SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
UnforcedError
Settler
Congratulations 
Great game and fantastic thread 
Great game and fantastic thread 
Great finish WastinTime. Way to bring it home!
Congrats Kaku on the finish and nice guts on the initial settler movement. I wonder what the map maker has to say on the initial location. Obviously KDC_Swede did his best to avoid an easy start without copper and early happy
Well, I don't remember all of my motivations on those decisions... but I will reveal that I don't know how many times I put jungles on the horses, only to remove it again...
Anyhoo... congrats to team Kaku, well played game, and I thought your initial settling gambit was going to tip the scales in your favor, but the Ducks should never be underestimated.
I still need to check before everythings official, but looks like a well-earned laurels here.
LowtherCastle
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Some interesting comparisons
PD got Sushi only 1 turn before us, T197, so it's interesting to compare how things looked 12 turns later, mainly because kossin posted screenshots on T209 and I haver our save for T210.
They were about 130 popcorns ahead of us and have 23 sushi corps compared to our 11. We could have spread them twice faster, because CPF and DPF were both able to go about 1 per turn, but we simply didn't.
Techwise we're about even. They have just decided to research Communism for the Kremlin, whil we went straight for AL. So that's another strategic lever they used.
Since we managed to get to 1 tech per turn anyway, I doubt they were 9 turns ahead of us. Their larger empire was "overkill" in a sense. They simply spread Sushi and Mining faster, plus I suspect the Kremlin, costing them 2 turns of research also gained them a couple of turns.
Top pics are PD, bottom pics are Kaku.
F2
F6
Corps
Paris
Duckweed's basic strategy was to get to the domination limit with as much population and appropriate infrstructure and beeline Sushi+Mining. For him, that basically meant Oracle-GLH-REX-Oxford-Warfare-Sushi. REX to the max and let the GLH and infrastructure pay for it. His basic idea (in my words) is that reaching Sushi with more cities and more population is better than less. As it turned out, that's precisely what happened.
One crucial constraint we had that they didn't was the espionage culture trick. Not having that contraint enabled them to mostly ignore cultural buildings (wonders) in their LCs. It also allowed them to focus strictly on GSes and GMs, along with the one GE, of course.
Ignoring the wonders we built for a moment, our REX, in contrast to PD's, was much more constrained. We worried about the maintenance of more expansion, rather than letting the maintenance slow down our research till we got to Sushi. Same thing once we got SUshi. We worried about maintenance instead of just cranking them out as fast as freaking possible.
As I see it, in hindsight, because this was not a full-fledged space colony game, the spreading of SUshi+Mining only need to carry on long enough to reach a science rate of 1 tech per turn, which we eventually did, but I wasn't aware that we had explicitly stated that as the criterion for spreading. I think that would have helped a lot.
As for the early wonders, Duckweed is convinced that the Pyramids, AP, and HG, were misguided choices, because the opportunity cost of not REXing was too large. I think he's definitely right about HG and AP (plus the 8t or whatever it was researching Theology). I'm stil not convinced about the Pyramids, at least in our situation, because Paris was kicking ass research-wise and I don't think oru REX would have been slowed all that much if we'd put the HG+AP hammers into settlers. If we have leveraged the Mids sooner, along with the cheap libraries, then I'm guessing we could have gotten Sushi at least 10 turns sooner.
Duckweed has an interesting technique for analyzing the value of wonders, h:g, and says GLH was worth something like 1:50 imn this scenario, whereas the mids were 1:1.
I have one fundamental disagreement with both Duckweed and WastinTime, concerning workers. BOth advocate a minimalist policy. WHile there may be maps where this makes sense, like archipelago, I think REX without abundant workers is lame, lame, lame. We had some beautiful river grassland land between us and Brennus which cultivated early enough would have paid handsome benefits. We were also constantly under developed imo. Throughout the entire game. We didn't have roads up on a timely basis. Our cities grew too fast to work improved tiles. Et cetera. In my books, REX without an abundance of workers is not REX. Improved tiles are what makes REX pay for itself. Maintenance costs are strongly weighted in favor of larger cities.
So my basic analysis is that this scenario was all about a Sushi beeline. I learned a lot about the basics of doing that. It involves an scenario-dependent mix of (in no particular order):
.
PD got Sushi only 1 turn before us, T197, so it's interesting to compare how things looked 12 turns later, mainly because kossin posted screenshots on T209 and I haver our save for T210.
They were about 130 popcorns ahead of us and have 23 sushi corps compared to our 11. We could have spread them twice faster, because CPF and DPF were both able to go about 1 per turn, but we simply didn't.
Techwise we're about even. They have just decided to research Communism for the Kremlin, whil we went straight for AL. So that's another strategic lever they used.
Since we managed to get to 1 tech per turn anyway, I doubt they were 9 turns ahead of us. Their larger empire was "overkill" in a sense. They simply spread Sushi and Mining faster, plus I suspect the Kremlin, costing them 2 turns of research also gained them a couple of turns.
Top pics are PD, bottom pics are Kaku.
F2
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
One crucial constraint we had that they didn't was the espionage culture trick. Not having that contraint enabled them to mostly ignore cultural buildings (wonders) in their LCs. It also allowed them to focus strictly on GSes and GMs, along with the one GE, of course.
Ignoring the wonders we built for a moment, our REX, in contrast to PD's, was much more constrained. We worried about the maintenance of more expansion, rather than letting the maintenance slow down our research till we got to Sushi. Same thing once we got SUshi. We worried about maintenance instead of just cranking them out as fast as freaking possible.
As I see it, in hindsight, because this was not a full-fledged space colony game, the spreading of SUshi+Mining only need to carry on long enough to reach a science rate of 1 tech per turn, which we eventually did, but I wasn't aware that we had explicitly stated that as the criterion for spreading. I think that would have helped a lot.
As for the early wonders, Duckweed is convinced that the Pyramids, AP, and HG, were misguided choices, because the opportunity cost of not REXing was too large. I think he's definitely right about HG and AP (plus the 8t or whatever it was researching Theology). I'm stil not convinced about the Pyramids, at least in our situation, because Paris was kicking ass research-wise and I don't think oru REX would have been slowed all that much if we'd put the HG+AP hammers into settlers. If we have leveraged the Mids sooner, along with the cheap libraries, then I'm guessing we could have gotten Sushi at least 10 turns sooner.
Duckweed has an interesting technique for analyzing the value of wonders, h:g, and says GLH was worth something like 1:50 imn this scenario, whereas the mids were 1:1.
Spoiler :
So my basic analysis is that this scenario was all about a Sushi beeline. I learned a lot about the basics of doing that. It involves an scenario-dependent mix of (in no particular order):
- worker stealing (we failed this miserably)
- exploration (we lagged here)
- Oracle slingshot
- GLH, mostly appropriate
- Mids, when appropriate
- REX toward the domination limit (we lagged here)
- Oxford
- warfare (lagged here, especially early, after we got chariots)
- Astro, when needed
- diplomacy, as always
.
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Walter_Wolf
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Let me tell a story. I remember LowtherCastle said we should check the comments on our power graph after some military tech trades .
I only found PD commenting on the power graph through the search. Will try to dig out other comments also
.
EDIT: From the US thread
lol
It's funny how people enjoy staring at the graphs (like I do of course) and trying to come to conclusions.
.Check out our score and power graphs. That'll garner some attention...we'll have to check thread posts dated October 16-17 after the game...
I hate building workers. So our REXing plan is fine with me.
Thanks for the map, kossin.
I'd like you execute your turnset and ideas to the end so I get something new. Besides, who can know your plans better than you.
On other teams:
Kaku seems to experience barb trouble (great power rise). Calamities which losing starting warrior can bring. Probably barb city appeared on desired spot.
PR have oracled CoL. That'd explain their culture lead. My guess is they are going for Cuir rush. Also, they have made that typical bureau+something civic switch (culture stagnated).
Shawshank is an enigma for now. Seems like they are playing like us scorewise but they settled on T0 iIrc.
I only found PD commenting on the power graph through the search. Will try to dig out other comments also
.EDIT: From the US thread
Re Other Teams: Are you sure they are fighting? City size adds to power rating so it could still be that alongside no other cities growing which is possible in that short turnset.
and I have a feeling they did a chariot rushThey are very good players after all and could probably pull it off without too much difficulty!
Edit again: Are you sure its a war? It doesn't seem probable bearing in mind that their power rating increased by 20 in 2 turns which is far too fast for even whipping out units! Plus chariot war=lots of losses which would mean their rating would have also dropped which it hasn't.
Edit again again: Yeah, war seems reasonable but I think they haven't started. Maybe they popped copper?
I promise I will stop flogging this dead horse now.
TGW seems reasonable! Kuku are very good at utilising it as well
You don't need to stop neilI've got a post coming up
lol
It's funny how people enjoy staring at the graphs (like I do of course) and trying to come to conclusions
.Attachments
Odd that they didn't immediately figure out Alphabet was the reason for the surge. Pretty normal 2000 BC occurrence in my games.
bcool
Deity
Ducks didn't research Communism just for the Krelim. I suspect they did it to fuel their espionage strategy for the legendary cities as well. The free great spy and espionage buildings were definitely something that would have helped that strategy.
Not having to worry about spreading religions and building cathedrals and other cultural wonders was a significant bonus I suspect too. The cost of the spies I'm sure was less than the culture worries we went through.
Walter_Wolf
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LowtherCastle
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Good point.
We'll see if they build any espionage buildings (I doubt it at that late date) but the GreatSpy mission would definitely help get their spending rate a bunch closer to the 50% bonus.
Kossin does mention explicitly Kremlin-boosted rushing of factories and coal plants. Heck, we whipped off ~59 pop 3 turns before getting the Kremlin...
ANother place where we were a bit out of synch...Very nice analysis LtC, they reflect my thoughts; Pyramids especially, but I can't be sure, Monarchy did help us whip heavily in several cities (like the army) but Representation also gets you faster to Calendar which pretty much solves the happy problem here... and faster to Astronomy... etc...
As part of my testing from T214~T236, what I found is that research starts exploding shortly after all factories and power arrive. When running 0% slider and not building any wealth/research, a large empire might hit up 4k beakers - at least it's what I observed. While quite a bit, it's not enough to 1-turn all the late game techs and it's fully dependent on your population available as specialists.
Whenever I kept spreading the corporations in 10 cities (5+5) during the Factory+CP buildup, I'd end up research 1 turn later. Converting all the commerce to beakers is really powerful when you have many research boosters.
Another benefit of Kremlin is that 90% of cities that whipped their Factories had enough overflow to complete CP in 1 turn... the GSPy guaranteed our last GA so that the beakers spent into Communism were paid back quite in full a few times.
As part of my testing from T214~T236, what I found is that research starts exploding shortly after all factories and power arrive. When running 0% slider and not building any wealth/research, a large empire might hit up 4k beakers - at least it's what I observed. While quite a bit, it's not enough to 1-turn all the late game techs and it's fully dependent on your population available as specialists.
Whenever I kept spreading the corporations in 10 cities (5+5) during the Factory+CP buildup, I'd end up research 1 turn later. Converting all the commerce to beakers is really powerful when you have many research boosters.
Another benefit of Kremlin is that 90% of cities that whipped their Factories had enough overflow to complete CP in 1 turn... the GSPy guaranteed our last GA so that the beakers spent into Communism were paid back quite in full a few times.
LowtherCastle
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I can't be sure either. Mono+Monarchy is a pretty steep cost at that point in the game for techs that we know we're getting for free. What it really boils down to is how many turns do the representation beakers save before Constitution, if any?
Spoiler :
in 5 cities. Did PD go beyond that in enough cities to overcome the cost of the warriors and spent beakers?Representation doesn't really come for quite a significant chunk of the middle game and when it does finally come, Sushi is right around the corner. Those rep beakers, combined with massive REX and cheap libraries, even without Castes, might add up to several turns saved, especially massive REX has created massive minatenance costs and a low research slider. If Representation permits the REX to approach the domination limit without slowing down the tech rate too much, that would be an added benefit. It would be interesting to compare your REX strategy with and without Pyramids, if they could be built after you captured the stone.
I don't understand what you mean by "1 turn later." Are you saying that you noticed a saturation point, beyond which it didn't pay off to build more corps?
I'm not quite sure what to think of the Pyramids. It's hard to imagine paying for 500h worth of delay to other stuff, unless you build them very late or have hammers to burn.
The Hanging Gardens are more subtle: they transfer hammers (well, citizens who will likely be whipped or else work food tiles) from your core (probably your best production city) to your small satellite cities. You can't just take the whip-hammers at face value.
The Hanging Gardens are more subtle: they transfer hammers (well, citizens who will likely be whipped or else work food tiles) from your core (probably your best production city) to your small satellite cities. You can't just take the whip-hammers at face value.
Walter_Wolf
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You also have to start collecting G engineer GPP points somehow if you want to be sure to get Mining inc. right?
I can't be sure either. Mono+Monarchy is a pretty steep cost at that point in the game for techs that we know we're getting for free. What it really boils down to is how many turns do the representation beakers save before Constitution, if any?Hereditary Rule appears to overcome an early problem: the happiness cap, a serious limiting factor in early growth, development and tech speed. As you point out, this advantage diminishes once you get Calendar. Or does it? Did PD actually go beyond the Calendar happy limits using HeredRule?Spoiler :
Quite excessively
Representation only adds +3
What I think it allowed us is to settle all those small islands earlier... which in the end provide more beakers earlier. Also, I think we were able to start warring a few turns earlier because of the ability to whip non-primary cities excessively. Which eventually translated in some cities slightly more prepared for Exec spamming.
We'll need to check after the game officially ends and we can freely check all saves.
Representation doesn't really come for quite a significant chunk of the middle game and when it does finally come, Sushi is right around the corner. Those rep beakers, combined with massive REX and cheap libraries, even without Castes, might add up to several turns saved, especially massive REX has created massive minatenance costs and a low research slider. If Representation permits the REX to approach the domination limit without slowing down the tech rate too much, that would be an added benefit. It would be interesting to compare your REX strategy with and without Pyramids, if they could be built after you captured the stone.
My gut feeling is Pyramids win by a few turns, even without stone. Even though the empire is not as strong due to all the hammers spent, the extra research to get Sushi a few turns earlier is better... each turn of Sushi in a city is equal to 3~4 turns of regular growth so that settling 1 city a few turns later can be made up for with earlier Sushi.
I don't understand what you mean by "1 turn later." Are you saying that you noticed a saturation point, beyond which it didn't pay off to build more corps?
Sorry, I meant that Factory+CP was more important than Executives in the big picture.
For example, if I kept spreading 5 Sushi and 5 Mining Execs per turn while whipping factories in other cities, I'd fall behind 1 turn on research compared to not building those executives... so I didn't build any executives while whipping factories.
Comments in bold.
Great work WastinTime!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bringing home the win with nerves of steel
Want to thank the team for their very hard work and countless hours of testing and sweating over the limitless moves.
Legendary cities with espionage spreads? Hah! I remember Bcool advocating that somewhere but I didn't think it could be done effectively on normal speed.
Will start reading other threads now.
Love this team!
Bringing home the win with nerves of steel
Want to thank the team for their very hard work and countless hours of testing and sweating over the limitless moves.
Legendary cities with espionage spreads? Hah! I remember Bcool advocating that somewhere but I didn't think it could be done effectively on normal speed.
Will start reading other threads now.
Love this team!
Thanks, Kossin. Congratulations to you folks!
===
Folks, we lost to this:
That's embarrassing.
Gah! How do those Ducks do it?
We had the sweet start, good corps, no major mistakes
Will stop skimming and try reading the threads/analysis
Congrats Duckies on that sweet sweet Gold!
Spoiler :
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The Spread Culture espionage mission:
I mentioned using the Spread Culture espionage mission about the time our Team was conquering Civs overseas. I had not envisioned using it in the way that Plastics Ducks did, although I was familar with one of the threads about using the mission to increase one's own Culture in another Civ's city, even to the extent of making it Legendary:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=286229
Here's an earlier thread that established that the mission affects only City Culture and _not_ Plot Culture in BtS 3.13, broke it in 3.17 and fixed both City Culture and Plot Culture in 3.19:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=262243
Here's Cultural Victory game won via only Espionage generated Culture:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336966
Revision history summary of the Spread Culture espionage mission:
If one carefully reads the article above (not the Cultural Game thread), it clearly states that in BtS 3.13, the Spread Culture mission affects only City Culture and not Plot (Tile) Culture. In my opinion this was a minor bug that significanly affected the Game. Going further into the Article one notes that they tried to fix the bug, but completely broke the Spread Culture espionage mission by providing only 0.05% Culture when mission text carely still said 5%. Near the end of the Article there is a report that not only fixes this major bug, but also changes implementation of the mission so Plot Culture is affected as one would expect. Presumably, there were no changes to how this mission was implemented from BtS 3.17 to 3.19.
Enjoy!
Sun Tzu Wu
I mentioned using the Spread Culture espionage mission about the time our Team was conquering Civs overseas. I had not envisioned using it in the way that Plastics Ducks did, although I was familar with one of the threads about using the mission to increase one's own Culture in another Civ's city, even to the extent of making it Legendary:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=286229
Here's an earlier thread that established that the mission affects only City Culture and _not_ Plot Culture in BtS 3.13, broke it in 3.17 and fixed both City Culture and Plot Culture in 3.19:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=262243
Here's Cultural Victory game won via only Espionage generated Culture:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=336966
Revision history summary of the Spread Culture espionage mission:
If one carefully reads the article above (not the Cultural Game thread), it clearly states that in BtS 3.13, the Spread Culture mission affects only City Culture and not Plot (Tile) Culture. In my opinion this was a minor bug that significanly affected the Game. Going further into the Article one notes that they tried to fix the bug, but completely broke the Spread Culture espionage mission by providing only 0.05% Culture when mission text carely still said 5%. Near the end of the Article there is a report that not only fixes this major bug, but also changes implementation of the mission so Plot Culture is affected as one would expect. Presumably, there were no changes to how this mission was implemented from BtS 3.17 to 3.19.
Enjoy!
Sun Tzu Wu
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
You got it all wrong or misspelled. Humbababa was a submarine in the ice south of Opis. Thank god Airships have such a long range and that we decided to cap Hammy. Otherwise we'd miss it. But it seems Humbaba was one of the decathlon objectives while Humbababa was just an easter egg, I guess. That is why, I think, other teams who only killed Mech Infantry were still given 10/10 objectives. It seems unfair to me and think other teams gained advantage over us by ignoring it. I'll ask for disqualification of all other teams who failed to notice Humbababa, or at least 10T of penalty to their finish date.
LowtherCastle
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Wazzup ZPV! Playing without you is a true adventure, like playing with half a brain.
The main problem in this game was that we had already sacrificed a lot of REX for the Oracle and GLH. If we had settled the Corn+Pigs+Fish early enough, then it could have served as a settler pump. We conserved forests instead and built those wonders. With you around, a few more of those forests would have probably been chopped, pronto-like.
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