SGOTM 16 - Pre-game Discussion

[Gumbolt]

Deleted.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

So you're saying that we need to achieve both VCs in 1 turn?

Then, since you're speaking of "basic logic", can you please tell us if any of the 10 objectives is mandatory? As i understand it, #10 is, but not #4. IMHO this have to be mandatory or things risk to be the same of all the latest SGs.
Again on logic, i strongly recommend to give a different weight to all the objectives, since they are far easier/difficult when you compare them.

To get objective #9, it is clear that the two victory conditions must either occur in the game winning turn or in the game winning turn and the turn after as explicily allowed by the rules. There can be no other correct interpretation of objective #9 and the rules as currently stated.

None of the objectives is required to complete the game successfully (win, but not necessarily place in the top three). As stated in the rules, some objectives are harder than others. Objective #10 is probably the easiest one to acheive, but no where does it say that a team must acheive it. In a practical sense, all teams will probably acheive objective #10, so why be concerned that it is mandatory or not?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Please clarify objective #1 by stating that Humbaba in the game must be killed, either by the player or other game entity. To me at least, as currently stated it seems that Humbaba is dead before the game starts and the team must take some unspecified revenge for his death. Thus, my original question on objective #1.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ZerrorR]

:lurkeralert: I am gonna watch this one

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The objectives to be achieved in your final save are listed below. You are allowed to do anything during the turn after you click “Wait…just…one…more…turn”, but you may not end that turn and advance to the next turn. Only saves made during your turn at that point will be accepted as final entries.
...
You fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination. (For example, your spaceship arrives on Alpha Centauri the same turn you get Domination, that’s two. If you achieve domination on the same turn as conquest victory, then you need one more victory condition to fulfil this condition. Understood? ).
...

The first paragragh above allows play in the turn immediately after the official BtS win to complete remaining objectives, including presumably objective #9. So the rules permit both Victory Conditions of objective #9 to occur in the winning turn, but also allow of one victory condition occuring in the winning turn and the second victory condition in the following turn. For example, one could win a Diplomatic Victory and in following turn meet all conditons for a Conquest or Domination Victory.

If this is not the case, the rules must be modified to clarify when the two victory conditions must occur. The current rules clearly imply a window of two turns.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Gumbolt]

deleted.

 

[AlanH]

There is no ambiguity. You can complete any or all of the ten objectives at any time up to the point of your final save. Your final save must be made before you hit end of turn in the turn after the victory ceremony.

by definition, you cannot achieve your first victory condition more than one turn before the victory ceremony, so the window to achieve condition #9 is two turns of play, with one between-turn sequence.

No clarification is needed.

 

[AlanH]

Please clarify objective #1 by stating that Humbaba in the game must be killed, either by the player or other game entity. To me at least, as currently stated it seems that Humbaba is dead before the game starts and the team must take some unspecified revenge for his death. Thus, my original question on objective #1.

Sun Tzu Wu

Why? The conditions are required to apply by the end of the game, not at the beginning. Your understanding of English is very weird!

 

[Gumbolt]

Deleted.

 

[AlanH]

So you're saying that we need to achieve both VCs in 1 turn?

No. Within two turns.

Then, since you're speaking of "basic logic", can you please tell us if any of the 10 objectives is mandatory?

No. Each one counts as one objective, and the team with the most objectives achieved wins.

As i understand it, #10 is, but not #4.

Neither are. If you don't complete 100 turns in two months you have failed to achieve one of the ten objectives. Of course, if you fail to finish the game in four months you lose, but that is not part of objective #10.

IMHO this have to be mandatory or things risk to be the same of all the latest SGs.
Again on logic, i strongly recommend to give a different weight to all the objectives, since they are far easier/difficult when you compare them.

That's not the way Swede has set up the game rules. Live with it.

 

[AlanH]

Would be strange, i understand that we can just play on after "victory 1".
No point in forcing that kind of timing, and i think that has no place here cos would be in no way connected to playing a good game, and then losing cos you got "victory 2" 1 turn too late..
and if iam wrong, please please change this.

I don't know whether I understand this point. If you do not achieve the second victory condition within the same turn as the first victory, you have an opportunity to complete it in the next turn before submitting your final save. If you don't, then you have lost one of the ten objectives. The effect of this on the laurels depends whether another team scores more objectives overall than you do.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Why? The conditions are required to apply by the end of the game, not at the beginning. Your understanding of English is very weird.

Please make the change for all the non-English speakers in GOTM-16. Not just for me; I now understand objective #1, maybe?

That objective #1 is ambiguous to at least one participant (me) and possibly others should be reason enough to change it.

It's probably easier to just change it than go back and forth explaining why it should be changed and why is seems adequate to you and some players.

Objective #1 is still just a statement of fact; it is not imperative statement that literally says what a team must do to satisfy it.

Also, as far as we know Humbaba may not ever be alive in SGTOM-16 (isn't he already dead in BOTM-41 of which I have no knowledge or motivation to find out) and objective #1 is a red herring to confuse and confound team players.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mylene]

Thanks for taking your time, Alan
Seems i over reacted (like most here would expect from me by now ), seemed strange at first glance..timing 2 victory conditions. After thinking it over, it's not really that hard to use Great Artists for a 3rd legendary for example after victory 1 comes in.
Might be a bit tricky on some combos, but nps.

 

[AlanH]

Please make the change for all the non-English speakers in GOTM-16. Not just for me; I now understand objective #1, maybe?

That objective #1 is ambiguous to at least one participant (me) and possibly others should be reason enough to change it.

I'll change it only because I take no pleasure in these discussions.

Also, as far as we know Humbaba may not ever be alive in SGTOM-16 (isn't he already dead in BOTM-41 of which I have no knowledge or motivation to find out) and objective #1 is a red herring to confuse and confound team players.

Sun Tzu Wu

If he were already dead at turn #0, then every team would have achieved one objective with no effort. Hardly a worthwhile challenge to players of your distinction

[EDIT] Actually, as I edited it, I realised that Swede has already stated that Humbaba "... now lives in a fairly secluded place". There was no ambiguity.

 

[pigswill]

Another silly question. How would we know if Humbaba was killed by an AI? (to avoid many turns of pointless searching).

 

[AlanH]

I believe it is pretty unlikely that he'll be bumped off by the AI.

I might be persuaded to include a notice that he's still alive in your save submission report, as we did for the Wizard of Oz. I'll need to discuss with Swede to see how practical that is.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

[EDIT] Actually, as I edited it, I realised that Swede has already stated that Humbaba "... now lives in a fairly secluded place". There was no ambiguity.

I can't tell which part of the descriptions are just story embellishments, which are genuine clues and which are just plain red herrings.

So we can take this to be a genuine clue.*

* Don't trust the map maker.

Didn't you just say you don't like such discussions? So why bother to edit your post? I was pleased with your agreement to make the change, but now you imply you didn't need to make the change after all? Let's please just drop the subject. Objective #1 looks fine now. That's all that should matter.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[lymond]

Just looking for a little clarification on Objective #10 as I'm a bit dense:

Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. **

I take this is basically a normal submission of the game, a completed turnset by player X. Hypothetically, if we ...say...submit a game that is on or over 100 turns in one month or thereabouts, we have completed this objective and don't have to think about it again. Is there anything special that we have to do differently with the Turn 100 submission? Is there anything we need to do at the 2 month mark even if we submitted a Turn100 save weeks earlier?

Also, for clarification:

This SGOTM is strictly about achieving some or all of the stated 10 objectives in the earliest timeframe. Earliest VC is not a factor and VCs are only a factor in that at least 1 must be achieved, as well as 1 of the objectives requires 2VCs simultaneously. Technically though, you could qualify for a Laurel without actually achieving any Victory Condition, achieving 9 of the 10.

 

[lymond]

Clarification of this objective too please:

You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident.

Are we required to be UN Sec General or AP Res at the point of achieving victory, or is it that we have attained this designation at some point during the game. (I've assumed the former, but just want to make sure)

 

[sossos]

Clarification of this objective too please:



Are we required to be UN Sec General or AP Res at the point of achieving victory, or is it that we have attained this designation at some point during the game. (I've assumed the former, but just want to make sure)

My understanding: All clauses are judged at the time when "victory" and "one more turn?" pop up, so you need to be US or AP leader at that time to meet that objective.