SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm not in favor of polluting our Great Spy GPPs with Scientists. Actually wishing to get a Great Scientist, the easiest Great Person to generate, rather than a Great Spy, the hardest to get early ... I have to agree with Seraiel on this point. It should be possible to get both our early 100% Great Spy and two Great Scientists. Although, I must agree with Seraiel that double bulbing Education is a waste of a second GS. A GS will bulb about 2/3 of Education, especially with all the GK/Joao population we plan to capture soon. Frankly, one GS to bulb 2/3 of Education will suffice. We are going to need a lot of Great People in this game.

Also, Music is compable to Metal Casting. Getting the free GA ftom Music is huge. We can use several GAs.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

I know, I never double bulb Edu either, but I also never drag my butt on the way there. It think this is a good way to catch up. We can trade Edu much earlier than normal.

Let's look at the numbers:

Our population is 16. Let's assume we get to 30 by T96 (Paper)

A bulb will give us 1500 + 3 *30 = 1590
Two bulbs is 3180.

Edu is : 2925

Not much waste. People waste more than that when they bulb Philo (which I never do)
If a GS was really 2/3 Edu, then we'd be wasting 2000 beakers. I agree, we won't do that.
So are my numbers wrong or is the assumption that a GS gives 2/3 of Education wrong?

-----
Don't forget, there isn't much chance we get a GS anyway. But we can get a GSpy 9 turns sooner, and then there's plenty of time to get a GS for Edu.

I think we have 3 votes for, 2 against, so we're going to gamble the GSpy and rush it. Could I get a vote on Captialist NOT working the gold for 1 turn....

 

[WastinTime]

I chose to finish the chop 1E of PigsCity because it's only 2 turns left and it gets us a HA 1 turn sooner. Even tho I move Dixie to chop before she completes the cottage, Alotta will be able to complete it for her by the time PigsCity grows to size 4. I'd rather not whip PigsCity much for a while. If I did, it would probably be 5->3.

 

[Seraiel]

Now you made me unsure about the bulbing values... I played a lot of different speeds / sizes in the last time. I'm quite sure though that 1/2 is on the larger maps and that a GS-bulb on a standard-sizes map is 2/3...

How about simply giving us a GS in test-game, giving us Paper and checking? If nobody did I'll do so in 20min when I get back out of town.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok. Wastin's Math on the GS is right. I'm sure that STW and me were right too, so our GS would really only give 1500 Beakers which is 1/2 of Education, and the GSs STW and me talked of must have given more because of higher pop.

Trading a GS for a Great Spy however ist wrong, absolutely wrong!

I just checked in the test-game and the Great spy gave 3000 EP and that without being in medieval era (I think Great Spies scale with era) . 3000 is twice as much as 1500 and the costs of Beakers to EP if stealing from Mansa are almost the same if having stationary bonus.

I don't wanna put Wastin, bcool or Kaitzilla down but you're making the wrong decision twice, because the GA from Music gets us at least 1 additional Great Person and Music doesn't cost any more than Metalcasting in our case, so what you plan is wasting 3000 Beakers!!!!

We currently research at 80 BPT and the techs which we have to research still are thousands of , we currently have the chance to get enough Gold to research with 100% 'til the end of time, we have the chance to get all techs and we have the chance for an extra GP if researching Music and waiting for the Great Spy. GS is wrong choice, Metalcasting is wrong choice and bulbing is also wrong, because an Academy will create more Beakers over time then Education for which we currently have no use!

@ Wastin: Forget that stupid game plz, it's absolutely not compareable to our game and we're making the wrong choices here.

S.

 

[bcool]

a bulb in the test game on T68 gives 1542 research. So WastinTime is right that there is little waste if we double bulb education (2925), but as everyone knows the odds of us getting 2 great scientists is very low.

x post

I can see Seraiel is very against Metal Casting and accelerating the great person from the capital.

Metal Casting
advantages
earlier forges (better whips, happiness, and better chops and hammers we wouldn't get otherwise by delaying metal casting and forges)--forges mean we can build/whip universities faster and thus a faster Oxford etc. as one example.
triremes (options for protecting our fish and eventually taking out GoldMember)
ability to run engineers (rather important for our grand strategy) (despite what Seraiel has mentioned. I have found it difficult to get a great engineer in many of my games. Mining Inc plays a large role in our grand strategy)
ability to trade for theology but requires 2 or 3 turns on theology
Can get full trade value from Gandhi for it.

Music
free great artist (very nice perhaps for a golden age or to save for the Swinger's Pad)
ability to trade for theology no turns require on theology
ability to build culture (can accelerate growth of captured and new cities by unlocking better tiles)

Great spy at 100% or Great spy at 85%?

So stealing from Mansa is rarely even required... So just because we can steal techs from Mansa doesn't mean it makes sense to steal the techs from Mansa...
We can trade for all the techs that Mansa will get especially if we get paper and education fast. We can TRADE for his techs we don't have to steal them.

It seems stealing Mansa's treasury isn't quite as effective as Kaitzilla first thought. Mansa has to have a large part of his population in one city.

But this is a mountain out of a mole hill isn't it? I don't think the odds of a 2 great scientists will be more than 15%. I like accelerating our great people production and giving us more options.

Starting on universities early and unlocking Oxford is important for a big tech game.

 

[Seraiel]

The odds will be between 15 and 18% (that's not low for me) and your post still leaves Music up to discussion, because we still don't have a clear vote on that one, and what I'm saying is that I want you to wake up and see what you plan . Wastin was at me for delaying research by 2T for which there was good reason but what you plan is to waste 3000 points just because you cannot wait and want to win this game now, which it can't.

EDIT

We need to research Music because it's free whatever, we have to hold our hands still, build roads to Mansa, build Spies and wait for that Great Spy just a little longer because Great Spy > Great Scientist, and we have to found an Academy because that one will be a greater pay-off then Education which is an almost useless tech.

 

[Seraiel]

That's no fair argument you're making bcool.

The great Spy is worth 1500 more points only 10T later, and you talk like we would never get Universities and as if Oxford was the deal. I agree that unlocking Oxford early is an advantage, but the 10T or what we get it earlier won't accumulate into 1500 points, maybe some hundred, but not 1500.

Also, I cannot believe that you want to trade a little earlier Forges (again it's not like we won't get them at all, we'll only get them a little later) against a Great Person! You didn't want to trade 40 against 160 , now you're willing to trade maybe a few hundreds of Hammers against thousands of Science!

 

[WastinTime]

I doubt we even want an Academy. First off, our capital is not a super-capital. That's strike one.

When are you planning to get your Academy up Seraiel? You want a Spy T86 and then a GS ~T94 (for Edu) and then finally your Academy around 1AD (T115).

I assume you'd use one GS to bulb Edu, but let's say you don't and instead build Academy T94:

I'm still not sure that Academy would pay off. We can use that GS to bulb something like Electricity for 2000+ beakers (because of our large population).

This is a short game (compared to a space race). In a perfect game, we want our tech to stop around T150. That's not many turns for the academy to pay back. Keep in mind, an Academy, if it existed now, would only produce 17 beakers/turn.

Remember, at the end of the game, we go 100% espionage, so the last turns of the game don't even use the beaker mulitpliers.

------

I don't follow your '3000 points' argument. Typically, what a team member might do to be convincing is to play the test game quickly out beyond Education. One with a GSpy, one with a double bulb, or an academy and post the results. Naturally, you can speed things up by cheating in Worldbuilder. You don't have to do the GK war and move all that military, just edit the cities, but of course make the same edits on the same turns in each run thru. I would love to see how fast you can get to Mining Inc.

 

[WastinTime]

So I was teasing about "wishing" for a GS first (although part of me wants to try it out in a test game). The spy might be nice if it could get most of Mansa's money. But, like bcool, I don't see a lot of value in stealing techs. That's spending 'points' on stuff we can get for free. I feel that we can steal some of Mansa's money with the Esp points we have naturally and the rest we can get when we make lob-sided tech trades. Education for tech+tech+tech+ cash. Honestly, if it weren't for those trade mission cash bombs, I wouldn't even consider burning a GSpy on Mansa. That's 3000 beakers we need at the end of the game to get legendary culture.

Hopefully we can get 1000 conquest gold over the next 40 turns to help our treasury. And another 1000 in tech trades/ begs, resource trades, etc.

 

[Seraiel]

Our capital is ok, with Bureacracy an Academy will be 30 / turn. Bulb is 1500 , 1500 / 30 is 50, so after 50 turns of 100% research, the Academy will outrun the bulb...

I'm btw. not even convinced that Mining is anything we want. What we want is max-research, because the sooner we reach Paratroopers, the earlier we'll win. We can whip all cities down to size 1 once we got that, researching Mining will only delay the time at which we get Paratroopers and the extra-Hammers we have to invest into the Execs will take time to pay off. Argument of Mining increasing research is wrong because 1 comes at the cost of 1 , so as long as we aren't able to sustain 100% research Mining will give nothing, and I doubt very much that we can sustain that, because I even can't sustain 100% in my current game where I have Rathäuser (BurgerKing UB) , Banks, Markets and Grocers in all cities and that game has Mining.

This is no Sushi-game where Mining gives 30 and where the cities have to be large in the end Wastin, it's a game with only little Mining-resources so Mining will give only little Hammers, and it's a game on normal speed where Mining-Inc-Execs-cold-whips would be 5-pop, that could be 5-pop (or 3 if we'd do standard-whips) that could produce research, so instead of beelining (like you said) we'd lose research at 2 ends that would have to pay back.

Production of Mining Inc. doesn't matter because of the possibility to whip everything down in the end.

And I'd love to play out 2 test-games, but I'm currently still absolutely devastated and playing is a horrible experience for me.

I still think that what I said was / is right and that you're both having the wrong picture.

And what I'd like would be to research Music, start a GA, get 2 GSs instead of 1 and use one for bulbing Edu and 1 for an Academy. It's really not as if the extra-Hammers from Forges were good enough to make up for an extra GP, Hammers are really not a big deal in this game, research is though, and the later advantage sometimes is the better one (if it's great enough, and 1500 more points from the Great Spy are a lot) .

 

[Seraiel]

So I was teasing about "wishing" for a GS first (although part of me wants to try it out in a test game). The spy might be nice if it could get most of Mansa's money. But, like bcool, I don't see a lot of value in stealing techs. That's spending 'points' on stuff we can get for free. I feel that we can steal some of Mansa's money with the Esp points we have naturally and the rest we can get when we make lob-sided tech trades. Education for tech+tech+tech+ cash. Honestly, if it weren't for those trade mission cash bombs, I wouldn't even consider burning a GSpy on Mansa. That's 3000 beakers we need at the end of the game to get legendary culture.

Hopefully we can get 1000 conquest gold over the next 40 turns to help our treasury. And another 1000 in tech trades/ begs, resource trades, etc.

The picture is interesting. However I think that efficiency will play a role at some time. Once we've conquered Genghis and Joao, we'll be at -100 GPT without a problem, and then those 1000 you speak of will be just enough to pay 10 turns and I assume that we'll then wish us we had waited for the Great Spy because he would be another 10T of 100% research that we wouldn't have to finance by, yes, what.

And if you say 3000 Beakers in the end is gonna save us more turns then stealing the techs from him now, great! Then we finally agree, we can research Music, start a GA, get 2 GSs, use 1 for a bulb and 1 for an Academy (Math in last post should have been enough imho) and we'll evaluate on whether stealing 1000 will save us more turns or whether 3000 instant-EP for which we don't have to run the Espionage-Slider in the end will

 

[WastinTime]

I convinced myself that Mining Inc is good in this test game

It shows that we can win the game ~25 turns after we get Mining Inc.

Our beakers jump from 1800 to 4000 in only 15 turns. If you'd like to play out the end of the game without Mining Inc, I'd like to see the result.

 

[bcool]

I think the argument for Metal Casting is that it is a tech we need while Music is not.

Metal Casting is a tech that takes us towards the techs we will eventually need and not a distraction.

Trading Metal Casting (and paper and education) as quickly as possible to the other AI is something that we want. This makes the other AI research techs for us. Hell we want Mansa to get Liberalism asap so we can trade for the tech he chooses for free. Trading for that will give us more research than the great artist...

Researching Music, yes gets us a great person and theology, but it is a distraction!

Trading for techs we need from the AI will accelerate how fast we can get to paratroopers and Mass Media.

A Golden Age for 8 turns doesn't give us another great scientist, it just allows us to get the great person that we will eventually get a bit faster.

I don't think teching straight along the path we want is slowing us down. Teching along the path we want encourages the AI to tech things we want for us. If we get to trade for machinery because we teched metal casting instead of music that is 1000 research we wouldn't get otherwise.
It doesn't take too many trades like that to make us for the missing great artist.

 

[WastinTime]

I'm not a big fan of burning GA on a GAge. We don't even have MoM. Or any plan to get it very soon. I'm just not convinced. It's interesting to me that the idea of going Music for a GA didn't even come up until we are now just 1 tech away from it. I understand the temptation, but I believe distractions like this are traps that many players fall into. They can't figure out how some players can get Mining Inc T140 (our goal this game) or BC sushi. It seems impossible to them because they don't remain commited to the goal. A 10 turn delay here, another 10 turns there.

A great artist has little value and cannot make up for a 10 turn delay. A golden age? we can start that with a GS, later, when we have MoM. Save it for bulbing MassMedia? We will be doing 4000 beakers/turn by then! An artist bulb might not even save 1 turn!

The only way that artist would tempt me is if we could use it to bulb something on the way to Edu or maybe on the way to Mining Inc.

 

[WastinTime]

Ok, so I think we have at least 3 strong opinions for MC. Since Seraiel is not planning to run a test game, I don't see anyone changing their minds. I'd like to move on. Can I get a go on the PPP?

btw, Great discussion today guys!

 

[WastinTime]

I'm not gonna play tonight, but I'd sure like to get started in the morning (in about 10 hours). So there's still time for test games/ discussion.

 

[Seraiel]

You have fought me down acceptably, .

As this is the opponents-speech I just want to say that I was also able to reach Sushi in the BC's and that with Music distraction (doesn't count though, because I played a Huge map and ran a special Super-GA strategy where I bulbed through from Chemistry towards Medicine, I don't think that that strategy is viable on smaller maps and with non-Incan leaders or at least at our current time where our cities are so small) .

I'd still like you to play at least 1 or 2 turns today though if possible Wastin, no idea which time it is and how fit you still are but every turn counts atm. and we got the goals now, what's coming up should be actually really easy and it could maybe bring you in a better position for continueing tomorrow. I'll stay awake and check with you, and you can be sure that I'll check that game you talked of. Mining Inc. doubling Research in 10T? Wanna see that. Do you by chance still have the game from the turn at which you set of to Railroads? Having that game wouldn't only save me a lot of time but would make the result a lot more compareable.

Sera

 

[WastinTime]

I'm not comfortable playing the next turn because I can't get anyone to agree to the PPP, especially Captialist NOT working the gold next turn just so I can whip the city. Here's another plan:

Capitalist

T74 - Wealth; Wheat,Gold, Marble, x3FPCottage
T75-7 - HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage,2xScientists
(GP born 1 turn later)
T78 - whip HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage

The one turn on Wealth allows the city to still get a 2whip in. The GSpy and the HA are delayed 1 turn, but the HA was going to be too late for the T79 war anyway.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, what I still don't understand why we are now pushing so hard for GPs if we want to use them in 15-20 turns.

And did you see the math on the Academy?