# SGOTM 18 - Kakumeika

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jul 31, 2013.

1. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Has anyone noticed that Mansa only had 10g available when we went to trade math?
Does that mean he burned up all his money upgrading troops, and running 100% research?
Is there no more money to steal?

Edit: I guess not since the espionage screen still says almost 4000 for steal treasury.

2. ### KaitzillaLord Croissant

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I'm trying to calculate exactly how much gold he has right now.

Miss LowtherCastle's expertise here.

I took at stab at why the AI is willing to trade what gold it has here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12774570&postcount=774

He is only offering 10 because we begged 70 and traded for 200 more already.

He needs more turns to pass or his population to grow further before he will trade us more of his gold.

Hmm, this says I was wrong about stealing half the treasury per attempt by targeting the capital.
The amount is the ratio of the city pop/civ pop.
So half the treasury is only stolen if the target city has half a civilization's population.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/espionage_cost.php

**Edit**
Ok, starting to get a handle on how to calculate Mansa's gold from the espionage screen.
Need to know how much population he has in each of his cities though.

**Edit 2***
Ok, don't need to know how much population Mansa has in each city, just need passive espionage data for each of Mansa's cities.
Then calculate how much gold can be stolen for each of Mansa's cities, add them all up, and that is how much gold Mansa has in treasury.

So with -20% trade routes, +39% distance penalty, and +30% spending penalty, Mansa's capital has roughly 4138/0.8/1.39/1.30= 2862 base or 2862/3= 954 to steal.
This might be more than half his gold, or less than half depending on the ratio of the capital pop to the total empire population.
Probably a bit more than half since his capital is so big currently compared to how old his other 2 cities are (Size 10 on Turn 71!).

3. ### bcoolChieftain

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I too think great scientists are the way to go. If we don't get the great spy, I won't cry too much. The great spy would be great don't get me wrong, but its pay off is quite delayed, while the great scientists are not so much.

I think we would be best off accelerating both the great person from the capital and from Shark. (as Kaitzilla and WastinTime support)

4. ### SeraielChieftain

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We didn't get a clear decision on MC or Music imho so I myself made the call like you told me and delayed the research by 2T. Worst case would have been that Mansa would have started on Metalcasting and then we'd have lost a lot of Gold / Research. Chances for him to build the AP are relatively small with so little cities and with being in war.

I built both roads like you planned it, and those Horse Archers aren't delayed. Maybe 1 of the rivers is off in the test-game, but the HAs from Capitalist can go exactly to 1tile short of Pigs-city, and cross the river at Pigs + move onto the top of the mountain at the chokepoint on the next move.

I'm sure that the Worker was built for a probable OF-whip into the GL. I'd also take an angry citizen instead of wasting Food / Hammers / Growth to save 1 GPT.

The Real-game micro was off at this point because I whipped the Spear from Washington in the test-game. I admit that I should have corrected this. I personally think that nothing serious has happened because we don't need a Barracks in every city right now, it's perfectly possible to attack with the unpromoted HAs later to farm of the troops that got wounded but not killed by the promoted ones, that's how I do it in my own games often, so not building the Barracks in that city in this case means we'll have 2 HA for the attack on Genghis which imo is worth more than if 1 promoted HA.

I'm against this and STW would be too, but seems you got 3 votes. I just hope you're right and that we don't get a Great Scientist, because the bulbing-value is seriously inferior to the infiltration mission.

I just want to add that if we fail here and get a GS, we invested 40T into a Great Spy and then couldn't wait 10T and that we could have built the GL in capitalist like I said earlier already.

5. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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I see now the mistake. You started the Cottage NW of Pigs 1 turn early (even tho it will not finish early) and the road 1 turn late. Not a big deal of course, but another lesson to follow the PPP.

6. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Another great reason for MC (forges) is that we need to run GE's. I usually don't build TGL because it makes it such a gamble that we will get a GE in time for mining. I normally get sushi first, but this time we're going straight to mining Inc, so not much time.

7. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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ok, we can pass on the barracks in Washington, but I see quite a few troops coming out of there (catapults some day). But, we do need a library there soon and it wouldn't hurt to let that city grow on cottages.

I also would like to see a plan (not necessarily from the active player) on the idea to give the city away to clear anger. We could maybe whip a spy or two to get it down from size 2->1

8. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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There's no way for us to 'fail' here. Either GP is good.
(For the record, I'm hoping for GS at low odds.)

RE: TGL in the capital, I don't like mixing GP. That could have caused us to get 2 Gspys and not have even one for bulbing Edu. That would be the only true way we could have failed here.

So, we need a new PPP for the major build changes and worker actions were not planned out any farther yet. Are you up for it, Seraiel? or Passing?

9. ### SeraielChieftain

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I thought a lot about that move and just checked the PPP again. Error was that I built the Road 1NW of Pigs with both Workers instead of moving 1 directly to 2NW. I think that 1 HA is now 1T earlier and 1 will be 1T later because of that.

That's actually a really good reason for Metalcasting, though I still think that the GA from Music and Music itself would be of greater use. I personally see neither problems with getting a GE, I always manage to get one by running Engineers over all cities and finishing the GPs from them by starting a GA in which I switch to Caste + PC and mix in enough Scientists / Merchants for them to complete. Plz see that this is actually another reason for us to get the GA from Music.

I'm personally against that plan. I think it's very creative, but in case that Genghis conquers the city with a HA, we might lose 1 HA + the Granary for reconquering it. That's too much imho to just reduce some whipping anger, something we could also do by chopping the Forrest 1E of the city and building another riverside Mine on it (plz also remember my arguments for riverside Mines, being that they're 1. awesome tiles (they're better than a Cottage or a Hamlet from the start) , that University-cities 2. need Hammers to reduce the whip and that 3. reducing Food after such extreme whipping is something good) .

Then we're enemies on this one. I think that the infiltration Mission is our chance to either get all techs or to build Scotland Yard and by that cheaply steal some very expensive late-game technologies in the future. Double bulbing is imho overkill as 1 bulb already finishes Education like 2/3 on those settings.

I'd also like to make another argument for the GA from Music here, because running a GA once the NE is set up would greatly help with GP-Generation and this game is a game that is won over the long-run. We have need for as many GSs as we can get because most of the techs we need can be bulbed, there's NN for us to push so hard towards Education, because Education is an almost completely useless tech in our case as we don't plan on researching Liberalism. You want to make up for a chance we couldn't take until now, being that we get early Theology from Mansa, but I think that you're currently making things worse and should see how good our position still is currently and that we have to focus on the whole game and not only short-term goals.

And I think that anybody could continue the game from its current state, as no real knowledge is needed atm. except the few things I noted. I could play it myself if nobody is found to continue playing, I'd personally favour a little break in which I stay on the consultant side greatly.

Seraiel

10. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Seraiel. It's your call, but playing on without a plan is not an option. Either put up a PPP in the next couple hours or pass the TS.

11. ### SeraielChieftain

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I said I wanted to pass over the game to the next player if possible because I needed a break. Are you willing to take over Wastin? Then do it .

12. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Ok, I have the save.

I'll put out a quick PPP for the next few turns, then a Goal PPP for the full turnset. Today. Pls check back later today if you can. I may want to play the turns that make up the end of the last TS if we all are still in agreement.

13. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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PPP for T74.5 - 85

Grand Strategy:
Mission summary: Recapture SP, make it legendary with espionage, raze Dr. Evil's Lair w/Paratroopers, Achieve Diplo victory with votes from Mansa and Gandhi (Dr. Evil as opponent)

General:
- Maintain relationship with Mansa and Gandhi. Give in to Mansa demands. Probably
also give in to Gandhi for +diplo, but recall Gandhi doesn't give -1 diplo for some things.
Work on building a shared religion w/Mansa + Gandhi.
- Don't tech Liberalism cause then we have to have Free Religion
- Since Paratroopers require Railroad and Assembly Line, plan for a GE for Mining Inc and get this corp up as fast as possible.
- Empire/War plan: Capture cities fast. Fast does not imply: early. We don't need to start war ASAP, but once we do, make it quick. Take all GK, Joao, and Goldmember cities + Swinger's Pad and raze Dr. Evil's Lair. Take a lot of Dr. Evil's cities too, but eventually plan to gift him enough population to be our opponent for Diplo Victory. Try to share wars with M & G.

Short term goals (in order):
1) Beeline Alpha.
2) Expand peacefully at first since no neighbors are close (possible exception a short worker stealing war w/ GK)
3) Get at least currency before considering World War I.
4) Trade for Theology, tech Paper and bulb/tech Education!
5) World War I We were not able to get anyone into our later GK wars: DO NOT kill GK scouts because we will try to keep GK alive with "Require Complete Kills". The goal being +Shared War diplo. Take all GK cities. Will use Horse Archers for a fast attack.
6*) Start capturing Goldmember/Dr. Evil cities that are close to our empire (*on-going goal).
7) Beeline Edu/Oxford (plan ahead for a GS bulb)
8) World War II: Joao. Get M + G to join war and avoid "-Declared on our friend". Take all Joao cities.
9) Recapture Swinger's Pad (possibly do this before WWII, but it's probably not desirable)
10) Beeline Mining Inc/Assembly Line
11) Only after Mining, build spies and get them in SP. Move the Palace next to Swinger's Pad.
12) Beeline MassMedia, start the UN (no need to rush with GE, gold, etc.)
13) Run 100% espionage slider to get Swinger's Pad to legendary with spies (research is completed with specialist and build Research because of Mining Inc)
14) Beeline Paratroopers: Raze Dr. Evil's Lair
15) Diplo victory with votes from Mansa and Gandhi (Dr. Evil as opponent)

Techs - 100%
T74-80 Metal Casting
T81-2 Theo
T83-T92? Paper

T93?-T105 Education (estimate)

(T89 GS for Edu would be the earliest we could get one. We will delay this for Forge, Trireme, NE )

Consider Trade Gandhi HBR for Medi+gold

Cities
Capitalist
6 turns of Whip Anger

T74 - Research; Wheat,Gold, Marble, x3FPCottage
T75-7 - HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage,2xScientists
(GP born)
T78 - whip HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage

T79-80 HA; Wheat,Gold,Marble,x3FPCottage
T81 Forge; Wheat,Gold,Marble,x3FPCottage
T82 Forge; Wheat,Gold,Shared Cottage(to grow),x3FPCottage
T83 whip Forge; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage
T84 Monastery/HA?; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage
T85 tbd; Wheat,Gold,Marble,x3FPCottage
(Grow the city to 7, then maybe Settler? for Stone)

(old plan)
T74 - HA; Wheat,x3FPCottage, 2xScientists (no gold for 1 turn!?)
T75-6 - HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage,2xScientists
(GP born)
T77 - whip HA; Wheat,Gold,x3FPCottage
(grow the capital, work cottages and get serious about science)
(plan for T81 Forge)

Pigs City
27 turns of Whip Anger
T74-6 - HA; Pigs,Horses,Cottage(s)
T77-79 - HA; Pigs,Horses,Cottage(s),
T80 - HA; Pigs,Horses,Cottage(s),switch to new shared cottage
T81 Forge; Pigs,Horses,3xCottages
T82 whip Forge; Pigs,Horses,cottage, SharedCottage
T83- HA; Pigs,Horses,2xSharedCottages
(lots of HA to finish GK and/or move on Joao. Library soon)

Shark
25 turns of Whip Anger

T74-7 - HA; Fish,Bronze,Farm,Scientist
T78 - HA; Fish,Bronze,Farm,Scientist, 1unhappy
T78-79 - HA; Fish,Bronze,Farm,2xScientist
T80 - HA; Fish,Bronze,Farm,FP(to grow in2), Scientist
T81 - Forge; Fish,Bronze,Farm,FP,Scientist
T83 - Whip Forge; Fish,Bronze,Farm,Scientist
T84 - NE (capture overflow); Fish,Bronze,Farm,Engineer
T85 - Trireme; Fish,Bronze,Farm,Engineer
T86 - Whip Trireme; Fish,Bronze,Farm
T87 - NE; Fish,Bronze,Farm,Engineer

Washington
20 turns of Whip Anger
T74 whipped HA; Corn, Fur
T75-7 HA; Corn, Fur, mine (perfectly timed for an attack on Old Sarai without the need for a road NW of Wash)
T78-80 HA; Corn, Fur, mine, grassForest
T81 Forge; Corn, Fur, mine, grassForest, Angry
T82 whip Forge; Corn, Fur, mine
T83 Library; Corn, Fur, 2xmine
(Library)

WheatIron (formerly Ning-something)
0 turns of Whip Anger
T74-80 Granary; Iron
T81-83 Forge; Iron
(put 1 turn into a unit for emergency whip?)
T84 Forge; Wheat, Iron
(Library/Univ here?)

Furry (formerly Old Sarai)
0 turns of Whip Anger
T?? Granary; Fur

Workers
Dixie
T74 already Cottaged- can't change, but stop cottaging
T75-6 complete chop 1E of PigsCity
T77-80 move NE, cottage
T81-84 move N, cottage

Alotta
T76 Finish cottage
T77 Move 2S1W
T78-80 chop
T81-4 Mine

Vanessa
T74 mine complete
T75 move 1S
T76-8 chop
T79-82 mine

Surviv0r
T75 move 1S
T78 move onto a forest.
T79-81 Chop
T82-5 Mine

Felicity
T74-6 Mine Iron
T77 move 1E
T78-80 Chop
T81-2 Mine
T83 cottage SW of WheatIron
T84 Wheat

Captured workers
T84 swarm Wheat

Units
Fembot Join the army as a healer (needed at Old Sarai T80)

Look around for workers and plan to grab them on T79
DoW GK and Capture Old Sarai T79 along with multiple workers.

Heal and join with reinforcements to storm the capital.

HA/chariot on the RR can grab a worker or 2 T79 and pillage captial's horses.
Send (Enslaver) up to enslave and/or pillage the other Horse.

Diplomacy

Prepare to steal worker(s) and capture Old Sarai (around T78 or 9)

Refuse Joao and Gandhi demands to switch into Hindu
Accept Gandhi or Joao demand for tech
Refuse Mansa beg for MC
Refuse all Dr Evil demands
Refuse all Genghis demands

When our Power gets high near the end of the TS, demand money
T80 : Demand all gold from Joao

See if Gandhi can ever be bribed to switch to Buddhism if Mansa spread it to his capital.

Espionage - 100% on Gandhi

Stopping conditions - Something unexpected happens.
We spot workers mining copper and need to consider DoW.
We capture workers and need to approve work plans for them.

Check every turn
Save the game at the start and end of the turn
Check the cultural view to pick out hidden AI culture
Check if Gandhi can be bribed into Buddhism starting T61

14. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Seraiel, any chance you kept the test game up with the real game? or can you do that in the next couple hours? Please post the latest test game you have if/when you can no longer work on it, thx.

15. ### SeraielChieftain

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I believe that we should attack Genghis' capital with all Forces as fast as possible and ignore Old Serai for the moment. The city got capability to produce anything at all without Food while the capital has 1/2 Horses, is great for production and has tons of Forrests. I'd simply leave Ning-hsia undefended to lure out troops from there and attack the capital both from SW of it and via the Railroad (iirc you need 3 moves from the SW to reach it but only 2 form the E) .
Spear should imho pillage the 2nd Horses simultaniously.

Regarding Worker micro, I'm not sure we want that chop so soon because it'd screw the next whip, not? FYI: With our current plans we'll also btw. have 8 or 9 Horse-Archers available, so the chop might not be needed immediately, which'd maybe allow to improve enough tiles so that the city won't have to work unimproved ones anymore.

And never will I agree to not working the Gold to mix in Scientists which I think are bad alone already.

16. ### SeraielChieftain

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I'll post the test-game until tomorrow. Atm. I'm totally wasted from my turnset.

17. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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I totally agree that we want to storm the capital ASAP, but we just don't have the troops for that yet. We may have 8-9 like you said, but most of them will be nowhere near GK's capital. So I figured, by T79, we will be itchin' to grab a couple workers, so we might as well get Old Sarai before it whips an archer. Then our new excess of workers will be able to road right thru the city.

The biggest reason I chose to not work Gold 1 turn is that it allows a 2-pop whip of a HA in Captialist (after we get the GS ) in 3 turns. I'm not married to this idea. I'll wait for another opinion.

I'm shocked that you are now saying you don't want to chop or build those mines in PigsCity. You were ready to do that 5 turns ago (pre-Math!). I would rather chop the grassland and put up cottages myself. I thought for sure you'd be against Dixie working on a cottage so soon, but I agree with you that we need to get those shared cottages worked for sure and even a couple more.

18. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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Seraiel, do you have alternate suggested build orders for Capitalist (given that you must produce a GP in 3-5 turns)?

I would feel comfortable playing tonight if we can approve a plan for Captialist.

19. ### WastinTimeChieftainSupporter

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is there any value in having a sword? I think they're gonna be too slow.

20. ### SeraielChieftain

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2-pop-whip is good, (Great) Scientist not.

Regarding the Forrest you said that you wanted to chop 1E of Pigs, not 2N or 2W and build Mines. My decision for that single Cottage was made because it gets ready in time and would allow the city to work 4 improved tiles and be whipped 4 -> 2 until the mines are up. I definately prefer mines for Washington and Pigs because they're riverside and also give 1 , so it's a trade of 1 against 1 or 2 in hamlet status (calculating 1 with 2 which is in favour of Food because we must reduce the Food, therefor it actually has less value and the math is even better for the mine) .

Do what you feel is right Wastin, but cross your fingers that we get that Great Spy instead of the GS. Infiltration Mission is something like 3k EP or more iirc, that one out-values a Scientist by factor 2 or 3 having in mind that spies also have a discount.

Born In Cantaloup always wants me to buy into those, but I think in our specific situation there is no value. Only city that could be attacked by Swords properly is Beshbalik and I think we wanna leave that one to Genghis to be able to tech-steal from him, it's also a hills-city and will probably have Walls, and you know that Hills-cities without siege are pure horror.

I agree with playing tonight because I want to keep us moving. Plastic Ducks are like 20T in advance iirc., and they're already slow.