SGOTM 26 - Lurkers Thread

[Pangaea]

One thing I noticed from the early pages of the PR thread was something about what buildings were in the SB city (which started with Walls+Castle), which surprised me a bit, because there seemed to be some confusion. Likely early buildings like Barracks, Granary, Library are pretty easy to see when you zoom in on the city. Forge for example is harder because it looks kinda grey and non-descript (blends in with 'background' buildings from larger cities), and a city is usually fairly big by then with many buildings (AIs love to build crap).

I don't recall where the files were downloaded from now, but somebody in the forum posted two zip files with all the buildings, for easy identification. I happened to know much of that from before, but it's nice to have them all in one place. Can be quite useful to see that an AI has built an early Library, or if a capital has gotten an Academy. There are also pictures of the buildings in the Civopedia, so if unsure you can look up the entries there, and probably spot them inside cities.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Don't know what that is about or if it applies here (the thread is only 300 pages, come on! ), however: If both the human and the relevant AI is in the lower half of the scoreboard, you get +1 for kinda sucking->Developing civilizations should cooperate or some such language.

devoloping nations should work together! Thanks! Never got it, but have read about it. You may be right - I am also not sure I can find the place where they discuss it, lol

 

[Fippy]

2Clams with minimal distance maintenance not only didn’t slow down tge cow pasture (T14 either way), it was twice closer to Cows for fishing boats.

Then 2Clams was twice closer to Canal for fishing boats.

Great post by LTC, describes really accurately my thoughts and why we picked city 3 so early.
I figured with plains workshops one of the biggest building req queues (Forge, IW, Factory and IP) will be sorted out.
2 clams are "just" +8 food before Bio farms, but with plenty forests for Pyras this place was our early gem

I can add that more early cities for workboats also supports scouting.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Did I understand correctly that you achieved a religious victory, but it was counted as a UN victory because you obsoleted the AP on the turn of the vote by bulbing Mass Media?

No that's not correct, the game does not distinguish victories achieved by either the UN or AP counting them all as Diplomatic - in HOF and GOTM we have systems to distinguish between them once the file is submitted.

 

[Pangaea]

Not sure about the etiquette for directly linking posts here, despite PR having finished, but there are some "big picture" strategic discussions around post #205 on page 11 for PR. Interesting that you decided so early what to do, only some 40-50 turns into the game.

 

[Fippy]

Tbh sgotm history shows that AP victory is usually best, so i had little doubts about going religious.
As much as i think it was added poorly by the Devs, it's very powerful for quick & cheesy wins

Keeping AP vote alive despite getting Mass Media with help of a great Artist was hmm..a lucky thought? Doubtful that anybody on our team used that before.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Keeping AP vote alive despite getting Mass Media with help of a great Artist was hmm..a lucky thought?

That was a stroke of absolute genius!! I would never have thought to try it as I would have assumed the AP vote would be cancelled.

 

[Gumbolt]

I have been updating my previous post with date comparisons. Will try and add more later but absolutely knackered and in need of sleep. Ho hum!

 

[Pangaea]

One thing I noticed from the early pages of the PR thread was something about what buildings were in the SB city (which started with Walls+Castle), which surprised me a bit, because there seemed to be some confusion. Likely early buildings like Barracks, Granary, Library are pretty easy to see when you zoom in on the city. Forge for example is harder because it looks kinda grey and non-descript (blends in with 'background' buildings from larger cities), and a city is usually fairly big by then with many buildings (AIs love to build crap).

I don't recall where the files were downloaded from now, but somebody in the forum posted two zip files with all the buildings, for easy identification. I happened to know much of that from before, but it's nice to have them all in one place. Can be quite useful to see that an AI has built an early Library, or if a capital has gotten an Academy. There are also pictures of the buildings in the Civopedia, so if unsure you can look up the entries there, and probably spot them inside cities.

Found the thread, if others would be interested in those 7zips.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ingame-building-models-sprites.645208/

 

[Noble Zarkon]

1AD
PR 6 AI met.
HS 2 AI met.

I was surprised how slow HS were at meeting the AIs, not quite sure why - will need to go back and have a look.

Unusual Suspects got caravels out and met Bismarck in 250AD (~10 turns after 1AD) and Charlemagne in 425 AD (~another 7 turns later).

 

[Fine_Distinction]

I was surprised how slow HS were at meeting the AIs, not quite sure why - will need to go back and have a look.

Unusual Suspects got caravels out and met Bismarck in 250AD (~10 turns after 1AD) and Charlemagne in 425 AD (~another 7 turns later).

Iirc, one of the thing PR's 3rd city, 2xClams was doing, was building scouting workboat(s). Homies 3rd city was settled earlier, had virtually no prod and was settled long before BW - that is one of the reason why it might be more difficult for HS to squeeze hammers for scouting.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Great post by LTC, describes really accurately my thoughts and why we picked city 3 so early.
I figured with plains workshops one of the biggest building req queues (Forge, IW, Factory and IP) will be sorted out.
2 clams are "just" +8 food before Bio farms, but with plenty forests for Pyras this place was our early gem

I can add that more early cities for workboats also supports scouting.

My impression was also that LC nailed it. Do you think that settling 2Clams early is responsible for a substantial score lead you had already at ~T31?

I was surprised that Homies did not consider 2Clams at all for a city #3 (or did I miss it?). The only discussion I remember was to when to settle Canal as their 3rd city (3x seafood further East).

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Another interesting difference between the teams is in their general approach: as WT said somewhere, this game they lacked a single, game-breaking idea (exploit). They seemed to play more HOF-style (?), making risky bets that they will finding much better city spots later & enough seafood for sushi. This all-in approached worked very well in some previous sGOTMs, but here, it ended badly. As WT said, Homies executed superbly a suboptimal strategy.

Phoenix used a more holistic approach of "just" playing the game very, very well and paying attention to all aspects, which prolly helped them keep the big picture in mind, be more flexible and adapt to the map better. Notwithstanding several strokes of genius, such as 2Clams early and bulbing MM. But my impression was that PR intention was to play a nearly optimal, but "normal" game of civ, while Homies was looking for game-breaking ideas. Was that the case?

 

[jeffelammar]

I just wanted to chime in here. I have very much enjoyed lurking through this game. Thanks to all of the teams for playing this game in public so I could watch.

Was anyone else disappointed when Home Slices decided to

Spoiler :

... not go for a conquest win. I think it was right for the competition, but I was really looking forward to watching them wipe everyone out.

I also am really glad that it looks like the Usual Suspects...

Spoiler :

are going to fight to get a spot for their 7th city. I'm pretty sure it will result in a much slower end date, but I think this approach will be a lot of fun to watch. (and I expect it will be fun to execute as well).

Speaking of strategies, I am enjoying that there were at least 3 different strategies pursued.

Spoiler :

Home Slices - Diplo - Sushi with a Civil Service and a Medicine slingshot.
PR - AP - State Property with the astounding Superconductor slingshot.
The Indecisive - AP as well. It looks like PR has shown that AP is fastest.
Usual Suspects - Look like they may well be going for a conquest victory. I'm really enjoying that.

And some random thoughts...

Spoiler :

The bonkers shenanigans possible in Civ4 are a large part of why I still find the game fascinating all these years later.

• You can research Superconductors without even knowing Replaceable Parts. Yes you can build refrigerators and superconductors without knowing how to build a lumbermill or even make steel.
• You can trade a resource to game the overflow mechanics, then purposely pillage your own resources to cancel the trade with absolutely no diplomatic penalties.
• A game that was originally billed as "removing micromanagement" via the overflow mechanic (on both builds and techs) that actually ends up being an even more micro intense mechanic than the civ3 game of trying to hit everything on the nose.
• As a personal note, I still have issues with the AP and UN victories. I personally don't feel like I've actually won when I achieve them. The AI is too easy to game into voting for you. That said, I have nothing but respect for the mastery shown by PR in doing an AP victory.

And to end, one more big to all the teams. I really enjoyed lurking.

 

[Fippy]

My impression was also that LC nailed it. Do you think that settling 2Clams early is responsible for a substantial score lead you had already at ~T31?

Among other parts yup. Was the perfect place to build (or rather chop & overflow whip) Pyras, and every turn without Rep scientists costs beakers.

Other key factors for me were bulbing Philo (with our cap creating the first GS early), this allowed us making double GPP with Paci.
This way we also had 2 Relis founded and waited how spreads fall, Peter getting one was big for friendly tech trades (no restrictions).

And GLH, without need for Corporation we knew it will helps us for a very long time.
Peter being on other landmasses gave us 3 routes.
Combined with Astro bulbs for more of them
After we figured out how we can use the AP, GLH was never in question (no need for UN).
Imo it's much better than Oracle, which we could also have lost (we had a running gag that Oracle was built before SH ).
I never liked the Oracle much, esp if i cannot see AIs and what they are doing. Here this dislike was even magnified by limited wonders and production in some cities.

(what will i write in my report now, already telling most )

 

[Fippy]

Phoenix used a more holistic approach of "just" playing the game very, very well and paying attention to all aspects, which prolly helped them keep the big picture in mind, be more flexible and adapt to the map better. Notwithstanding several strokes of genius, such as 2Clams early and bulbing MM. But my impression was that PR intention was to play a nearly optimal, but "normal" game of civ, while Homies was looking for game-breaking ideas. Was that the case?

Partly, we were surely hoping for a great 6-7th city spot.
I guess the main difference was that we rated 2x clams higher than other possible cities (like 3x seafood), so any found paradise would replace some other spot but not this one.
Personally i also had no illusions that said paradise might be above what HS called Canal

Like HS we were not exactly happy with what we found via scouting, but i think we did well with getting that info early and decided Optics should be our main focus.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Iirc, one of the thing PR's 3rd city, 2xClams was doing, was building scouting workboat(s).

HR keep moaning that scouting was penalised, interesting perspective - I think their scouting was subpar and really hurt them, going to be an interesting discussion once they finish!

We had totally irrational ambitions

People really should have taken on board the very first paragraph of the introduction (which LC then goes on to quote) "Winter has come - such a long, long Winter that Summer is regarded as a myth, no living person can remember the warmer times. Food is scarce, the land is tough, little grows, some animals are extinct - unable to exist in such harsh conditions.” - I think it took most of the teams too long to get their heads around what that implied, longer than I expected. With 7 Settlers I expected the two on the plains hills to be settled straight away with the other 5 scouting, a couple of workboats from the initial coastal city and you should definitely have had the lie of the land fairly early on.

 

[Fippy]

Can we ask map related questions here? (most other threads are locked).
I wonder how far we are supposed to scout with some settlers, settling decisions are final here and cannot be repaired..so without more info games might be very different.

Interesting that i asked about it when we started.
Was worth doing thou, thinking about your reply i was like "okay there's probably no hidden super area"

 

[Major Tom]

I was surprised how slow HS were at meeting the AIs, not quite sure why - will need to go back and have a look.

Unusual Suspects got caravels out and met Bismarck in 250AD (~10 turns after 1AD) and Charlemagne in 425 AD (~another 7 turns later).

I am also surprised that HS didn’t find the other AIs earlier. Must have lost a few opportunities there for tech trading, maps etc.

 

[Gumbolt]

NZ always stated he wanted this to be about competition between teams. Not on silly random or luck events where one team might accidentally find a site with 3-4 fish because they sent a workboat east instead of west.

There was never likely to be a far off site that would be game changing.

HS have 3 big techs left and UN 5-6 turns off.