SGOTM21 Lurker's Thread

[BSPollux]

Some teams misinterpreted the workboat as a sign that theres more land behind shaka or above england

 

[kcd_swede]

Thanks for a fun game! Like elitetroops said, we got in a bit of a bind early with Shaka declaring war earlier than optimal for us. We handled it pretty well I thought, but given the level of competition the other teams provide, in retrospect an early setback can really put you in a hole.

I missed a bit in the middle, then when I came back... Zhary and elitetrooper are using 7-dimensional arrays to design turnsets... and I nevr really could get my head aeound it all. But I don't mind filling the cheerleader role. You know, moral suppoert... the majority of the team is still interested and excited about the game and the plans and the competition even after several months.

And for that we have our mapmakers to thank - creating a longer game that is still interesting up to the end - and our competitors

Spoiler :

(Vi som är elak hoppas på några felklickningar som radera alla deras Great People.).

(sort of...)

Tack och hejdå!

 

[Gumbolt]

Well done to Jag. Elite was a great player to have around. Knows the game really well. Good team effort overall. 25-30 turns from leading team is not bad.

You never know with 3rd. Xteam have 6 days left and 40-50 turns to play. The micro will have to slip at some point. They need to complete nearly 10 turns a day. All other teams will certainly be done by the deadline. PD and TSR only 5-6 turns to play.

 

[Zhary]

Thanks BSP for a fun game. This was my first SGOTM but for the last 5-6 years I have played civ in this style with setting up individual goals before reaching victory so I realy enjoyed it.

For the game: I think we lost it already in Antartica. If we would have known about the secret route we wouldn't delay CS/Edu for the astro bulb. Could have saved us 20-30 of teching. Or who am I kidding even if we had Ind 30 turns earlier we could only save 10 turns on the victory date. TSR and PD are just to good at this game.

The most exciting part of the game was the war against Will I think. I played that turnset it was a war with only a small advantage for us and we where losing 3-4 80% battles and didn't won a signle one below 60%. That plusd that Shaka demanded al our banked gold when he could any tech he would have demanded was bad luck. When I was done I though about what happend and then I realized that it was Friday the 13.
My teammates where a bit afraid when Shaka finally attacked but i was calm since we got Maces out just in time.

 

[Seraiel]

When seeing the results that the efforts put into SGOTM game give, I always ask myself, why SGOTMs aren't played on Deity. I mean, seriously, TSR is fighting an Impi with an Infantry in two turns.

I lack the right words to describe the AIs, calling them pathetic isn't enough. I don' say, that this SGOTM was too easy, but it would be nice to see games, where the AIs at least provide some opposition. Having read the whole TSR I have to say, that the Barbs were probably the hardest opponent in that game, because back then, at least the units were limited. The whole game doesn't have one war, that was really exciting. TSR dominated, abused and played with every AI like they were a child's toy.

 

[Zhary]

When seeing the results that the efforts put into SGOTM game give, I always ask myself, why SGOTMs aren't played on Deity. I mean, seriously, TSR is fighting an Impi with an Infantry in two turns.

I lack the right words to describe the AIs, calling them pathetic isn't enough. I don' say, that this SGOTM was too easy, but it would be nice to see games, where the AIs at least provide some opposition. Having read the whole TSR I have to say, that the Barbs were probably the hardest opponent in that game, because back then, at least the units were limited. The whole game doesn't have one war, that was really exciting. TSR dominated, abused and played with every AI like they were a child's toy.

It would had been fun with a harder war even if we set up a hard war for us self. We had some preparation for a war against Shaka without Iron and that would have been really fun.
As long as it is harder or longer(tasks for late game techs) game. This game was still at a pleasent lenght I think and those task+ deity would have required at least an extra month. I would say that the start worker was a bit unessary in this game.

 

[BSPollux]

I like to add the worker because it skips the first few turns of nothingness.

The AI difficulty, you want it to be higher? I thought Immo was already scaring away new players..?

Maybe we could present the opening screenshots, tasks and such and have a vote on the difficulty afterwards? "This is the challenge, how hard do you want it?"

 

[Seraiel]

There were already many of those polls, and the decision always fell against Deity. The players are simply scared, that thy could lose a game, and Deity is the only level that doesn't guaranteed a win.

Tbh, Immortal is way too low for these games. Even if a team consists to 100% out of Imm players, they could win a Deity game together, with the efforts that the teams show.

Seems to be more attractive to grind down a game with no opposition than to actually gamble .

 

[BSPollux]

Well the argument for low levels is that teams should compete with each other, not with the AI

 

[Seraiel]

I know, but without risks, without luck and without chance, games are boring like nothing. Just look at the teams and their players, every team has players dropping out, because they just can't stand a playstyle that is only maths and test-games. There must be incertainties to keep a game interesting. In Formular One, the engines also can blow up or a team loses 10s because someone fetched the wrong tire. How much more epic would SGOTM be, when PD and TSR weren't always on the safe side. How glorious would certain events or happenings be, when those things really had an impact on the game, like a team losing an early Wonder or their greatest opponent losing half of their army against a hills city, and otos, how great would it feel for the players, once they had overcome those situations and could call a game won.

 

[kcd_swede]

I know, but without risks, without luck and without chance, games are boring like nothing. Just look at the teams and their players, every team has players dropping out, because they just can't stand a playstyle that is only maths and test-games. There must be incertainties to keep a game interesting. In Formular One, the engines also can blow up or a team loses 10s because someone fetched the wrong tire. How much more epic would SGOTM be, when PD and TSR weren't always on the safe side. How glorious would certain events or happenings be, when those things really had an impact on the game, like a team losing an early Wonder or their greatest opponent losing half of their army against a hills city, and otos, how great would it feel for the players, once they had overcome those situations and could call a game won.

Some opposition to deity level was actually proposed by deity level players who feel that the high impact of random factors at that level would make the victor (well, the deciding factor between TSR and PD, anyhow) a matter of luck rather than skill.

I think if we make a deity level sgotm competition, we should have a steady deity level player design it and test it to ensure a good competition. I don't see Immortal being less frightening to new players than deity level, though.

 

[elitetroops]

I don't like the deity idea. I think it would only serve to increase the edge of the top teams, because they have so much more deity experience. Immortal is good imo.

However, the added worker is a huge edge against standard immortal. Don't know what the AI got to make up for that, but it felt like not enough.

I like the added worker though. The very early game gets much more interesting. To make up for it, maybe give deity level starting units to AI (2 settlers), but keep difficulty on immortal.

 

[Zhary]

I like to add the worker because it skips the first few turns of nothingness.

Thats true without the worker someone just have to press enter 15 turns before something happens. But in the long run it also means 15 more turns of archers instead of longbows for a war against the AI. We where wondering why the AI where so slow when it actually where we that was fast.

The AI difficulty, you want it to be higher? I thought Immo was already scaring away new players..?

Maybe we could present the opening screenshots, tasks and such and have a vote on the difficulty afterwards? "This is the challenge, how hard do you want it?"

Maybe one should state the relative difficulty. I would say this game was a
Imm+generous start=Emp
For a fun game I wouldnt have mind a
Deity+generous start+IMstating units for AI=IM
or my personal favorite:
Emp+poor start=IM

Removing the iron could have equalize the start worker to make the game harder but still not to hard.

@ET We are starting to xpost in the lurker threat to.

 

[Seraiel]

Well, we could try to search criteria to make a map different, so the map maker can choose of certain options trying to make a game more demanding.

We already had Deity starting units if the human starts witha worker.
Then there is the poor and the rich start.

I'd like to add what I find two major things making a round easy ot hard:

Hard: AI has a lot land to expand to, and is safe to expand to it and not get rushed by the player early. With lots of land, basically every AI gets strong.

Easier: Give the human Ivory. Elepult is the only rush I know of, that cannot fail if executed correctly, even on Deity.

There are far more things, i. e. distribution the AIs and especiall the religions. In this game I felt, that Shaka and Willlem had too poor land and too little of it, while the chance that they would fight each other was a lot higher than anybody of those choosing the human as a target. If Shaka and Willem had both been Buddhists while the player starts with Hinduism and while he's forced to adopt it, this would have opened up the chance that the human gets in a 2 vs 1 situation.
Also that AIs were on islands is not preferable imo, because this leaves the human with only 2 opponents. AIs cannot attack overseas effectively.

I don't want to say that this map was bad, not at all, Louis beong the only one with Marble / Stone and being isplated i. e. was brilliant.
Just giving ideas.

 

[aitkensam]

What determines the winner if TSR & PD both finish on same turn? Score?

 

[Pangaea]

I'm really worried about Xteam being able to finish. I posted a message about it, but I don't think anybody took notice. Admittedly I've only been skimming their thread, but I haven't seen any mention about the deadline in TWO DAYS. They're at turn 163 now, and maybe the best case scenario is to win around turn 200. That's an awful lot of turns to play in a few days, and won't be possible if they're going to detail the micro to the n-th degree like they do now.

 

[Gumbolt]

They have till the global end of the 8th. So more than 2 days. Maybe they expect an extension? Perhaps teams should be reminded.

 

[BSPollux]

I reminded them a million times. I will post a 'last day' warning, possibly.

 

[WastinTime]

What determines the winner if TSR & PD both finish on same turn? Score?

No, Both get gold then. Thank god they made this rule because otherwise, we'd have to worry about ending each game with max population/max score. It would be a tedious PIA.

 

[LowtherCastle]

No, Both get gold then.

Not only that, AlanH long ago set the civilized (imo) precedent of having gold, silver, and bronze based on dates rather than number of teams finishing ahead of you. In other words, 2 golds doesn't mean no silver. CFC SGOTM is a friendly community.