SGOTM3 Rome - Maintenance Thread

[mad-bax]

This discussion is now closed in this thread.

Microbe, I have responded to your latest posts by PM. I will continue this discussion in private for as long as you wish it, but I will not permit this discussion to disrupt this thread any longer.

 

[akots]

... I will not permit this discussion to disrupt this thread any longer.

Poor Microbe. Poor mad-bax. Poor us.

Seriously, is this that important? IMHO, not important, absolutely. I was also going to make peace with Greece but mad-bax came and warned not to do so. But what if he did not come?

Edited: Forgot poor AI. It is being hammered and hammered and hammered.

 

[civ_steve]

mad-bax: I and many others really, REALLY appreciate the work you put into SGOTM!! I agree with the "doubles" concept for this competition; the point is to have a good time, build the community and share your ideas, discussion and game play. SGOTM does this all the way around.

I pick my wars pretty carefully in GOTM, so SGOTM3 is a real departure for me. It's been nervewracking at times, but a real blast none-the-less. And not being the AW type, I appreciated the more complicated version here; at least we had some breathing room between DoW's.

I'd recommend that, similar to the GOTM Reference thread ( ), there be a post (probably the 2nd one) with descriptions and links to any and all pertinent discussions and decisions regarding the current SGOTM. That way there is one spot to refer to for final decisions, and it can be updated during the competition. Odd as it may sound, I suspect that many players and perhaps all those on some teams, don't monitor the maintenance thread daily, and miss a lot of discussion that goes on. This way they only have to look at one post, not all the posts. I think this general concept has been mentioned earlier, but this is my take on it.

Again, and

 

[akots]

Since I cannot sleep tonight, crazy ideas are coming to my poor head. What if we select a judge? To judge these issues? Certainly, Demo game experience hurts in this case. The judge can be voted in the poll by all players prior to the game and should not be a part of any team. The judge should be also a qualified and respectable player who understands the rules. The judge can also have a deputy to help him wage through a set of turnlogs. May be even 2 deputies. His job can be rather difficult. He has to browse through all the threads and see an evidence whether a certain team has violated the rules. Not only the variant rules but GOTM-SGOTM general rules as well. And determine the penalty. For example, 10% Jason score taken off or +20 turns added to finish date. There should be also some limits to the punishments known to the players before the game begins.

Since mad-bax is affiliated with the staff team, it would be unfair to leave all the issues arising during these games to his discretion only. Not that I doubt mad-bax can make an honest unobscured ruling. But nevertheless, there would be always somebody who may doubt this. And they have a right to do so. It is still not too late to vote for a judge even in this SGOTM.

There is also an option to appoint a judge. But it is a hard job and I would think that very few people would actually agree to become a judge. Hence, candidates (at least 2) can be suggested by mad-bax and then voted by all players. This would make their appointments even more legitimate. Nobody would even try to question a ruling in this case.

There can be a separate thread to discuss the rulings or ask questions but most of problems can be decided in the actual team's thread and become public only after the game is finished. This would avoid a spoiler problems for these discussion which might contain some important information. However, final ruling would have to be posted in the Maintenance Thread for the game so that the other teams know what is going on with the final score or whether a team has been disqualified.

There should be no appeal court IMO. Ruling are final and in effect for that particular GOTM. If a judge mades unfair decisions too often, he would not be elected for the next SGOTM.

@mad-bax. To ease the pain of playtesting and editing, I suggest you do not playtest or edit. This thing apparently may take a horrendous amount of time. And if all teams lose... this just means we play not so well, need to learn more about this game. But if AWS can be won, well, virtually any variant can be potentially won.

There is so much hassle just to organize this whole SGOTM and I'm sure it is enough committment by itself. IMO, we reall should appreciate this.

 

[civ_steve]

Prudent, but it sounds as complicated as the variant rules!

I think this gets away from the concept of SGOTM. I'd prefer this competition to be considered more like a common SG than a GOTM; all teams are playing from the same start position, posting their progress and interactions. At the end, some laurels and spoons are awarded. Anybody and everybody can review the threads, especially those of the award recipients, and if you have an issue with the play for the variant, you can post it. I'm content with an ad-hoc decision (and due to different interpretations of statements I think the guideline must be intent to play in the spirit of the variant with some common sense applied), but others may not be (which is the unfortunate reality of any endeavor pursued by a decent number of people.)

I prefer an informal SGOTM, but I'm afraid that there will always be nit-picky issues.

 

[grahamiam]

<snip> I'd prefer this competition to be considered more like a common SG than a GOTM; all teams are playing from the same start position, posting their progress and interactions. At the end, some laurels and spoons are awarded. Anybody and everybody can review the threads, especially those of the award recipients, and if you have an issue with the play for the variant, you can post it. <snip>

I prefer an informal SGOTM, but I'm afraid that there will always be nit-picky issues.

i generally agree with steve. unfortunately, there will always be someone who treats this too serious, like they are gonna miss a mortgage payment or fail an exam if things don't go 100% thier way or they miss something in the game's rules. we've made mistakes in our game too, very big ones, due to misinterpreting the rules. but it's ok, we're having fun playing the game, as that was the intent from the beginning. seeing how others react or getting dumped into totally chaotic situations makes sg's really fun for me. we might get run over by the AI, but that's ok, as there's always something to learn from losing.

the one thing i disagree with steve is in regards to reviewing other's threads... i actually like it that they are closed from the beginning as this makes it harder to play while also forcing everyone to focus on thier own game, rather than checking out to see what the Ateam is doing, and then trying to replicate it. i know we would have players from our team constantly checking the other threads if this was allowed and it would be too distracting. plus, it was really interesting to see all the different tactics in sgotm2 after the game was done. i could see where we did better and worse than others. very good learning experience imho.

thanks mb

 

[scoutsout]

...in regards to reviewing other's threads... i actually like it that they are closed from the beginning

I agree with you 110% on those thoughts, Grahamiam. The unexpected/unexplored is a big part of the fun of this game.

 

[RowAndLive]

Whether or not any individual stays in the game is their choice. MY choice would be to see everyone stay in the game(s). I respect Microbe greatly as a player, and give much credit to M-B bot only for his hard work, but also for getting me interested in trying SGs. Thanks to both.

RE: the closed threads, I very much agree that they add to the game.

Incidentally, we're in a very strong 3-way race for the spoons, so we may pull out our second award yet!

 

[ForTheEmpire]

Just in defense of microbe and the rest of team microbe, the only reason we are paying so much attention to the details of the rules is that we just simply want to make sure that we are following it properly. What good are rules if they are not followed, right? We were not trying to look for loopholes in wording, we were simply confused with the explanations and just wanted consistency, that's all. If we choose to play a variant, we want to follow it properly. We are really good citizens in a sense in that we only questioned so much so we can play the variant. Otherwise, we would simply play AWE and that would NOT be the variant. But as M-B has said, done is done, and let's all move on.

 

[microbe]

i generally agree with steve. unfortunately, there will always be someone who treats this too serious, like they are gonna miss a mortgage payment or fail an exam if things don't go 100% thier way or they miss something in the game's rules.

Grahamiam, I agree with you and I want fun, not winning any competition (not that we are playing well enough to win, there are many more talented teams). The best way to achieve this is to have simpler (or at least more casual) rules, not to have complicated rules and let people keep wondering if they've got it right. We delayed one declaration for 3 turns and got accused, this is just an extreme example of that.

I think both Mad-bax and I were frustrated. I've tried my best to follow the rules as respect to mad-bax's hard work, but we keep missing things here and there. I would not have posted in this thread to make such a big noise and displease mad-bax if he hadn't posted in our thread "you do whatever you like, but I'll disqualify you if I think you are wrong". I guess everybody was just tired, including himself. This is a lesson to be learned to make future games more successful and enjoyable.

At the end, I agree with a more casual way of playing games. Unfurtunately, as long as SGOTM is about competition, it's not likely to change. I've always thought SG is about cooperation, not competition, by the way, so I'd like to see that happen.

Just in defense of microbe and the rest of team microbe, the only reason we are paying so much attention to the details of the rules is that we just simply want to make sure that we are following it properly. What good are rules if they are not followed, right?

I think it's certainly true that we have to pay attention to the rules. Is our team just more stupid than other teams? I couldn't view other threads yet, but from what I gathered, we are not alone. Are we just more serious than others? Maybe. But if there is an official announcement saying: these rules are casual, you can play according to your understanding and if that's wrong, no big deal, we'd stop worrying about it immediately.

 

[civ_steve]

... At the end, some laurels and spoons are awarded. Anybody and everybody can review the threads, especially those of the award recipients, and if you have an issue with the play for the variant, you can post it. ...

Here's a good example of misinterpretation of one's statements My intent was, after the game is over, stuff is awarded and THEN anybody and everybody can review the threads. (Actually, as soon as their team has finished their game.) I am not advocating for open threads, which several people interpreted I was; closed threads for the participants is much better.

 

[scoutsout]

This is intended to be a general note, not directed at anyone in particular:

Though this should be obvious, it occurs to me that sometimes we don't always consider that our electronically written words can take on a tone that is not intended. I've been guilty of this on a number of occasions, since I tend to write in a style that sometimes appears serious... I've been accused of 'raking over the coals' when attempting to engage in what I intended as polite, thoughtful dialog.

Couple this medium with a little frustration, or maybe a post that is more of a reaction than a considered thought...and it's easy to offend when no offense was really intended. Toss a little language factor into the game, and there's plenty of room for misinterpretation... (Mad-Bax and I do not speak quite the same version "English", I gua-ron-tee...)

...so... next time you get P.O.'d at someone on these boards (and I've been known to do it too...) it sometimes helps to remember that there's another human being at the other end of all this.

If you must rant, PM your thoughts to a friend. I've done this...(and my friends have my thanks for putting up with my B.S.) Not only does it help vent, but it keeps frustration from becoming anger.

To any I've ever offended and failed in an apology, just PM me and I'll personalize one for you. I'll go flush my PM box now.

 

[mad-bax]

Important. Please do not ignore.

I will ask a moderator to ban the next person to post on the subject of team Microbes issues with the variant rules. I've asked nicely, and then I told everyone to stop. Please don't ignore me again.

This post is NOT directed at any one particular individual.

 

[alerum68]

Mad-bax, what the heck is your avatar of?! It reminds me of this massage buddy thing my girlfriend has.

 

[Mauer]

rolie polie olie

 

[dmanakho]

rolie polie olie it is..
My son's favorite disney show

 

[akots]

Important. Please do not ignore.

I will ask a moderator to ban the next person to post on the subject of team Microbes issues with the variant rules. I've asked nicely, and then I told everyone to stop. Please don't ignore me again.

This post is NOT directed at any one particular individual.

Ban from where?

 

[alerum68]

hehehe... you can tell who has the kids.

 

[Mauer]

Um kids.... yes, the kids watch it .

MB 3000 post

 

[mad-bax]

Yes, Rolie Polie Olie. My childrens favourite tv show this week, and mine for over a year. It's great.

I really should get a proper Avatar.... just too lazy.