SGOTM4 - Team Bede

[MOTH]

I realized I didn't include a roster. I'm assuming we are normally doing 10 turn rotations with some exceptions. Current roster is (with one of those exceptions).

fbouthil - 11 turns so that we get Writing
TimBentley
Bede
Zakharov
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)

I've also included my away time where I should be skipped.

 

[fbouthil]

IIRC, mad-bax said that we should decide how many turns we were going to play if it was not the standard. Then Bede said 20t each for the first round and nobody made any objections. Then MOTH says 10t except 11t for me so we get writing (I am not sure why it is important for a player to end their turn at that point). I am a bit confused. Should I let MOTH play the next 10t or should I play my 10t or 11t? I do not want to do something mad-bax considers prohibited.

Anyway, I am going to eat supper and will check afterward.

If it is my turn (and it looks like it), then I will play tonight. I will settle the next town on Zak#1 spot (it seems to be the concensus). I guess the 4th town should be near the spices, but I won't get another settler in my turns. I will probably divert a worker toward the new city as it seems we have more worked tiled than Utica can labor.

 

[MOTH]

The number of turns you take is a guide only. You can vary the number of turns you take to suit your own circmstances. The only requirement is that you do not skip, or reduce the number of turns a "weaker" player takes in order to avoid the weaker player taking difficult turns, or increasing the overall proportion if turns taken by your elite players. I would prefer it if you state in the thread somewhere how many turns per session you will be playing if it isn't 10.

I take this to mean that:
1. Its not set in stone
2. we can vary this as long as we document why and how many turns.
3. as long as the why is not to give elite players more turns

I think you should take 11 turns. This lets us get Writing and then we can discuss what the Romans will trade us for it and what to research next.

I agree that spot 1 has a lot of consensus.

For city #4 I think we should consider another powerhouse location like the valley of the sheep.

 

[Bede]

As for turn count, take ten or twenty, whichever you can comfortably complete.

Zak#1 is pretty important right now. The spices can even wait if we want to move on the Vale of Lambs.

 

[fbouthil]

All right then. Got it. I will play until we get writing and post what the romans would give for it.

 

[fbouthil]

2550BC (0) - warrior will not enter roman territory just yet.

Initial Utica status: Colossus in 45t.

2510BC (1) -

2470BC (2) - warrior S goes to the wool hill just outside roman territory revealing lots of roman territory.

IBT
Carthage: settler -> NM
Rome learns IW
Rome found Antium near the last 2 wools.

2430BC (3)
Ceasar wants all our gold + 6gpt for IW so no deal.
NM go to Utica for MP.
Advisors says there are Liao tribes near Carthage. Since the warriors are pretty far, I switch Carthage to warrior.
Warrior S continues hiking on hills, revealing the territory around Rome.

2390BC (4)
Found Leptis Magna of Zak#1 -> Barrack
Advisors say there are Puyo tribes near LMOZ1. Hum. Another tribe.
Warrior N discover Liao camp.

IBT - a wandering Liao warrior shows up beyond their camp.

2350BC (5)
Dispersed the Laio camp without a scratch.
Warrior W sees Puyo camp on hill on the other side of the river.
Warrior S goes in roman territory near Veii (there is no way to get back home without going through it).

IBT
The people me! They offer to expand my palace! I ask them to mow the lawn.
Strangely, Rome does not ask me to leave its territory.

2310BC (6)
Warrior W goes toward Puyo camp and see a Puyo warrior 2 tiles toward LMOZ1.

IBT
This time Ceasar ask me to leave. Sure.
Laio warrior attacks our warrior and die.
Carthage: warrior->NM

2270BC (7)
warrior goes to Utica as it will grow next turn and need more MP.

IBT
Puyo warrior attacks our warrior and die.

2230BC (8) -

2190BC (9)
Buy roman worker for 109g
I am tempted to join a worker to Utica, but then I remember that it is better to wait until it is size 7 when it takes 40f to grow instead of 20f.
Warrior dies attacking Puyo camp.

2150BC (10) -

IBT - Research Writing -> CB in 4t at 100%

2110BC (11) -

Score: 95 Jason: 126

Ceasar is willing to trade IW, WC & pot for write & 172g. We can take that deal or wait 4t to trade CB. In any way, I do not think we should keep any tech from Rome. If the other 7 civs are on the same continent, they are going to research much faster than us, so we are better to try to accelerate research on our little continent. Trade CB for cash in 4t if we decide to accept the deal right now.

Final Utica status: Colossus in 17t

Save

The next player will have to be careful about lux as Utica grows in 2t and already has max MP (2).

The warrior was going to LMOZ1 in case the puyo send warriors our way. You could send the NM being built in Carthage to disperse it; it may give it a promotion if you are lucky.

TimBentley - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
fbouthil - just played

 

[TimBentley]

I got it, but I will not play until tomorrow. Trading for IW will help resolve where the next city shall be placed.

 

[MOTH]

I'd say that we should take the Rome trade now, but we should offer GPT rather than straight gold. This will help keep Rome from any plans of attack until we are a little more ready. I don't think we want to attack Rome within 20 turns anyway.

We should also switch to building archers instead of Mercs for the slight disband advantage when we push to get the temple after Colossus. IIRC: archer = 20 shields to build and 5 shields on disband = 25% whereas Merc = 30 to build and 7 disband = 23% and warrior = 10 build and 2 disband = 20%

What do we want research after CB? Lit (18) = GL, Lib; Myst(?) = Oracle; Map(?) = Galley, GL.
I think Lit is the clear winner as GL will be key in keeping up in the tech race and its a ton on culture. The 18 turns may come down slightly with growth and Colossus (col will get us 3 or 4 extra commerce under Despot).

What after that depends on what the Roman's get in between.

 

[Zakharov]

I have been looking at possible city sites on the other side of the mountain range. Most of them are out for:
a) having too many mountains to produce enough food to reach size 20.
b) having too many coast/sea tiles to produce enough shields (this game will be about finished before offshore platforms)
c) not sited next to a river.

Point c is important because we are still many turns from construction (aqueducts). We cannot wait that long to settle it as the Romans will get there first.

Therefore, if we want a city in the mountains, I propose the site in this image. It is the best compromise position for my three points above. I have calculated that it can produce: [food/shields/commerce]
At size 12 (Republic): 24/21/22
At size 20 (w/Railroads): 40/38/35

I can provide details of worker actions if we agree on this site.

 

[fbouthil]

Interesting. I did not know about the disband ratio (looks like 25% rounded down). I agree with Carthage building archer. Should Zak#1 also build archers? I thought it should build Mercs for defense once the barrack is finished, but now I think building archers would be more focused on the 20K target.

I agree with researching lit after CB. I would trade CB to rome ASAP, in hope they research Myst for us. I think we should research toward republic after lit, unless we run out of wonders to build.

BTW, according to the civ3edit, Myst should take about 8t to research and MM 12t. They are both research paths the AI like to take so let's hope Ceasar research those for us.

@Zakharov: I would wait until we see where iron is before deciding a site for the next city.

 

[Zakharov]

I have also been looking at possible sites near the spices. I believe we need this to be an inland city to boost shield production. If we choose the site in my previous post, we would already have a coastal city on each side of the continent anyway.

I have therefore suggested three sites for consideration, shown in the image as numbers 1, 2 and 3 (although I can change these numbers if our latest city is forever enshrined as position 1 ).

Position 1 has: 1 H, 1 M, 8 G, 4 BG, 3 F and 3 F(spices).
Position 2 has: 2 H, 12 G, 3 BG, 1 F and 2 F(spices).
Position 3 has: 3 H, 12 G, 3 BG, 1 F anf 1 F(spices).

The production stats are as follows (food/shields/commerce):
1. Size 12 - 24/21/22, Size 20 - 41/35/31
2. Size 12 - 24/21/20, Size 20 - 40/34/28
3. Size 12 - 24/22/16, Size 20 - 41/36/25

I think position 2 is the weak link here. Position 1 produces more commerce and only 1 less shield in each case than position 3. Position 1 also has 6 forests compared to just 2 for position 3, meaning it has a greater chance of uncovering extra BGs. However, position 3 will give our cultural borders more coverage towards the north of our empire (once they expand a couple of times).

Opinions?

-------------------------------

I have just realised an error in my calculations.

I have forgotten to add on the Republic/Democracy commerce bonus. This adds 12 to all the size 12 numbers and 20 to the size 20 numbers. As the same number is added to all calculations, the scaling remains unchanged. This applies to all of my previous calculations.

I suppose the numbers are correct if we ever had a Monarchy or Communist government, but in 5CC we should always be in a representative government once they become available.

-------------------------------

I agree on researching Literature. The GLib will be essential to keep up with the tech pace (plus it gives 4 culture/turn). Being able to drop the science rate will allow us to spend more on unit upkeep. We want to keep Lit to ourselves as long as possible though to make sure nobody else can build the GLib.

After Lit, we need CoL, then Republic. We will probably have to research Republic as it is too expensive to trade for and our GLib will not be finished by then (to get it for free). We need the commerce bonus asap. We will also have better conditions to trigger our golden age.

Assuming we get the Colossus (commercial), we want to avoid building the Pyramids or the Great Wall before we are a Republic, as these would trigger a golden age via the industrious trait. Also, if we somehow get into a war with Rome before Republic, then try to avoid using NuMercs. In this case attacking is certainly the best form of defence.

A question on the GLib, do any of you know if you can get free techs having only met one civ? I don't usually build the GLib, but if I do I will have met more than one other civ before building it.

@fbouthil: If we build on my proposed mountain range/sheep city site, our cultural borders will expand to cover most of that mountain range over time. If we get IW soon, then the decision will be easy, but if we wait too long then Rome will get there first. Also, most other sites in the area are poor and will have to be disbanded later in the game.

---------------------------------

I am tempted to join a worker to Utica, but then I remember that it is better to wait until it is size 7 when it takes 40f to grow instead of 20f.

I hope you meant a native worker. If a slave worker is added as a foreign citizen it creates two problems:
1) It creates the possiblity of a culture flip, even if your city has a large culture value. The garrison required to prevent it is small however.
2) Whenever we are at war with that citizen's home nation in the future, it will create a lot more war weariness than a city full of our own citizens.

If we eliminate Rome then neither of these points are a problem, but I think we should keep Rome alive but weakened, so that we can use on-off wars for leader farming. Our starting continent isn't very large, so Rome will not be able to grow too big for us to deal with.

I do agree with waiting until size 7 to add native workers, unless we are joining 11 workers on the same turn to a size 1 city.

 

[TimBentley]

A question on the GLib, do any of you know if you can get free techs having only met one civ? I don't usually build the GLib, but if I do I will have met more than one other civ before building it.

You get free techs that two other civs know, meaning you indeed need to know more than one other civ.

hope you meant a native worker. If a slave worker is added as a foreign citizen it creates two problems:
1) It creates the possiblity of a culture flip, even if your city has a large culture value. The garrison required to prevent it is small however.
2) Whenever we are at war with that citizen's home nation in the future, it will create a lot more war weariness than a city full of our own citizens.

If we eliminate Rome then neither of these points are a problem, but I think we should keep Rome alive but weakened, so that we can use on-off wars for leader farming. Our starting continent isn't very large, so Rome will not be able to grow too big for us to deal with.

I do agree with waiting until size 7 to add native workers, unless we are joining 11 workers on the same turn to a size 1 city.

Yes, generally waiting until size 7 sounds good. With a garrison of 2, we could join two foreign workers while still having no flip risk (assuming Rome doesn't have greater culture). There is also an assimilation chance of 1%. Am I correct that in PTW, slave workers work half as fast as native workers in industrious civilizations? Regardless, you make a good point about unhappiness in times of war.

I agree with literature first, then probably code of laws and republic.

We are on a standard map and there is an OCN of 16, based on CivAssist's corruption numbers (although it seems Carthage should have 4% corruption rather than 6%). Assuming despotism, a connection to the capital, and no courthouse, Zakharov's mountain site would have 27.8% corruption, site 1 would have 12.5% corruption, and site 2 and 3 would have 15.5% corruption. I think site 1 looks the best. I think settling the spices first would be better (especially considering fbouthil's comment on Utica's happiness). I might investigate city sites later, unless the rest of you analyze it well enough by the time I can.

 

[MOTH]

For City # 4 I agree that the coast south of the mountains is a good location.

For city #5 if the main consideration is to secure luxuries then I think we should also consider position M1. This location has 3 hills, 3 forest, 4 bg, 4 g, 1 tundra, 3 coast. I'm not great with the numbers, but I think its 24 food/22 sheilds/14 commerce. I'm not sure what it would be at size 20 with RR.

Two spices will be in our cultural boundary at temple radius once carthage is at 100 culture (20 turns). BY the time Carthage is abandoned #5 should have 100 culture on its own (temple, library) and the cultural border should link up to Utica. Ivory will also be just outside our cultural boundary at culture 100 (as well as more tundra for possible Oil). I'm not sure what the radius is at 1000 culture, but if it doesn't get Ivory then a unit or two will prevent any AI from placing a fishing/sealing village there.

As for the initial trade with Rome:
We can get Pot, WC, IW for writing and either:
9 GPT + 9G or 171G

The GPT deal costs us 189G or 18 more G over 20 turns. I personally prefer the GPT option as it has a better chance that Rome will remain peaceful.

 

[TimBentley]

Two spices will be in our cultural boundary at temple radius once carthage is at 100 culture (20 turns). BY the time Carthage is abandoned #5 should have 100 culture on its own (temple, library) and the cultural border should link up to Utica. Ivory will also be just outside our cultural boundary at culture 100 (as well as more tundra for possible Oil). I'm not sure what the radius is at 1000 culture, but if it doesn't get Ivory then a unit or two will prevent any AI from placing a fishing/sealing village there.

I think it would take 1000 culture for Carthage's borders to reach the spices. On the other hand, I think 10 culture in the spices city and 100 culture in Carthage would put some spices in our culture.

Also, here are the correct corruption statistics for Zakharov and MOTH's suggestions (despotism, connected to capital, no courthouse):
mountain site: 39.3%
1-21.1%
2/3-24.1%
M1-30.2%
In my previous numbers, I was accidentally dividing by 82 instead of 2.

 

[MOTH]

I think it would take 1000 culture for Carthage's borders to reach the spices. On the other hand, I think 10 culture in the spices city and 100 culture in Carthage would put some spices in our culture.

With my location I'm fairly certain that 100 in carthage will 'fill the gap' to 10 in M1.

 

[fbouthil]

Wow! You guys think a little bit too much in advance, I think. First thing first.

1. Make the deal to so we can see iron on the map (I agree with paying gpt).
2. Settle the mountain city as per Zakharov suggestion unless we have a problem getting iron. I did not see any other suggestion for city placement in that area so I assume it is accepted by the team.

@TimBentley:You can put a screenshot after the iron deal if you want a discussion about how to get the iron.

By the end of TimBentley's turn, we won't get the spice settler yet, so we have some time before we decide its exact position. I do not think we have enough workers to start a path toward it yet.

I am not sure that keeping lit to ourself is such a good idea. It does look like it may take a long time before we meet another civ and I would like Rome to help us research faster. Also, when Rome is building libraries, it is not building units to try to conquer us...

BTW, I like MOTH position for the spice city because of the possibility of getting ivory as bonus, but it is going to take some time before we have enough border expansion to get all 3 spices.

To get techs from the TGLib, we should build a few galleys when we get MM to find other civs faster.

When the 5th city is founded and big enough, then we can think about abandoning the capital and decide whether we want the 5th city and whether we want to conquer Antium or replace it to get the Wool. Oups! It seems I am not immune to thinking way too much in advance.

 

[Zakharov]

The only problem I have with position M1 is that it is coastal, which limits shield output. Here are the output numbers for the four sites (with the Rep/Dem commerce bonus added):
1. Size 12 - 24/21/34, Size 20 - 41/35/51
2. Size 12 - 24/21/32, Size 20 - 40/34/48
3. Size 12 - 24/22/28, Size 20 - 41/36/45
M1. Size 12 - 24/23/29, Size 20 - 40/32/47

Looking at these stats, M1 compares favourably to the other 3 sites. It has more shields and comparable commerce at size 12, whilst at size 20 it only loses 2-4 shields and has a nice commerce income. I suppose it does only have 4 coastal squares.

Ok, you have me convinced. Allowing the extra room for our cultural borders to expand is probably worth the loss of a couple of shields at size 20. The only problem is; how does corruption affect the output as it is 2 tiles further from the capital? Probably only 1 shield and 2-3 commerce I would guess.

With regards to the ivory, we will be waiting too long for our borders to expand far enough to cover it. We will have to build a colony, perhaps with the Roman slave worker we have? We will need the happiness boost once our cities grow towards size 12.

 

[TimBentley]

@TimBentley:You can put a screenshot after the iron deal if you want a discussion about how to get the iron.

I think everybody will agree on how to get the iron.

2110(0)-buy pottery, warrior code, iron working from Rome for writing, 5gpt, 81g (saving 8 gold while still discouraging Roman attack)
only iron is next to Rome
switch Carthage to archer

2070(1)-flubbed a MM opportunity last turn, switch two BG to two grass by water

IBT-Carthage archer->archer, MM back to BGs

2030(2)-switch archer and NM in Utica
set lux to 10%

1990(3)-zzz

IBT-learn CB, start on literature, set science to 90% (due in 16)

1950(4)-sell CB to Rome for 64g

1910(5)-try to send warrior through Rome

IBT-Rome asks (but does not demand) warrior to leave
Carthage archer->settler

1870(6)-zzz

IBT-LMOZ1 barracks->NM
Rome does not demand our warrior leave

1830(7)-Rome knows the wheel, wants approximately 3gpt, 145g for it
raise lux to 20%

1790(8)-switch Carthage to archer for one turn earlier completion of temple in Utica

1750(9)-I'll stop here since fbouthil played 11

Notes:Colossus due in 4
Literature due in about 12
With 3 disbanded archers (including one being produced in Carthage) Utica should be able to build the temple in 4 turns, then start a prebuild for the Great Library
Rome would sell the wheel for 3gpt, 122g (much too high a price)

Here is the save.
Bede - up
Zakharov - on deck
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
fbouthil
TimBentley - just recently completed the turns allotted to him

The only problem is; how does corruption affect the output as it is 2 tiles further from the capital? Probably only 1 shield and 2-3 commerce I would guess.

Well, since you asked, assuming size 20, republic, and a courthouse, position 1 would lose 4 shields and 6 commerce (11% corruption), and M1 would lose 4 or 5 (my calculations say 4.491 so probably 4) shields and 7 commerce (14% corruption).

I think making an ivory colony would be a good idea.

We can probably sell literature for the wheel, and I suspect Rome will have learned another technology (probably map making).

Edit: That's interesting how my messages merged like that.

 

[Zakharov]

Edit: That's interesting how my messages merged like that.

I noticed that exact same thing earlier. Check out post #71. That was supposed to be 4 separate posts. When I posted the second one it merged with the first and I thought there must be a problem with my browser.

I then deleted the second part and tried to repost it separately, but got a message that I had already posted the same thing within the last 5 minutes. So I put it back in the first post and edited in the dashes to keep them apart, then did the same for my next two 'posts'.

Thunderfall must have added some automated system to prevent consecutive posting.

---------------------------------

Edit: Well that just proves that idea doesn't it

Post 2 --

I think everybody will agree on how to get the iron...

...only iron is next to Rome.

ROME MUST DIE

Well mad-bax wouldn't want us fighting against the Romans without legions would he?

This is all designed to draw us into a despotic golden age isn't it?

In that case, we should get the M1 city site next for luxury grabbing. My other mountain site can wait for now unless we want to stop the Romans getting there first. It will take many turns to build a road through the mountains. Rome (or somewhere close to it) is looking like a very nice number 5 city site right now.

BTW I just realised that we will need Philosophy as well as CoL before we can research Republic. I am so used to where I shoot for Philosophy every time that I forgot we still don't have it.

 

[fbouthil]

I agree with the fact that we will need an ivory colony before the spice city can expand enough to include it but that is not the priority here.

In 3t, Utica grows to size 7 at which point it becomes more efficient for workers to join it. So a question arise: Do we use the other 2 cities to pump workers to join Utica or do they build a settler each to grow our empire?

This is all designed to draw us into a despotic golden age isn't it?

I see you are much more aggressive than me (and I thought I was pretty aggressive). Unless I get horsemen or swordmen, I usually do not fight against legion. I would be tempted to wait until we have something that has a better attack ratio against legions like longbowmen, but that would probably be a mistake, especially since waiting that long would mean attacking cities with a better defense bonus because it is at least size 7.

I would like to trade for TW, but we could wait until we have lit to trade for it.

Besides that I really do not have any new suggestions, so I will repeat my previous suggestions: Build galleys in the next city to meet other civs faster.

If we are confident we can get the mountain spot after the spice spot, then I agree to get the spices first.