SGOTM5 - Team jeffelammar

denyd said:
Actually the peace treaty with the Zulu is due to expire during the next interturn. They may come calling to renew.
I don't think they will renegotiate. The AI usually only renegotiates peace when the treaty included a luxury or GPT.

denyd said:
We should talk about what to do about the Indians. They've got 3 cities and a settler on our home island and are our tech equals. Soon they will have War Elephants and would pose a threat to Moscow. Without any culture expansions, only one of those cities would survive a conquering and we really don't need any more slaves (though they are nice to have around).
I think that we should kill all of their forces on our island, raze their cities, and then see if we can get a short "island city" for peace. It would be nice to establish a beachhead over there.

As for the slaves, I say keep taking them. We may not need them, but they sure don't hurt.

Edit
My post crossed Grahamiam's
grahamiam said:
yes, let's talk about this today as I play and post tonight.
those cities are likely to have high corruption (for india) and i wouldn't expect them to produce more than an archer or spear. imho, i say we let them sit for my set as the FP will come online at the end of it. after the FP is online, then let Moscow build 4 or 5 or (whatever is required) knights to go out and remove those cities.
Sounds just fine to me.
 
We have a city (Santiago) from the Spanish war on the short island. As long as we stay in monarchy, we should keep adding cities on the short island. They will be difficult to defend once we get into a war with India, we'll probably lose them.

When we move to attack India on the home island, be sure to go after Punjab first. It's the only one liable to not-autoraze.
 
grahamiam, your India plan sounds good to me. I also think we should upgrade a few elite horses; the extra power will help us more than the ability to get a leader right away, since leaders aren't very powerful in this game.

I think we should remove the Zulu from the game as soon as we've made peace with the Mongols and gotten ready for another attack. I'd like them not to be sitting in the middle of our territory as we move down the island. With knights they should go quickly and we can move on.
 
Preflight check. Zulu peace treaty does not have any turns on it, RoP has 4T left.
American’s refuse our envoy so won’t even talk peace.
Mongols will give up a town for peace but we want more.
Get 24g sell WM’s
Let Moscow finish Pike so we can secure the towns on the island.
Nanking gets a clown for a turn.
Fire the clown in Stockholm and let citizen work
Fire taxmen in Buffalo and Almarikh and let Citizen work
Shave a turn off Beijing by working the irrigated plain.
Fire clown in Nidaros and hire taxman.


IBT: Citizens in Swazi die due to barb horse
Moscow pike -> horse; Nanking pike -> pike

T1: 560AD Moving and healing, but mostly healing. I move a pike from Nanking to Beijing so we can still finish the FP in 6T. Also, move the other pike in Nanking towards Shanghai.

IBT: Shanghai barracks -> MDI
Indian’s are building Sun’s

T2: 570AD Assembly SoD on hill W of Karakorum.
Sign Peace with America for Houston, 7g, and WM.

IBT: Barb horse destroys work on archer in Swazi; Moscow horse -> MDI

T3: 580AD SoD next to Karakorum

IBT:

T4: 590AD At Karakorum: cat misses; MDI kills spear and promotes (4/5); MDI kills spear (2/4); elite MDI kills spear and we take the town.
Outside of Almarikh: elite horse redlines but kills archer and generates a leader [dance]
Move 2 swords, 1 MDI, and 2 horses into position for TaTu next turn.

IBT: elite sword defends against Mongol spear; resign RoP with Zulu, getting a worker as a bonus :)
Barbarian horse sacks Swazi, costing us 6g. This down is a PITA!
The people want the pentagon, which would be nice.
Cantorn horse -> horse

T5: 600AD Ta-Tu: MDI dies to spear (2/4); sword dies to spear (2/4); sword kills 2/4 spear; horse kills spear (4/5) and we take the town.
Move army and a couple of horses to take Tabriz next turn.
Disperse a barb camp on the home island for 25g.

IBT:

T6: 610AD Tabriz: Horse Army kills spear (10/14); elite* horse retreats (2/3); horse retreats; cat and MDI move in.

IBT: Beijing completes FP -> market, gpt improves by 15; Nidaros pike -> pike; Oslo cat -> pike; Nanking pike -> Market; Tsingtao barracks -> pike
Egypt building Sun’s


T7: 620AD Tabriz: cat misses; MDI kills spear (3/5); Horse Army kills spear and we take the town (4/14)
Peace with Mongols for the town of Darhan, 6g, and WM.

IBT: Chivalry -> Eng; Isandhlwana barracks -> pike; Linkoping worker -> worker

T8: 630AD Upgrade 2 horses. Shutoff research so we can make more money to upgrade horseman (+106gpt)

I’m setting up for an RoP rape of the Zulu for a couple of reasons:
1. we need them out of the way now
2. many other teams are sure to do it and we need to keep up.

IBT: Shanghai MDI -> knight

T9: 640AD Move troops and upgrade horses

IBT: another barb horse raids Swazi for 1g; Moscow knight -> knight

T10: 650AD Continue Positioning troops.

Notes: Research is off. We can upgrade 1 horse per turn this way. Should only need a couple more before we’re ready for Zulu.

We have the 2 big Zulu cities lined up. The horse army will be healed and the knight army will be filled next turn in Kazan.

Zulu have a settler/Impi/horseman NW of Nidaros that are going for our Gems and iron. We probably have no choice but to start smacking them around.

Beijing and Nanking will be ready to start pushing knights after the markets. We need them to get more happy faces for more spt, plus we can always use more money. Right now, one is on market and the other on knight, but both will need them eventually.


It’s getting crowded on the home island. Also, i've been trading WM's for about 5 to 10gpt each round, sometimes i get as much as 15 or 20gold.

sgotm5-jl-650AD-1.jpg


sgotm5-jl-650AD-2.jpg
 
Things look good. Five cities, the FP, and another leader are nice additions to our empire. Good work on the map trading, too. Extra cash is always nice, and with all those foreign workers changing the map, we can take advantage of the AI's willingness to buy it.

I don't want to break the Zulu RoP. We'll have to be traipsing all over the long island, and being able to get stuff for RoPs will be a good deal. We are big enough that people will pay for the privilege of having our troops move freely through their country, and we should take advantage of this. (Are there still a bunch of workers available for sale? Can we get more for RoPs?) "Everybody else will do it," isn't sufficient justification, especially when we have the highest score. Personally, I don't particularly care how we finish in the competition.

Why are we building workers in Linkoping?

Can we get a scientist to give us some research? The AI can't be counted on to give us anything in a timely fashion, so I'd rather do 40 turns with a scientist than nothing. On regent I often finish up a tech that I'm not really researching before the AI get around to it.

It is rather crowded by Moscow. Taking/razing the Indian cities should clear things out a bit. Indus and Chittagong at least shouldn't autoraze, and Indus will be a nice addition with the cow and the game.

I wish somebody would settle on those silks by Moscow. They'd be nice to have.
 
CKS said:
I don't want to break the Zulu RoP. We'll have to be traipsing all over the long island, and being able to get stuff for RoPs will be a good deal. We are big enough that people will pay for the privilege of having our troops move freely through their country, and we should take advantage of this. (Are there still a bunch of workers available for sale? Can we get more for RoPs?) "Everybody else will do it," isn't sufficient justification, especially when we have the highest score.
I agree with CKS on this, but for different reasons. I would rather save our ROP rape for later in the game against a nation that really requires it. The Arabs and Iroquois come to mind. By the time we get to them we will be in a position to ROP rape 10 or more cities in a turn. Seems better to me to wait. The zulu are weak enough that we can take them fast without a ROP abuse.


BTW: Got it. I will play early Sunday.

Start Edit: After looking at the situation some more, I really wish we had not renewed the ROP with the zulu. We could abuse them, but we won't be able to get ROPs later for abuse against others.

I am now torn, the abuse is all set up and ready to go. Should I go ahead and take them apart?
Additionally, our forces are not in position to attack anyone else. It would take much of my turnset to get them in position for an attack on England.

Beijing doesn't have Barracks yet, so I will probably get that first then crank out knights, the Market does not seem that important to me right now.

We can research Engineering in 8 turns at + 23 GPT. With only 4 horsemen left to upgrade, I think we should start doing so. IF we ROP Abuse the Zulu, I think we can do it with the forces we have now. Unless we decide to disconnect all our iron, we won't need money for upgrade again.

My suggested research strategy is a b-line for MT. Do not trade techs. Keep research at a profit, but not an excessive one.

End Edit
 
workers out of link are to get the dyes connected faster, thus allowing us to lower the lux rate. once connected, they can join a more productive town (Link has a lot of corruption, even with the FP) so we can make knights faster :hammer:
 
I'd feel happier with not doing RoP rape, but I don't have a strong opinion. Doing it now will probably have about the same effect for score as doing it to a larger empire down the line, but it is hard to tell how not being able to use RoPs peacefully will affect our score. Of course, if we do get a tech lead, I think we can often throw a tech or two on top of an RoP and that is enough to convince the AI to sign the RoP. I think.

But I trust your judgement, jeff, so whatever you do is fine.
 
market in beijing and Nanking will allow all 12 citizens to work the fields (borders will expand soon), and we'll get more gold. right now we have 10 citizens, with one forced to be a taxman. barracks is needed too, and it should not be doing a knight 1st, but the town is only doing 12spt since all citizens cannot work. it will do around 15 or so spt if all 12 can work. also, fighting without markets in the core, large cities is very difficult. i think the investment is worth it, but that's just my opinion, and i do feel very strongly about it. it has helped many of my gotm domination games. the markets will produce 5 more happy faces in each of the towns once the dyes are hooked up.

sorry if i went too gung-ho on the rop setup :( it should only take about 3 turns to get the MDI's in place. you can get engineering from the Zulu for mono and gold if you want to not do it but speed up movement. the rop seemed necessary at the time, but in retrospect, and seeing how everyone is reacting to the abuse, it was a stupid move. i apologize.
 
If the team thinks the ROP renewal was an error, then I too must share the blame. I did little to defend the border cities in anticipation of renewing the ROP. If I had expected not to renew the ROP, I would have defended the cities better and G-Man would have had a choice whether to renew or not.

Moving forward, I think we should start on England ASAP. If I remember correctly, the eastern English cities are smaller and should provide a nice target for our MDI & Sword troops. Once the Knight army arrives we can begin absorbing the English core. Once the ROP expires (about another 10 turns) we should have well defended borders and an attack force ready to take them out quickly.

As for the home island, with Moscow producing Knights often, we should be able to accumulate a SOD pretty quickly and run over most of the AI cities. With muskets on the horizon, we need to make the most of our knights.
 
denyd said:
If the team thinks the ROP renewal was an error, then I too must share the blame. I did little to defend the border cities in anticipation of renewing the ROP. If I had expected not to renew the ROP, I would have defended the cities better and G-Man would have had a choice whether to renew or not.
Let's not assign blame. We are all in this together and to have fun, not to point fingers. I may have been a little sharp and for that I appologize.

We are still making good progress.

As a note, I just finished playing. I decided to go ahead and commit the ROP abuse against the Zulu since our forces would have taken too long to re-array against England.

I'll get the file uploaded and the turn log posted In an hour or two.

Quick summary is that we took 6 Zulu cities and started to move our forces into position for :hammer:'ing England.
 
750AD Save

Turn 0 - 650 AD:
Switch Beijing to Marketplace.
I have decided not to undo the ROP abuse setup, so I leave the forces in position and prepare to abuse away.

IBT : Arabs start Sistine (They have Theology)

Turn 1 - 660 AD:
Prepare Treachery. Get forces next to the settler/impi/horsemen stack.
Perform a bunch of MM to maximize commerce while still getting builds in same time.
Trade a Zulu worker, 41gold and Monotheism to the Zulu for Engineering.
Research Invention at 40%.

IBT zzzzzzzz

Turn 2 - 670 AD:
Declare War on Zulu. (ROP treaty broken)
Battle of Ulundi - Horseman army kills Zulu Impi, Knight Army kills Zulu Impi and takes Ulundi.
Battle of Zimbabwe - Knight Kills Impi, MI kills Impi, MI kills Impi and takes Zimbabwe.
Elite Horseman kills Zulu Swordsman.

IBT zzzzzz

Turn 3 - 680 AD:
Knight army kills Zulu Impi in Hlobane
Capture 2 zulu settlers.

IBT Extend peace with Iroquois.

Turn 4 - 690 AD:
Battle of Hlobane - Elite Swordsman takes it.

IBT zzzzzzzzz

Turn 5 - 700 AD:
Move into position for attacks on Bapedi and Mpondo.

IBT zzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 6 - 710 AD:
Kink up Linkoping bringing the lux into the empire.
Battle of Bapedi. Lose Elite MI to Regular Impi, Kill Impi with Elite MI, Kill Impi with V. MI, Knight Army kills archer and takes Bapedi.

IBT zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 7 - 720 AD:
Move toward the last two zulu cities on the long island. (They have a city over in the desert on the western land mass.)
France has discovered Invention.

IBT Japan wants to renew trade for lux, but wants 3 luxes for it. Refuse because I'll have the Wool hooked up this turn anyway. One city goes into disorder because of it, but I shift through and fix the rest.

Turn 8 - 730 AD:
Battle of Mpondo: 2 Catapults bombard. (1 hits an Impi), Elite MI kills R Impi and promotes. Leader immediately forms army. Knight kills R Impi, MI kills V Impi, Knight kills Archer and takes Mpondo.
Battle of Tugela: Knight kills Impi, Knight Kills Impi and takes it.

IBT zzzzzzz

Turn 9 - 740 AD:
Take out a Zulu settler/impi pair.
Peace with the Zulu for maps, Republic 7gold an 3gpt.
Heal units and start moving toward England.

IBT zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Turn 10 - 750 AD:
Continue to move into position for England.

After Action Report
1. It may not be a big deal, but Moscow produces a knight every 4 turns. By doing two turns at max SPT and then 2 turns working the fish we can get two turns with an extra commerce.

2. There is an English Settler pair in old Zulu land. Don't miss them when we attack England.

3. Several Builds could change if you disagree. I have tried to mm the cities to get the best knight build times, but there were some cities that were off cycle, so need to be MMed to maximize knight production.

4. I did build the Marketplaces in Nanking and Beijing.

5. The jungles of China and Scandinavia are severely hampering production. We may want to build some more workers there or send some of the eastern slaves over to work.

6. If you get a chance, we can improve production in Moscow by planting some forests.

7. I think the homeland force is now large enough to tackle the Indians there. There are now defenders in all short island cities (I don't think I missed any)

8. There are several catapults on the way to England. The hard cities are in the west of England, so are our first targets.

9. Since the Galleys were not doing anything, I sent one of them to sail around the south of the Long Island. It should be able to continue to improve our world map so we can keep selling it for more money.

10. When we decaler on the Indians, I don't think we want to keep all the cities. I forgot to write down the once I think should be razed, but I'll edit this post in a few minutes with that info.
Edit I would suggest razing Ganges and Punjaab, neither have any real value to us. Chittagong could also be razed. Keep them if you want, but they will increase corruption on the long island AND will never be able to get about pop 2 or 3. (Punjaab can, but it can't get more than 5 spt, so it isn't worth it either.)

11. We are 1 turn from Invention.

Wow, I had a lot to say. Hope most of it makes sense.
I also started writing this before doing the screen captures, so I'll add a couple pretty pictures in a moment.

Here is a shot of the lands I liberated from the Zulu.
OldZululand_jeffe_sgotm5.jpg


And here is the galley I mentioned #9. He hasn't gotten anywhere interesting, but should go south and then East around the southern edge of the long island, discovering as much ocean as possible as it goes.
Galley2_jeffe_sgotm5.jpg
 
nice work jeff! 2 knight army's should do the trick vs England :) we're looking stronger and stronger.

those cities in the rear of former vikings lands could use some culture (Link, Bjoer, Darhan, etc), just so we prevent the AI from building towns back there that we don't want. even a single cultural expansion will cut off a lot of those tiles. also, we should continue with some infrastructure in the FP core now that Beijing and Nanking have markets. While they build knights, towns like Shanghai and Isand.. could build a library, 'duct, or market.
 
Nicely done. Unfortunately, the score graph shows that we are still even with Team smackster. I guess it all comes down to fastest finish anyway, so that doesn't really matter.

I think that wherever we see one tile islands, we should drop off a unit, obsolete when possible. We don't want some civ without cities to drop off their last settler on a one tile island. That would be disastrous. And while the odds of that are slim, that isn't a risk I want to take.

Oh, and I have the save.
 
bed_head7 said:
Nicely done. Unfortunately, the score graph shows that we are still even with Team smackster. I guess it all comes down to fastest finish anyway, so that doesn't really matter.
yes, and thier score keeps tracking steeper. keep up the :hammer: and remember to tax starve those new cities so we get all the population points we can :) btw, very good idea on those 1 tile islands. you have good eye for those :)
 
Nice job, jeff. It's too bad we can't do anything with all these leaders besides make armies. So, the Zulu are effectively gone, and the English are not long for this world.

About the ROP stuff, even though it is not what I would have done, it wasn't my choice to make. For me, this game is about having fun and learning about playing differently. I'm not going to learn anything if we do what I'd have done. And frankly, I'm not a great player and conquest isn't my style, so doing what I'd do would be a really bad strategy for us. ;)

As grahamiam said, we could use some cultural expansion. Since the AI aren't going to place cities close together and we can't build any cities, a little culture would get us more land - giving us score and places where the AI can't go.
 
Nice :hammer: on the Zulu. Quite an effective ROP rape and excellent point about the one tile islands. It looks like it's time to :hammer: on England. After Elizabeth, the Celts & Aztecs look pretty weak, Japan (still no iron) might be a better choice to prevent him from getting Samurai and then going back for the other two. From the looks of it the last couple of tribes (Egypt & America) our rotation, are pretty weak. The major bump in the road will probably be the Arabia/Persia/Iroquois segment. They've got a lot of land and are even with us on tech. With luck will be able to be sending Cossacks against them. After invention, gunpowder at best possible rate, we need to determine where the saltpeter is.
 
CKS said:
As grahamiam said, we could use some cultural expansion. Since the AI aren't going to place cities close together and we can't build any cities, a little culture would get us more land - giving us score and places where the AI can't go.
I concur. The main reason I didn'nt build things like that during my turns was so I could get enough of a force together to tackle the English. They will be the toughest AI we have fought yet.

BTW: The new army is empty and headed toward England now. It can be loaded with knights coming from the west as they catch up.
 
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/jeffelammar_SG005_AD0850_01.SAV

760 AD (1) - With Invention learned, we get Theology, then get everyone's workers by selling Theology. Declare on Indians.

770 AD (2) - Declare on English. Raze something Indian.

780 AD (3) - Hastings captured.

790 AD (4) - London captured (?). Indus and Chittagong as well. We have lost all of one knight through this whole thing.

800 AD (5) - Nothing doing. English threaten some island holding, hopefully it will hold. Fortunately, the one tile island is now safely in our possession.

sgotm5_jeffelammar_onetile.jpg


IT - The English archer won, and the defense there is down to a warrior.

810 AD (6) - The archer disappeared. Money trouble in England?

820 AD (7) - Capture Nottingham.

830 AD (8) - Not a lot, I guess.

840 AD (9) - Captured Dacca. Indians are off our continent. Capture Liverpool. I think in all of this, I have now lost one spearman and one knight.

850 AD (10) - Capture Canterbury.

Final notes -

In the north of the center island, mainly at Chittagong, the troops that are being produced there are being gathered to head to India. I think all of the center island's resources should go towards the small island, as they are pretty unneccessary elsewhere. For that reason, I moved all the galleys from the south up to the north, or at least began the movement.

At some point, I declared on the Mongols. CKS should have the honor of destroying them during his first turn, as a knight is outside their last city, and an MI took care of their other city.

I would suggest taking the last few worthwile English cities within reach, then take Southend, Dover, and whatever else can be had for peace.

Then in those areas, lets rush a longbowman and try to finish off the Zulus, who have their last city, Swazi, up on that same island.

There is an army outside of Bengal, a worthless island. Its only value to us is through the added territory, so we might as well hold onto it. In addition, it will make a decent landing point for units, and from that point we can take them up to India.

We should be able to tear right through the Celts and then the Aztecs in the next ten. The rate that we capture is escaliting. I razed four cities (three Indian, one Mongol) and captured nine cities (three Indian, six English). Too bad there are no railroads, as it takes forever to get units from one end of the big island to the other.

If we ever need anything from the AI, don't be afraid to renogotiate peace. They ignore our bad rep in renogotiation, so we can pay gpt for stuff. And, they are willing to pay for peace. For instance, I got two workers from the Americans for peace and something like 20g. I think that about covers it. I must have been infected by whatever made jeff write so much at the end of his turns.

sgotm5_jeffelammar_england.jpg
 
Just submitted the save, and it looks like I lost a tiny bit of ground to Team smackster. Entering this, I had no real desire to win, but now that it looks like we are in a tight tight race, it is sort of exciting.
 
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