SGOTM6 - Xteam

[AlanH]

Looking back at the turn log I see we spent that hard earned cash on Mono and Republic. Sorry to rant, but neither of those were on our shopping list. We were only researching Republic at 10% so that we could trade it. Once it was out there it was useless to us. Mono doesn't buy us anything much now either. We'll need it to reach the next era of course, but pointy sticks and/or a visit to the Great Library could do that for us. Right now we need the pointy sticks, and our UU window of opportunity is in danger of closing before we've even built it.

 

[AlanH]

Has anyone confirmed the 50 gold for upgrade price? Nethog's Civ3 PTW Unit Summary sheet says it is only 40 gold. If not I might try to run through a test game to verify it. Would MB have changed this?.

Since the shield cost is 50 for a eurosword vs 10 for a warrior the upgrade cost is 40 x 2 = 80 gold. I can't see how M-B could change that, as I imagine the formula is built into the game.

 

[Gyathaar]

I say lets not get feudalism yet (and not education if it seems like we can benefit from capturing GLib), that way we can keep building UU for a long time.

This is just emperor/demigod difficulty, so should be easy for us to overrun one AI at a time.

 

[mad-bax]

I haven't changed it. There was an interesting discussion opened by cracker a while back about the cost of Gallics. The AI don't build them because of the expense. He advocated a reduction to 40 shields for GOTM. Then C3C turned up and lo and behold Gallics are 40 shields. I have been thinking about making the change for classic civ in SGOTM.

 

[DJMGator13]

Right now we need the pointy sticks, and our UU window of opportunity is in danger of closing before we've even built it.

That's been my point of pushing/steering this discussion. I know we have to keep building settlers but we also need some swords. If we slow our settler production now crank out swords, take over China and set up a second production core there, we would then have 2 cores that could both make some settlers to catch up.

 

[AlanH]

Our UU won't be useful for very much longer - another 3 techs, so maybe 30 turns tops. So there's not a lot of point in being able to build a lot more of them. I don't think we'd want to use our UU to capture the Library, even if we can reach them in that timescale. A Library capture should be timed to grab us most of the Middle Age techs, and that probably means using knights or cavalry.

Remember we need to use our UU to get us horses for the cavalry phase - that was one of the reasons for going after China. And we'll need to get to cavalry before the AI gets to infantry

 

[Gyathaar]

Ok.. lets go full out on swords, thou I expect the settlerfactory cities has to alternate between swords and settlers to prevent them from growing too big?

We also need to start building the FP if we havent yet to prepare for the palace jump asap

 

[AlanH]

That's been my point of pushing/steering this discussion. I know we have to keep building settlers but we also need some swords. If we slow our settler production now crank out swords, take over China and set up a second production core there, we would then have 2 cores that could both make some settlers to catch up.

I agree. I was thinking we had money for upgrades, but now I see why you are concerned. However, waiting 30 turns while we create new swords sounds like too many turns to me. Maybe we have to declare on Babylon to kill the gpt deal?

@M-B that would reduce the upgrade cost to 60 gold, but where does Gator's 40 come from? Does PtW really get them for that? If so we are at a big disadvantage on vanilla.

 

[DJMGator13]

I haven't changed it. There was an interesting discussion opened by cracker a while back about the cost of Gallics. The AI don't build them because of the expense. He advocated a reduction to 40 shields for GOTM. Then C3C turned up and lo and behold Gallics are 40 shields. I have been thinking about making the change for classic civ in SGOTM.

That's another item that will create a scoring difference between the CivIII and C3C games.

@80gold for upgrade we can afford 1 upgrade every 3 turns, for the next 11 turns and then 1 upgrade every 2 turns. So it would take us 30 turns to have enough gold to upgrade 13-15 swords.

Gold for upgrade on turn
3,6,9,12 (3 turn rate)
14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30 (2 turn rate)
this gets us 13 upgrades - not counting any we build by hand

using the treasury would probably only buy us 1 (2 at the most) more upgrade because my numbers already use a little of the treasury

So if we have 13 to 15 vet warriors its time to hook up the iron to start amassing our gold and swords

 

[DJMGator13]

@M-B that would reduce the upgrade cost to 60 gold, but where does Gator's 40 come from? Does PtW really get them for that? If so we are at a big disadvantage on vanilla.

In the Reference section is an upgrade chart. Here is a link for the PTW pdf.

 

[Gyathaar]

I am making a test ptw game to test this (chieftain and all random.. and lo and behold i get a river start with 2 weats and 2 cows in city radius )

 

[DJMGator13]

@Gyathaar - great minds think alike

I started a test game using Alans All-in-One GOTM mod in Civ3. I got a cow and a wheat river start, although the wheat is for 2nd city. I made mine monarch to push the tech pace and made sure to have a few sci civs in the game. I've already acquire IW and have a settler inroute to my nearest iron.

I'm about to head out for lunch but I should be able to tell you my cost in a few hours.

 

[Gyathaar]

warrior to gallic swordsman upgrade costs 80gold in ptw

 

[AlanH]

In the Reference section is an upgrade chart. Here is a link for the PTW pdf.

That chart says warrior to sword is 40 gold, but a sword is only 30 shields. The chart doesn't show the upgrade cost to gallic sword, but it confirms that the gallic sword shield cost is 50. So I think the chart just confirms what we already know.

 

[mad-bax]

The Gallic Sword is 50 shields in PTW with an upgrade cost of 80g. The European sword is 50 shields in 1.29f with exactly the same stats, with an upgrade cost of 80g. Both are obsoleted be feudalism.

Here are the stats from the editor for your personal bic, and RowAndLives' PTW bix for comparision.

 

[DJMGator13]

In my test game using the GOTM scenario it cost 60 gold to upgrade warrior to european sword. I'll try to post a screenshotm later, because my internet conection is screwy right now.

 

[mad-bax]

Aha! If this is the bluebox conversion then it is probably derived from GOTM25 or later. SGOTM mod is based on 23. They may be different.

Every GOTM between 16 and 28 is a different mod. I just happened to base the SGOTM mod on 23.

 

[DJMGator13]

Yes, it is the Bluebox conversion, that has the cost of 60gold.

 

[leif erikson]

Very interesting discussion. Haven't started to play yet as I just finished reading and then reviewed the save to see what I could add.

The biggest issue seems to be Gold for upgrade. Thinking about it, we have to decide how important our Rep is in this game. If it is not important, then we declare on Babylon. That still only allows us one upgrade every 2 turns, painfully slow but better than one every 4 turns. Should we declare, how much is it going to cost to gain some allies? We have Monotheism that some of them may want, after we build the embassies we will need?

I also understand that we do NOT want to obtain Feudalism until we have enough upgraded EuroSwords. No option looks particularly promising.

Looking at the save, we have about 19 or 20 Vet Warriors ready for upgrade. The problem with this, besides Gold, will be filling in for the Vets on MP duty so they can leave and attack China. I think we should change the builds in the outlaying cities to Warrior to make Reg Warriors to backfill the Vets.

There are 3 Settlers due next turn and I think we should build them because more towns mean more gold and more units supported. We should keep the settler factories going and build an Archer between 2 Settlers as much as we can, imho.

Looking at Agedincum for a FP, there are no bonus grasses there and, as Gator pointed out, it is on the 5 rings, so there is 33% corruption. It is producing 1 shield and will grow in 9 turns. We can build a Courthouse, but it is going to be a slow process. The only way I can see to speed things up is to merge a few workers, that we don't have to spare. The only other option is to build it on Ratae Coritanorum (wahtever it is??) which is producing 5 shields with one corrupt. So a FP would be available in 50 turns or less, with growth. It is also on ring 1, with 11% corruption. While less optimal, it may have to do.

I am going to wait to start because I think we have to decide about Babylon and the FP site. This is one of those critical junctures where I'd rather hear some more rather than march on and screw up!!

EDIT - Forgot to say that I do see your point Gator and believe we must change some inner ring cities to EuroSwords because even with declaration on Babylon, it will still take too long to do upgrades alone.

 

[DJMGator13]

Our main goal with the China war, as Gyathaar has said, is to gain control of the horses. Would 10-12 swords be enough to grab the horses and a few cities then sue for peace? If we go this route I would say lets honor the gpt deal since we may need to acquire techs, resources or luxes later in the game. I usually don't worry about my rep much but this is pretty early to be trashing it.