SGOTM6 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

There are 4 turns until we connect the Iron. In that time, we should gain another 100 Gold. That would give us about 280 Gold, or 3 upgrades. I checked CRpMapstat and selling Monotheism at bargain basement proces, we could gain about 95 Gold, or one more upgrade (Vikings 42 Gold, Iroquois 28 Gold, Mongols 15 Gold and India 10 Gold). In 4 additional turns we would gain another upgrade as well, that is 5 in 8 turns. I know we could build one in Verulamium using a Library as a pre-build in, iirc, 4 more turns. That's 6. In 10 turns, we may get another 1 or 2, but that is about all. Perhaps 7 or 8 in 10 turns.

Then we have to be able to hold on to what we take and we are weak compared to China. I'm sure they have built mostly Spears but they have horses and counters would be even up, both fast attack and 2 Attack versus our 2 Defense. Could get very interesting. However, after SGOTM05, nothing is impossible, it just may take a little longer.

 

[leif erikson]

I haven't started yet, planning to give it a shot in a couple of hours. If anyone has anything to say about Babylon, China or FP site, please do? Otherwise, I shall try to muddle through as best as I can.

 

[AlanH]

Re. the FP: If the FP can be built significantly earlier in the radius 3 town then let's do it. The benefit of having it sooner outweighs the few town sites that won't come within its radius 5.

Re. Babylon and China: I think we have a window of opportunity for our EuroSwords to grab horses and territory from China. That window might disappear rather soon, so I'm very nervous of leaving it for 20 or 30 turns to attack. I therefore reluctantly vote to trash our rep by declaring on Babylon to retrieve the cash flow we need for upgrades.

 

[Gyathaar]

We can always go per turn deals by renegotiation peace, so go ahead and trash rep as far as i am concerned (not like we are going for a diplomacy dictory so )

 

[leif erikson]

I had a problem with the SGOTM upload page. I got the following message: gotm_games lookup failed. So I will attach the save at the end of this post and try to resubmit later.

The short version is that there are 16 EuroSwords available, 15 are in position for use against China. There will be 5 more available within the next 5 turns. We are 2 turns into our Golden Age and are making over 80 GPT atm. This really helped in the upgrades.

Our Forbidden Palace is 20 turns away and located in Ratae Coritanorum.

We were at war with Babylon, Mongols and Carthage but have since made peace with Babylon and Mongols. I suspect we will be able to make peace with Carthage in about 6 or 7 more turns.

The detailed turn log follows:

Turn 100 – 550 BC
Pre-flight.
Let the Settlers build in Entremont, Mohacs and Camulodunum.
Change Richborough to Barracks. MM for more shields.
Change Verulamium to Library as a pre-build for EuroSword.
Change Lapurdum to Warrior.
Change Agedincum to Warrior.
Change Burdigala to Warrior.
Change Agedincum to Warrior.
Change Lindum to Warrior.
Change Cataractonium to Warrior.
Change Ratae Coritanorum to Forbidden Palace, MM for food. Due in 50 turns instead of 200 in Agedincum. Ratae also is in ring one for less corruption, check with team on site. Basically, OK.
Change Lugdunum to Library as a pre-build for EuroSword.
Babylon, Japan and France are all way out in front while Babylon has got the culture lead.
We may have to trash our rep to get our GPT back from Babylon, check with the team on this. Some agree, so we shall. Checking the map, the Babylonians are far removed with very poor routes to get to us. We could be at war 20 turns and never see them, so we’ll declare without allies. As long as they don’t find a surrogate to come fight us for them.
OK, I go to Babylon and demand they give us Shuruppak and they reject our demand, so I declare war on them.

We are now getting 52 GPT instead of 24. That should help.
OK, press enter.

IBT
Babylon has allied with the Mongols against us.
Settler => Library (as a pre-build) in Entremont, Mohacs and Camulodunum.
Richborough Barracks => Library (as a pre-build).
The Japanese are building Sun Tzu’s Art of War.

Turn 101 – 530 BC
Worker roads Iron Mtn., completes in 3 turns.
Move Elite Archer to the SW to help face the Mongols.
Change Mohacs build to a Barracks.
Settler founds the town of Curovernum and we start a Warrior.
Change Augustodurum to Warrior.

IBT
Burdigala Warrior => Barracks.

Turn 102 – 510 BC
Some MM and troops moving west.

IBT
Our Exploring Warrior defeats a Barb Horse that attacks it.
A Japanese Galley moves into the straits near Lugdunum.

Turn 103 – 490 BC
Settler founds the town of Glanum on the spices and starts a Worker.
France has discovered Theology.
We visit the Vikings and trade Monotheism to them in exchange for Monarchy and 72 Gold, all they had.
We visit the Iroquois and trade Monotheism to them in return for WM plus 61 Gold, all they had.
We trade our WM around and get updated maps plus 73 Gold.

IBT
We complete the road to bring Iron into Entremont.
A Mongol Archer moves near Glanum.
Augustodurum Warrior => Worker.

Turn 104 – 470 BC
Change the following cities builds to EuroSword – Entremont, Camulodunum, Verulamium, Lugdunum and Richborough.
Change Eborucum build to Barracks.
Start with 586 Gold, upgrade 3 Vet Warriors in Entremont, 2 Vet Warriors in Richborough, 1 in Verulamium and 1 in Ratae Coritanorum. We now have 7 EuroSwords.
The Mongols still refuse to see us.
The Chinese have Feudalism.

IBT
Mongol Archer fortifies in the woods near Glanum.
Geogovia Worker => Worker.

Turn 105 – 450 BC
Move Warriors around to cover MP duty as EuroSwords move to the Chinese border and towards the Mongols.
Settler founds the town of Isca (good, one I can spell) and start a Warrior.
Settler founds the town of Segusio and start a Worker.
The Japanese, French and English have discovered Engineering.

IBT
Another Mongol Archer moves into position near Glanum.
Mohacs Barracks => EuroSword.
Cataractonium Warrior => Archer.


Turn 106 – 430 AD
As we move our Elite Archer near Nemausus, we can see a third Mongol Archer in the hills to the west.
Move 3 EuroSwords into the area to face the Mongol Archers.
Settler founds the town of Rutupiae and starts a Warrior.
Upgrade a Vet Warrior in Mohacs for 80 Gold.

IBT
Two Mongol Archers move onto the BG that is between Nemuasus and Glanum.
Agedincum Warrior => Archer
Eboracum Barracks => Archer.
Lindum Warrior => Worker.
The Chinese are building the Sistine Chapel, one less city producing units.
The Indians and Americans are building The Hanging Gardens.

Turn 107 – 410 BC
Elite Archer attacks Reg Mongol Archer and, losing 1 HP to a defensive free shot, defeats him, now 3/5.
Vet Warrior attacks Reg Mongol Archer and defeats him, now 3/4.
Move 2 EuroSwords into Nemausus to defend. Send the third back for the Chinese border.
Upgrade Warrior in Eboracum for 80 Gold.

IBT
The Vikings request an audience. They want us to give them 9 Gold for a World Map swap, no thanks.
We lose a Vet Warrior to a Mongol Archer, who promotes to vet.
The Carthaginians have formed an alliance with Babylon and declare war on us.
The English are building Sun Tzu’s Art of War.

Turn 108 – 390 BC
A Vet EuroSword attacks a Vet Mongol Archer and dies , Archer promotes to elite.
A Vet EuroSword attacks a 3/5 Mongol Archer and defeats him and we enter our Golden Age. Our EuroSword promotes.
A Vet Warrior is upgrade in Richborough for 80 Gold.
Elite Archer moves into Nemausus.
We meet with The Babylonians and they want peace. For peace we give them our WM.
The Mongols and Carthaginians are not ready to talk yet.

IBT
Our Exploring Warrior defeats a Mongol Archer.
EuroSword => EuroSword in Entremont, Lugdunum, Camulodunum and Richborough.
Worker => Archer in Augustodurum.
Barracks => Settler in Burdigala.

Turn 109 – 370 BC
Explring Warrior fortifies to heal.
Move EuroSword into Nemausus to heal.
Move EuroSwords to Lapurdum and stack there.
Upgrade a Vet Warrior in Camulodunum for 80 Gold.
Meet with the Mongols and they give us 20 Gold and the town of Mandalgovi, near the Chinese border. Start an Archer. Hire a taxman.

IBT
A French Galley sails into our northern territory.
EuroSword => EuroSword in Verulamium,
Lapurdum Warrior => Archer.
Tolosa Barracks => EuroSword.
Nemausus Worker => Worker.

Turn 110 – 350 BC
Move EuroSwords up to Verulamium and Lapurdum.
Upgrade a Vet Warrior in Richborough for 80 Gold.
Exploring Warrior S, heading for home?
MM Mohacs for shields and to keep pop at 6.
MM Richborough to keep pop at size 6.

After Action Report.
We are 2 turns into our Golden Age, which has helped in Gold for upgrades and in pumping out some EuroSwords. In addition, we are at peace with the Babylonians and the Mongols, but still at war with the Carthaginians (They still refuse to talk). In making peace with the Mongols, they gave us a city near the Chinese border, 9 squares NW of Nemausus.

There are now 16 EuroSwords for your use; 8 in Lapurdum, 5 in Verulamium, 2 in Richborough and 1 in Nemausus (in the southwest). I think only one has been moved this turn and one was upgraded from a warrior so has no movement left.

We are making 85 GPT and have 24 Gold in the treasury. We are 9.0.1. Within the next 5 turns, 5 more EuroSwords will complete. If this is sufficient, I think you can resume the production of Settlers in our core cities as I MM some of them to halt growth to size 7. I have begun building Archers to serve MP duty. Beware when you upgrade warriors as I have been backfilling regular warriors as I upgrade the vets and moved them northwest. Spices will be connected in 2 more turns.

Generally, Feudalism, Engineering and Theology are well known among the larger civs. China knows them all, so we may be able to get some pointy stick from them as well as horses. China still does not have iron, so no Pikes or Knights. The Chinese currently have 17 cities.

We are second from the bottom on the score page with a Firaxis score of 399. Japan tops the list with 790, followed by Babylon with 725, France 714, China 552, Iroquois 526, America 513, England 463, Vikings 449, India 448, Carthage 410 and Mongols at 396. We are looking good in the power graph though!


Good Luck WillowBrook, let's throw the Chinese out so we can have a second core!!

Edit - Spelling??
Edit2 - Personal Note: Promised to take the family skiing tomorrow, so I may not have a chance to check in to answer any questions until late in the day tomorrow, say after 7PM EST.

 

[AlanH]

Sorry, that upload problem was a bug I had introduced when I added automation for QSC scoring. I've fixed it and uploaded the save.

 

[DJMGator13]

Nice turns leif.

Am I correct in saying we still do not want to learn (trade for) Feudalism, so we can keep building our euroswords instead of MDIs.

I usually like to research during my GA. You can frequently get 4-5 turn research rate. Should we consider turning on our research again and pursue the bottom path towards MT (or does this require us to have Feudalism - I don't have a tech tree in front of me)?

Good luck Willow.

 

[WillowBrook]

Great job, Leif!

Unfortunately, I've concluded that I have to ask to be skipped this time around. I was really looking forwad to beating up on the Chinese. But I'm leaving for a week in Italy on Thursday, and I spent way too much time finishing a 100k culture win in COTM 9, so I'm behind on everything else in life. I'm sorry if this messes up anyone else's schedule (I think this brings up Gator), but I thought COTM 9 would take much less than the 70+ hours it did.

I will take a look at the save at some point before I leave and give my thoughts/suggestions/questions. I'll be back Friday March 4, so I shouldn't need another skip.

 

[DJMGator13]

Sorry to hear that you need a skip, but hopefully the trip to Italy will make up for it. Is the trip business or a vacation? And may I say WOW 70 hours. I think I finished mine in about 16 hours and some of that was idle time away from the computer with the game running.

BTW, I answered my own question after remembering the tech tree in the reference section. The bottom path to MT requires Feudalism also. So the only tech we could rersearch is Theology and we can probably acquire that from China in a peace deal after we gain the horses.

So if nobody sees any other issues to discuss (other than increasing our spam count ) I'll probably play tonight after work, around 7pm est.

I'll check back prior to playing.

 

[Gyathaar]

@WillowBrook: Sounds like you got some good first hand experiance with the work required for a communism 100k victory now

With that few cities, and neither religious or scientific it must have been rough to poprush/draft-disband that many high cost buildings

 

[WillowBrook]

Thanks, Gator!

The trip to Italy is vacation. At age 27 I'm still a student, and have finally realized that free time like "spring break" may not continue to be available once I join the real world. So a friend and I found cheap plane tickets, and we're going to see all we can of Rome and Florence in a few days.

Edit: @Gyathaar - yes, the need for all luxes and marketplaces became very apparent. I have more details in the spoiler thread.

 

[AlanH]

Have fun in Italy, WillowBrook. I love to go there whenever I can. You might want to PM Karasu before you leave. I think he lives in Florence and may be able to give you some pointers for your trip.

Just to keep the spam flowing, I'm not sure why we need to avoid Feudalism now. I doubt if Euroswords will continue to be useful for long and they don't upgrade. We might be better to head for Cavalry. Even knights would be better if Chivalry comes up in a peace deal, but we can't even get that if we don't have Feudalism. They cost 70 shields instead of 50, but they have extra attack and defence over euroswords, and they can upgrade cheaply to cavalry.

 

[WillowBrook]

Just to keep the spam flowing, I'm not sure why we need to avoid Feudalism now.

Can we still build our Euroswords if we have the tech required for their "upgrade"? (Feudalism is that tech, I believe.)

I do agree that knights would be nice, but we need the horses first. And for longer-term planning, I'm thinking we may have to count on the capture of TGL to catch up in tech - and if we end up facing infantry, to do it, we'll need cavs. But techs will get cheap. The 4-culture universities will be wanted at some point, too, so we'll need to discuss in more detail (if such a capture is our plan) as to when we want to do it.

 

[Tomoyo]

AFAIK Unis are 3 cpt. I'm not sure, though.

We can build Euroswords with Feudalism only if we didn't have our GA yet.

Are you sure we need to capture the GL? Is it possible to do some pointy-stick research on the Mongols/Japanese later?

 

[WillowBrook]

AFAIK Unis are 3 cpt. I'm not sure, though.

They were 4 cpt in COTM 9 - is that a change from vanilla to C3C?

We can build Euroswords with Feudalism only if we didn't have our GA yet.

So as long as we want Euroswords, we need to avoid feudalism.

Are you sure we need to capture the GL? Is it possible to do some pointy-stick research on the Mongols/Japanese later?

Nope, not at all sure we'll need to - but I'm thinking we should keep that option open for a little while yet.

 

[Tomoyo]

Eh, what'd'ya know, I checked, and they are four cpt.

 

[leif erikson]

Just to keep the spam flowing, I'm not sure why we need to avoid Feudalism now. I doubt if Euroswords will continue to be useful for long and they don't upgrade. We might be better to head for Cavalry. Even knights would be better if Chivalry comes up in a peace deal, but we can't even get that if we don't have Feudalism. They cost 70 shields instead of 50, but they have extra attack and defence over euroswords, and they can upgrade cheaply to cavalry.

I agree with Alan's points, although I think we should beware of taking Feudalism until we know we have horses, and that means that China should be defeated. We'll have to get some roads up and running into China and I didn't move too many workers that way, sorry Gator, should have done that.

Regarding research during the Golden Age, the more advanced civs already know Theology, Feudalism and Engineering, so they'll be cheaper to buy than research, imho.

Good luck Gator. And have a great vacation WilliowBrook. Italy is always nice.

 

[DJMGator13]

Preturn - 350BC
turn animations back on
move some swords towards China
confirm neoCart still won't talk
since we still have a bunch of warriors - I decide not to research until we have secured the horses

IBT - not much / AMR is building Sun Tzu
Curovernum warrior => worker (1shield city)

Turn 1 - 330BC
hire a taxman in Camulodunum instead of raising lux rate
upgrade a vWarrior
mm Entremont for sword in 2 vrs 3
neoCart still won't talk
I have 2 stacks of 8 swords ready to attack China next turn

IBT - CHN settler pair appears near Mandalgovi / VIK building Sun Tzu
Mohacs sword => sword
Cataractonium archer => archer

Turn 2 - 310BC
we will probably lose Mandalgovi when I declare on CHN but we should be able to recapture it or even get it back in peace deal - need for horses outweighs waiting to try to send some units there - instead I rush a spear there - as long as CHN doesn't have any horses nearby we might be able to keep the city

neoCart still won't talk
mmEntremont back to grow (sword still in 1)
our spices are now connected - put the taxman back to work in the fields
upgrade a vWarrior

try to extort THEO from China - no dice so I issue DOW
advance 1 stack on Ningpo (size 1 but on our way to the horses)

Battle for Kaifeng (CHN)
capture a worker with a rWarrior
vSword vrs rSpear - we retreat inflicting no damage
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline, win and capture city
there is another worker available but he is trapped by the city - I grab it next turn - don't want to waste a sword on it

Battle for Chengdu (CHN)
vSword vrs vSpear - we win down 1hp
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline, win, promo to elite and autoraze the city (again its on the way to the horses)
vSword vrs rWarrior/settler - we win gain 2 workers

IBT - no direct counterattack by China / the FRA galley unloads a horse and warrior(?) in Japan / Japan archer comes out of city after them
Entremont sword => sword
Lugdunum sword => sword
Agedincum archer => archer
Eboracum archer => archer
Mandalgovi spear => warrior
Glanum worker => archer

Turn 3 - 290BC
neoCart still won't talk
upgrade a vWarrior

Battle for Ningpo (CHN)
vSword vrs rSpear - we die but redline the spear
vSword vrs 1/3 rSpear - we DIE - spear promos
vSword vrs the now 2/4 vSpear - we redline and avenge the unjust death of our brother sword and autoraze the city, gain 2 workers also
the city was on a hill but that hurt - lost 2 swords and redlined another to kill a single spear

capture the trapped worker by Kaifeng
healing a few wounded swords / moving towards horses

IBT - spy another CHN settler pair, a horse and a few archers move, but no direct counter attack / FRA declares war on Japan / ENG are building Sistine

Turn 4 - 270BC
neoCart still won't talk
upgrade a vWarrior

move troops towards horses and Hangchow

IBT - 2nd CHN settler pair is moving, looks like CHN units are moving to either the horse city or to flank us to the west and move on Mandalgovi
Camulodunum sword => settler
Richborough sword => sword
Gergovia worker => worker
Augustodurum archer => barracks
Isca warrior => temple
Segusio worker => worker

Turn 5 - 250BC
neoCart still won't talk
upgrade a vWarrior
move 5 swords next to Tatung
I let the 1 CHN settler/spear pair through our front line since they are on a mountain
I have a warrior and injured sword next to the other CHN settler pair

Battle for Hangchow (CHN)
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly and capture city

The Road to Horses
vSword vrs rArcher - we win down 1hp, promo to elite
move 7 more swords towards Canton

IBT - CHN attack Mandalgovi, we kill first eWarrior and die to a 2nd eWarrior - town is razed / CHN horse dies attacking our stack outside Tatung / neoCart requests an audience, we agree to peace for their Wmap / BAB are building Sistine / MON are building Sun Tzu / neoCart are building Sistine
Mohacs swords => settler (size 7 now)
Burdigala settler => harbor
Rutupiae warrior => temple
add a stage to the front of our cave

Turn 6 - 230BC

Battle of Tatung (CHN)
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat, inflict no damage
vSword vrs rSpear - we win down 2 hp
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline, win, and capture city with 3 workers inside it
vSword vrs rArcher outside of city - we win down 2hp

move 9 swords within striking distance of Canton

Just realized that China is building 3 Wonders, while I'm taking their cities

eSword kills rWarrior in the open down 2hp
we only have one vWarrior left that has not been upgraded

IBT - CHN settler pairs move / MON want to talk, trade Wmaps / VIK building Sistine
Entremont sword => sword
Lugdunum sword => sword
Eboracum archer => sword
Cataractonium archer => temple
Lapurdum archer => temple
Lindum worker => worker

Turn 7 - 210BC

Battle for Horses (Canton)
short battle vSword kills rSpear and we now have horses

vSword dies attacking a vArcher on a mt
2nd vSword kills the offending archer

move troops on to Beijing / position more to assualt Nanking also
healing some troops

IBT - what is China thinking, they declare on JPN - they also found Chengdu near spices / IRQ are building Sistine & Sun Tzu
Camulodunum settler => settler
Agedincum archer => barracks

Turn 8 - 190BC

Battle for Beijing
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat inflict 1hp of damage
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly and promo to elite
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and then hit 3 times in a row to win
4/5 eSword vrs 2/3rSpear - we win down 1 hp and capture city with a worker

Battle for Nanking
vSword vrs rSpear - we take a hit from an archer then retreat inflict 1hp
vSword vrs rSpear - we die inflict 1hp of damage
call off attack - at least 3 units in defense and I only have 2 left
move in more troops

move troops towards Shanghai

IBT - CHN archer from Nanking attacks a sword and dies / other CHN settler founds a town / VIK complete Hanging Gardens / cascades AMR to Sun Tzu
Mohacs settler => settler

Turn 9 - 170BC

Battle for Nanking (part 2)
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat, inflict 1hp
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly
vSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - we win flawlessly and capture city

Battle for Tientsen
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat
call off attack - only had 2 swords here and another rSpear popped up

Battle for Shanghai
vSword vrs rSpear - we deflect archer shot then die inflict 1hp
call off attack - move in a few more troops

upgrade the last vWarrior that has finally made it to a barrack
our exploring eWarrior is trapped on the other side of neoCart

IBT - IRQ declares on Japan / JPN, BAB, neoCart, ENG, IRQ, IND building Sistine / FRA, ENG building Leo's / MON, ENG building Sun Tzu / CHN finally learned ENGIN now everyone has FEUD, ENGIN and THEO
Richborough sword => sword
Verulamium sword => sword
Augustodurum barracks => horse
Nemausus worker => temple

Turn 10 - 150BC

Battle for Tientsen (part 2)
vSword vrs rSpear - we win down 1hp promo to elite
vSword vrs rSpear - we win down 1hp and capture city

Battle for Shanghai (part 2)
vSword vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat
4/5 eSword vrs rSpear - we redline and win
eSword vrs rSpear - we win down 2hp and capture city
3/4 vSword vrs rArcher outside of city - we win

Notes to next player
1)after re-founding 2 cities China is down to 10 cities, we have 3 more size 2+ cities that we can grab in the next few turns, then we should sue for peace and gain the techs and the 3 size 1 cities - currently China will give either all 3 size 1 cities or 2 techs and 2 of the cities - so after we take the other 3 cities we should hopefully be able to get all 3 techs and all 3 cities
2) I left a few troops unmoved, but most troops need to heal - I also did not cycle thru the cities because it was late and I wanted to post the save
3) After finishing off China I think we should hit the Mongols - we are currently strong to them and they have a horse near their border also
4) I have 3 settlers moving to some open area
5) we're up to 27 swords - keep the pressure on

the save

 

[WillowBrook]

Well done, Gator!

 

[Gyathaar]

Am I up now? I lost count of the order
Looks like there is a chance we can jump palace before end of my turns, if so I will do it.

Oh, I assume making peace for cities and then instantly redeclare is ok since we already broke rep?