SGOTM7 - Team tao

I now would be in favour of finishing engineering as it gives us forest planting (to get shields in India and Zululand via our plethora of slaves) and the movement in our heartlands.

We could make a little investment in infrastructure till we finish engineering. Also build some pikes, some axemen.

IIRC CivAssist II gives about 10% lower base tech cost for chivalry than for feudalism.

Do we want to hurry barracks and upgrade our swords to axemen before attacking the rest of the Zulus?
 
tao said:
I now would be in favour of finishing engineering as it gives us forest planting (to get shields in India and Zululand via our plethora of slaves) and the movement in our heartlands.
I agree now that we are so close. It also allows us to build up a reserve of horses to upgrade once we get Chiv as I guess we will switch research off. It seems that we won't need anything more powerful than knights at this rate.
 
So our choice is between Chivalry in about six turns without any guarantee we'll get Engineering any time soon and Chivalry in about twelve turns (assuming it isn't researched elsewhere first) with Engineering in 7? With only 50-odd turns left in the game, that's a significant difference: ~ 38 turns we'd have knights versus ~44.

How much do we really need shields in India/Zululand? The one use for forest chops I can come up with without half trying is for producing settlers out of the corrupt regions. A few chops per city could get a settler or two out of every one in time to get where they're needed and could make a big difference to the ease of grabbing all that coastal area. Madras in particular may be useful for this, because it has a granary. Corrupt towns will need to work irrigated grassland, obviously.

I guess I'm not against finishing Engineering provided we do upgrade our swords at the front, and provided we spend nearly all the time and all our cities between now and then building horses. I'm not exactly for it, though; I hate the delay.

Here's my list of suggestions:

: I suggest closing down the operations at AI Bait in the near future, once we've secured the Ulundi area. The cats and galleys there can be shifted southeast to Jungle Port to pick off galleys trying to sneak by on either side of our main island; a second collection of cats and galleys around Ulundi could do the same for any interlopers coming up Arabia's east coast. With Bapedi in our hands, the AIs will have no chance of sneaking into our backyard via unexplored sea tiles until astronomy is discovered, and by controlling those two points, we will be able to leave cities and regions undefended where troops are not needed for MPs, suppression of resistance, or flip-recovery.

I also suggest getting to domination primarily with settlers, not libraries, because of the maintenance issue. I also suggest to settle primarily along the coasts, so that most of the coastal tiles can be claimed without having to build libraries. We can rush libraries where they are needed on the coasts and to fill in inland gaps as we get closer to the end of the game.

City-based suggestions:

Sogut can get to 20spt with two more mined plains. It doesn't matter now, but will allow 3-turn knights after Chivalry with a ten-shield short-rush of a pike after the first turn. (GL will also be able to do 3-turn knights.)

Antalya needs one more MP to avoid rioting at size 9. I'd have it build several more horses first before going to a market; it'll take 20 turns to grow naturally to size 10. By that time we may even have another lux and not need a market; Antalya is too low-commerce to bother building one for cash.

Bangalore should rush a settler once it's out of resistance; that'll spread the flip risk of having two Indian citizens in the same town without having to starve it. Madras might also build a settler.

Uskudar also needs an MP in a few turns. It shouldn't be allowed to finish its settler until it hits size 9 or it'll empty its granary on regrowth to size 7. South Beach has the same issue, but since it has no granary, it doesn't really matter.

Hlobane -- the elite sword should be moved out so it can join the attack and replaced with one of the vets from the stack to the southeast. The cats and workers should also be evacuated; we don't want to lose them if Hlobane flips.

Izmit could really use a harbor. One of the few infrastructure builds I'm all for. In the meantime, the grassland tile to its northwest could also be irrigated. With both those things and few worker joins, the town would be able to work that unused mountain tile, which should get it to 14spt -- perfect for knights.

Aydin should have one worker joined to get it to size 7 for the extra unit support. Will require Epulu to shuffle some tiles.

The Lahore/New Calcutta area needs some work, but I'm not sure what's best.

Bursa could use an aqueduct once the time for horses is over.

As Tao pointed out, Jungle Port can be put into WLTKD and still retain its two shields. That would also free up a tile for Epulu to take so Aydin can grow.

I'd chop that last forest by Cowtown North. Can always be re-mined if shields are needed.

Finally, Zimbabwe: Keeping so many units in a flip-prone town makes me nervous, and the resistance won't be gone soon enough to rush that barracks. I'd get the settlers out of Konya and founding new towns, and rush a barracks in one of them.

Renata
 
@ Sabre:

That. Was. Freaking. Awesome.

Need to get home to look at the map. Yay!

Renata
 
Why are the posts out of order? The one of mine above Tao's was posted last night, not today.

Renata
 
Cost of chivalry on a small map = 1066
100% Science = 238 bpt = -80gpt
That gives Chivalry in 5, but we can't start research until next turn.
So either we complete Engineering and get Chivalry in 12 turns, or we junk it next turn and get Chivalry in 6. I'm still veering on the side of completing Engineering and churning out some more Horses for upgrade in the meantime.

@Sabre: I notice there are 4 Vet Horses with the Catapult stack that could move in to attack Bapedi next turn - is that realisitic with your experience of the opposition that is likely to be there?

Until we need Knights, I'll probably mm Sogut and Izmit to do do 2 turn Horses (15 each) rather than having Sogut at 19 and Izmit at 14. With some tile shuffling at Uskadur can grow in 2, Settler in 2, but at the expense of South Beach, but South Beach will produce the Settler before it grows anyway. Both Jumgle Port and Bursa would benefit from WLTKD.

Library in Edrine will cost 64 gold
Barracks in Konya 96 gold. This would give a Barracks over there ready to start upgrading once we have Fuedalism and somewhere to heal those Horses in Zimbabwe.

I'll probabply play tomorrow (too tired now) so plenty of time for more comments all gratefully received.
 
Zimbabwe at pop 12 gave my horses a hard time even against reg Impis. Bapedi is also pop 12. Zimbabwe had 8 or 9 Impis while the rest of the towns had 2-3. I imagine Bapedi will have 3-4. I think I would wait and move the whole stack down. If I remember right there is an elite sword in the north forces and it would be nice to get it a victory in this battle. The Zimbabwe forces are pretty beat up too, so if you take a few turns to get Bapedi then you could immediately take the healthy survivors and combine them with Zimbabwe's to attack Ulundi. Good luck! :)
 
Renata said:
Why are the posts out of order? The one of mine above Tao's was posted last night, not today.
Errr, sure Renata, ....., we understand..., really, .... we'.... we're your friends, ...... :mischief:
 
Also, Zimbabwe has a 7% flip chance. I had the troops stay in there for a turn to convert some resistors (towns will never flip on your first turn of possession) to increase it's starvation abilities but I would move most of them out next turn and heal outside. It's not a big flip risk, but if it did flip losing a portion of our forces would slow us down. Once Bapedi and Ulundi are taken all those cities should be safe from flips. The other islands to the west are so far off as to make a flip a tiny chance. For example, Madras has a 0.2% or about 1 in 500 chances and that should drop even further as it starves.
 
Renata said:
Why are the posts out of order? The one of mine above Tao's was posted last night, not today.

Renata

It's a glitch in the Matrix - get to a phone!

Actually when I hit "last page" and saw that post, I kept backing up and trying again - cause darn it I know there were posts after that one!!! Then I actually read the posts above that one and realized what had happened.
 
Furiey said:
I'm still veering on the side of completing Engineering and churning out some more Horses for upgrade in the meantime.
I would never have thought the research would be this slow. Getting Engineering is not such a bad idea, otherwise we will have no advantage over the AI - at least we can cross rivers and as tao mentioned, plant some forests.

This game may be over in a shorter time than we think. Having a good solid army will just make everything quicker yet. So getting horses for upgrades is worth a short delay. Who knows, maybe the AI research will pick up.

And, we'd all like to see your name at the top of the Killboard. :D
 
It might really be a good idea to switch some horses to swords/axemen and hurry the barracks in Konya to upgrade swords. Attack 4 should help a lot against the impis.

Edit: Not good: Konya has no iron connection and thus can't upgrade to axemen.
 
I think that it is still a good idea to rush the rax in Konya for the reasons outlined by Furiey. The northern forces should be OK to march down and take the new Zulu capital and then Konya will be connected by Hlobane's harbour and we can then march on to relieve the culture pressure that we are under from Arabia.
 
I'm thinking that that we should be able to finish the Zulus (their mainland anyway) with what forces we have available. Our new builds would therefore be heading for Arabia.

The territory around Bapedi is stopping the troops getting back to Konya - the horses would end up stuck on a mountain and/or as an exposed stack or something somewhere. I'll move up one of the Settlers and plonk it under the spear. I don't suppose city location is so critical now (but typing this without Civ so I could be remembering wrong), so building next turn will allow us to get those horses back ASAP and at least use the barracks town to heal, but no iron connection - grrr - won't be able to upgrade until we take Bapedi then. That won't be for a few turns if I wait for the Swords, if I wait one more turn there will be the 3 Horses S ish of the City that could also go for it - maybe 7 Horses would be enough.
 
Nonetheless, I would switch the horse builds in our mainland to swords (axemen). We will be able to build quite a lot of horses till we learn chivalry.
 
Furiey said:
I'm thinking that that we should be able to finish the Zulus (their mainland anyway) with what forces we have available. Our new builds would therefore be heading for Arabia.

If that's the case, might we be able to start collecting units for the Arabia attack *now*? There's no particular reason we have to wait for the Zulus to be finished with, is there? By the end of your turns you would be able to land from Bursa with a nice stack of Axemen and a few pikes for defense. We can probably get along without catapults until we're attacking Persia's biggest cities, if even then (they'll have pikemen; Arabia won't), so you won't need to bring along many of those, maybe just a few to beef up defense on landing.

Note: if you do start building axemen, you'll need Sogut and GL at 20spt and Izmit at 14 to do it efficiently.

Organizing now to go after Arabia would make me feel a bit better about the delay in getting knights.

I also forgot to point out in my previous post (although I probably implied it) -- I think we're about at the point where we can afford to start stripping excess units from our home island wherever they're not needed for MPs. Those two swords down by Jungle Port could be moved to Aydin and upgraded, for instance -- nobody's tried to land there at all, and if the town does hit a bad roll and flip, it won't be exactly difficult to get it back.

We should probably keep a boat in the Sogut/New Calcutta area and another by Konya/Antalya in perpetuity for ease of troop and settler movement back and forth between the islands.

Renata
 
Renata said:
If that's the case, might we be able to start collecting units for the Arabia attack *now*? There's no particular reason we have to wait for the Zulus to be finished with, is there? By the end of your turns you would be able to land from Bursa with a nice stack of Axemen and a few pikes for defense. We can probably get along without catapults until we're attacking Persia's biggest cities, if even then (they'll have pikemen; Arabia won't), so you won't need to bring along many of those, maybe just a few to beef up defense on landing.
Renata
That's what I meant by our new builds would be heading for Arabia. The only reason to finish the Zulus first would be if we didn't have enough troops to do both and as long as Zimbabwe doesn't flip with those Horses there - and I'll move them out next turn so that doesn't happen, we should do so. I'll probably pinch some of the cats from AI Bait as nothing much seems to be happening there.
 
Ok, I wanted to do an assessment of Chivalry now versus Chivalry later. (Note: all of the following assumes no golden age.)

If now: We will have Chivalry in 6 turns. AIs are very unlikely to get there first and spare us any of that time. We should have about 20 horses after attrition and new builds. We should have about 600g in the bank, assuming we spend a bit for barracks in Zululand -- that'll upgrade about 8 horses right away. Upgrading the rest will take roughly an additional 10 turns; we'll also have up to ten additional knights built by then by hand. So 28 knights out and about within 16 turns. At that point, if it still hadn't shown up in the GL, we could still research Engineering in another 10 or so without running a deficit, getting it about 26 turns from now, or about halfway to our desired end of the game.

If we finish Engineering first, we have that in 7 turns. Chivalry will take another five. Within those 12 turns we will have to build a fair number of axemen if we want to keep our momentum going, so horse builds may suffer a bit. Let's say we get to 30 or so by turn 12 after attrition. By 7 turns from now we should have about 1700-1800 gold minus expenditures for rushes -- say, about 1500g. 400g will be spent in reseach, leaving 1100, which will be able to upgrade 13 or 14 knights. It'll take an additional dozen or more turns to upgrade the rest: by 16 turns from now, we'd have only 20-22 including new builds -- many fewer than in the Chivalry-now option. (This is a worst-case estimation; since there's a decent chance Chivalry will show up out the Great Library within the next 12 turns, I think.)

Is Engineering really worth 6-8 fewer knights over the next 16 turns? Or do you all think the extra Axemen we'll have will be fast enough to compensate in and of themselves?

Renata
 
Thinking about it:

What we really need is a Golden Age. For this we need a Great Leader to build Sun Tzu's. This is more likely with knights. I vote "go chivalry now".
 
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