Shadow Game 2 - First Time at Prince

[lymond]

@sampsa
Lymond is speaking of an other copper. The copper up by the river.

Yep, that is a problem I tend to have giving advice. I tend to think 2 or 3 steps ahead which is more confusing than helpful. At the time, my point was more about the spot OD had designated in that area.

Clam spot is clearly the best first city for the fact that it has some good tiles to work/share. I still think 1NW of cows is a potential city spot later. Settling at least one island city to share seafood may be better sooner than later, especially if OD goes sailing now with into of getting up GLH faster.

For @OldDude, I believe the lesson learned here is to think about what a new city will be working first thing - whether sharing tiles or its own resources. The sooner a city has food to work the better that city will be and the better your game will be.

edit: I think Gumbo's point is that you could probably do a tad bit more scouting first. The warrior to the NE likely better placed one step NE. Think about the tiles that are clearly lighted up(viewable) vs. those in the fog or darkened. Those are the tiles that need spawnbusting via the 5x5 tile extension from where a unit stands.

You are thinking along the right lines though, and honestly on the higher difficulties you will likely do less extensive scouting to spawnbust earlier.

Also, with copper online so fast I'd feel more than safe doing a bit of worker stealing from Justy and or Izzy.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Lymond As long as you do this for the SGOTM it's not an issue you thinking a few steps ahead here!

@OldDude As for barbs I think you get 1 free win on prince vs barbs. I think you needed to explore more here. If your warriors stick to forest/jungle they should be safe. For 2000bc you have not revealed much of the map here. Barbs on prince level won't enter your borders this early.

City 3 first looks good.

A site to include both bananas would be useful. Copper/2xbananas? That or stick to coastal cities. Without AH city 2 looks weak.

 

[krikav]

I had fortified the warrior to the north because a barb lion showed up. The other two are not fortified but I have them there for spawn busting. Is this wrong?

Yeah, other than the cap, I didn't get the best roll with this map. Thanks.

Not at all wrong to fortify and spawnbust properly.
I have developed a bad habit of being overly brave when scouting, painful to relearn.

 

[Fippy]

City thoughts, this yellow circled spot looks like your best potential city so far

Spoiler :

I can tell a bit about how i would think (probably on deity), this spot has so much potential later with double copper & loads of green river, that i would even consider settling there first. In fear of deity AIs stealing the spot, which can always happen cos they can have 3-4 cities until you get your first ~~

Early it will not grow fast, but working river copper makes a very useful city still.
Can build granary first, then maybe 1 farm and after that cottages..needs only 1 worker, and can also produce some Axes if needed.

Ofc on lower diffs you have more time, and city 3 marker looks okay, thou it's overall a weak 2nd city.
Why? Your cap does not want to share copper so early (leaves only 2 good tiles), and just clams for city 2.
I mean it's okay, but i would try coming up with something better when playing under more pressure than Prince.

Those are just some thoughts, not like you have obvious & outstanding spots available
But i believe copper #2 city has so much potential, i would accept it's slow growth early.

 

[Gumbolt]

Not at all wrong to fortify and spawnbust properly.
I have developed a bad habit of being overly brave when scouting, painful to relearn.

Yes his warriors are spaced out correctly to spawn bust. However on Prince the barb spawn rate is much lower. The date they enter borders is much later. A little land info would be more useful here.

If this was deity I would say great job spawnbusting.

Yes that yellow circle site looks good. You certainly don't want Spain grabbing that copper site any time soon.

 

[lymond]

Yep, yellow circle is absolutely a great spot. Nanners not even being a consideration for a long time(still good spot without them), the main benefit is the grassland copper in lieu of high food. The grass copper is so good simply due to the strong hammer tile and being 2F to boot (and riverside for a pair of boots). You can produce units and even workers and settlers pretty fast at size 2. (Probably a great HE city too eventually)

Ideally, Kyoto will not be whipped off of its three best tiles - copper/fish/clam. I'm inclined to grow to 5 on wb or warrior so that Kyoto can do 5>3 whips...including a LH later.

Although I think right now chopping out a new worker would be best. You have a good bit to do for 2 workers, but can probably stick to 2 for some time especially if you settle an island next.

 

[OldDude]

OK, based on all of the feedback (THANK YOU), I played 10 more turns and settled the site to the E first, and then the copper site to the N. I got the WB out and connected up to the clams. Putting some hammers into a Granary in my cap to grow to 5 (next turn), then I think I should switch to a worker or two so I can 2 pop those as I only have the one right now. I only have one more forest tile in my cap unless I steal from City 2 but I was thinking I should use those for chopping out the Granary there. Teching Masonry now for my push for GLH.

I sent my warriors out to scout some more and unfortunately I lost one to a barb warrior. I like the idea of worker stealing but it would be smart to have some axes for that, no? Have I missed anything?

EDIT: Next city site? There's 2 food sources to the east, settle 1SW from the Pigs, or is that too far away? Should I build a galley after worker is out to scout the island to the south? Lighthouse? Library? Basically I'm not sure what the next optimal steps are.

Spoiler 50 Turns :

 

[Arcanior]

I've been following the previous thread and this one, picking up on all the advice (I'm a Monarch player myself). I'm not at all on the level of guys like lymond or sampsa, but I've noticed two things about your T50 screenshot.

First, why is City 1 working the 2F grassland tile? The only reason I could think of doing that is trying to get a precise 29/60 on the granary for 2-pop whipping; I haven't opened your save, so can't see if that's the case or not.

Second, I think a library might not be the way to go here. I'd start getting a lighthouse out, so GLH can be started once Masonry comes in. Getting an instant 2 food per turn (3 potentially, if for some reason city 2 would not work the clam for a few turns) is nothing to sneeze at either. I'd probably build a galley in city 2 when the granary is done, and settle the island next, to take full advantage of GLH. Afterwards some naval scouting with the galley; if there's room for two island cities, you get even more bang for your buck from GLH with another +2 trade route.

Anyhow, that's my thoughts. I fully expect to be corrected by the actual strategists here on the forum!

 

[Gumbolt]

My thoughts. You have improved that mine instead of the 2f4H copper? Mistake?
New city probably should of started on a second worker. Especially with the clams.
I would be pushing for a 4th city now. Grabbing the river cow site further north would be good. Albeit you lack AH.

Really not sure about Great Lighthouse here as the coastal city spots are not great. If you do plan to go for it you want to plan a 2 pop whip of light house with 29H invested.

Running unimproved tiles is not a good thing.Hence why you often want your second city building a worker.

 

[sampsa]

• improving a good tile (copper) for 3rd city should have been a very high priority
• when still in expansion phase, chopping is pretty much always a bigger priority than mining. Compare instant +20 to +1 per turn, former gives you much more, sooner. Capital doesn't need that mine, it can whip since it has many high -tiles. Founding more cities asap is good, even more so the lower the difficulty level is (i.e. you should chop settlers, workers, maybe granaries)
• I'd get another settler out from capital and settle 1S of northern cow. One power tile, 3 forests to chop, many tiles available for cottages.
• I'd forget GLH for now, expanding to good sites beats building wonders, thus I would have gone AH instead of masonry

 

[krikav]

Regarding hills and mines...
I very rarely mine hills in the BCs nowadays.

Not 100% sure about the math here, been a while since I did some testcase, but from memory...
If you have a city with a granary that you 2pop-whip from pop4 to pop2, then you get 60.
After a whip, you have at minimum 13/24, since it requires 26 to grow to pop4 from pop3. Half of 26 is stored in granary.
So you need 11 to grow from pop2->pop3.
Half of 24/12 is then stored so you start at 12 once you want to grow from pop3->pop4, for which you need 26. So 14 missing.
So in total (worst case) you need 25 for 60.

This gives us a relative value of: 1 equals 2.4
A grassland farm with 3 yield (Cost 2 to work, so you profit 1)
A frassland mine with 13 yield also cost 2 to work, so net result is -1 +3.

If we use our 1 equals 2.4 we instead get:

Grassland farm yield: 2.4
Grassland mine yield: 0.6
In other words, grassland farm is FOUR times as productive as a grassland mine.

A plains hill mine? Thats a loss of 0.8 per turn.

Now.... all this calculations are abit theoretical, and abit unfair because...
If you build settlers/workers then mines are perfecly OK.
And happycap is not unlimited so you can't whip as quickly as cities regrow.
You don't always have something good to whip.

So some mines some time are ok, because you need to slow down the pop2->pop4 growth to aprox 10 turns. Working a mine or two some of the time while you regrow can be good.

The big problem with mines though, are the opportunity cost of mining them.
Workers are costly, and workerturns are very valuable.
Working a forested grassland hill, or forested plain does the work that a mine can do, almost as good, and you don't have to spend any workerturn for them.

 

[sampsa]

Now.... all this calculations are abit theoretical, and abit unfair because...
If you build settlers/workers then mines are perfecly OK.

Well, not really OK, since slow-building settlers/workers (1 transformed into 1) is losing to whipping by a huge margin (1->2.4).

You are correct that happy cap is really the only limiting factor. Pre-granary mines could be decent, but when for example chopping is available there isn't a good time to build mines. Anyway, the main use for mines is when -cap is an issue and you need to work something to cool down the whip anger or to build something that is unwhippable (wonders).

 

[Fippy]

Running unimproved tiles is not a good thing.Hence why you often want your second city building a worker.

Very cautious towards that statement, slow building workers in new cities strikes me as one of the biggest mistakes from "advanced" players aka not newbies ~~

Much better: sending your cap worker there, and building or chopping or whipping a new one in cities that can do so much quicker.

 

[krikav]

Well, not really OK, since slow-building settlers/workers (1 transformed into 1) is losing to whipping by a huge margin (1->2.4).

You are correct that happy cap is really the only limiting factor. Pre-granary mines could be decent, but when for example chopping is available there isn't a good time to build mines. Anyway, the main use for mines is when -cap is an issue and you need to work something to cool down the whip anger or to build something that is unwhippable (wonders).

Yes, the utility of mines are not 0.
You do get a small gain during those circumstances you need to either stop working food tiles to stop growth, or for the times when you are slowbuilding workers/settlers (perhaps due to unhappines issues or too much food)

As you point out, it's the opportunity cost for making those mines that have made them all but dissapear in my games.
For the cases when I need to avoid growh, well working coast or forested hills as they are do work as a stopgap measure.
If there is any chopping/prechoping that gets prio. And also, I much more often find myself just making grassland farms than I do mining.
In many cases roading also gets prio.

 

[Gumbolt]

Very cautious towards that statement, slow building workers in new cities strikes me as one of the biggest mistakes from "advanced" players aka not newbies ~~

Much better: sending your cap worker there, and building or chopping or whipping a new one in cities that can do so much quicker.

Yeah growing 3 turns to whip would make sense. Perhaps he would of been better building the copy city second. The clam city shows 12h/ and 12 food. Not sure when the clam workboat was netted.

 

[OldDude]

I've been following the previous thread and this one, picking up on all the advice (I'm a Monarch player myself). I'm not at all on the level of guys like lymond or sampsa, but I've noticed two things about your T50 screenshot.

First, why is City 1 working the 2F grassland tile? The only reason I could think of doing that is trying to get a precise 29/60 on the granary for 2-pop whipping; I haven't opened your save, so can't see if that's the case or not.

Second, I think a library might not be the way to go here. I'd start getting a lighthouse out, so GLH can be started once Masonry comes in. Getting an instant 2 food per turn (3 potentially, if for some reason city 2 would not work the clam for a few turns) is nothing to sneeze at either. I'd probably build a galley in city 2 when the granary is done, and settle the island next, to take full advantage of GLH. Afterwards some naval scouting with the galley; if there's room for two island cities, you get even more bang for your buck from GLH with another +2 trade route.

Anyhow, that's my thoughts. I fully expect to be corrected by the actual strategists here on the forum!

@Arcanior, thanks for your input. Yes that is one of the things I'm still trying to solidify in my game; making sure the best tiles are getting worked every turn. I've played this game for a long time, and not very well, and I'm still trying to break old habits. Thanks again.

 

[OldDude]

My thoughts. You have improved that mine instead of the 2f4H copper? Mistake?
New city probably should of started on a second worker. Especially with the clams.
I would be pushing for a 4th city now. Grabbing the river cow site further north would be good. Albeit you lack AH.

Really not sure about Great Lighthouse here as the coastal city spots are not great. If you do plan to go for it you want to plan a 2 pop whip of light house with 29H invested.

Running unimproved tiles is not a good thing.Hence why you often want your second city building a worker.

@Gumbolt, thank you. Yep, you are right. I should have sent that worker up to that copper right away. Regarding City 2 build, I guess I was thinking I wanted it to grow a little first but the point about it working unimproved tiles is valid. Thanks for your advice.

 

[OldDude]

• improving a good tile (copper) for 3rd city should have been a very high priority
• when still in expansion phase, chopping is pretty much always a bigger priority than mining. Compare instant +20 to +1 per turn, former gives you much more, sooner. Capital doesn't need that mine, it can whip since it has many high -tiles. Founding more cities asap is good, even more so the lower the difficulty level is (i.e. you should chop settlers, workers, maybe granaries)
• I'd get another settler out from capital and settle 1S of northern cow. One power tile, 3 forests to chop, many tiles available for cottages.
• I'd forget GLH for now, expanding to good sites beats building wonders, thus I would have gone AH instead of masonry

Thanks @sampsa. Great advice and comparison on mining vs. chopping. I think building mines is another one of my old habits. I always wanted as many hammers in my cities as food would allow.

 

[OldDude]

Regarding hills and mines...
I very rarely mine hills in the BCs nowadays.

Not 100% sure about the math here, been a while since I did some testcase, but from memory...
If you have a city with a granary that you 2pop-whip from pop4 to pop2, then you get 60.
After a whip, you have at minimum 13/24, since it requires 26 to grow to pop4 from pop3. Half of 26 is stored in granary.
So you need 11 to grow from pop2->pop3.
Half of 24/12 is then stored so you start at 12 once you want to grow from pop3->pop4, for which you need 26. So 14 missing.
So in total (worst case) you need 25 for 60.

This gives us a relative value of: 1 equals 2.4
A grassland farm with 3 yield (Cost 2 to work, so you profit 1)
A frassland mine with 13 yield also cost 2 to work, so net result is -1 +3.

If we use our 1 equals 2.4 we instead get:

Grassland farm yield: 2.4
Grassland mine yield: 0.6
In other words, grassland farm is FOUR times as productive as a grassland mine.

A plains hill mine? Thats a loss of 0.8 per turn.

Now.... all this calculations are abit theoretical, and abit unfair because...
If you build settlers/workers then mines are perfecly OK.
And happycap is not unlimited so you can't whip as quickly as cities regrow.
You don't always have something good to whip.

So some mines some time are ok, because you need to slow down the pop2->pop4 growth to aprox 10 turns. Working a mine or two some of the time while you regrow can be good.

The big problem with mines though, are the opportunity cost of mining them.
Workers are costly, and workerturns are very valuable.
Working a forested grassland hill, or forested plain does the work that a mine can do, almost as good, and you don't have to spend any workerturn for them.

@krikav, wow good stuff. When you do that math like that it makes it pretty clear. I think, like you mention, there comes a point when whipping is problematic too. Anyway, I need to break the habit of building too many mines.

Spoiler SGOTM :

Maybe I'll get on your team for the SGOTM. I could stand to learn a lot about this kind of micro.

 

[OldDude]

OK, I played 15 more turns. I tried to follow advice but I'm still not sure if GLH should be pushed for as there doesn't seem to be a consensus on that. I do want to scout those islands so a galley is being built in City 2. I sent a settler to that north cow site but Byzantine got there first. I marked a spot on the map that might be good? Two food sources (after border pop). I've realized this starting spot I got wasn't the best.

At any rate, teching Writing now, AH and Masonry are in. One worker improving the cows in the capital, one finishing road between capital and City 3 for trade route, the other just finished a cottage in City 2. I'm thinking a grassland farm next in that city. Sitting at turn 65 and I'll wait for more advice.

Spoiler 65 Turns :

Thanks!