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Shadow Game 2 - First Time at Prince

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by OldDude, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Lighthouse - If you intended GLh you wanted to stop at 29 hammers for max OF into GLH. I really think GLH is not right here. You have no forest left to chop into it so it would need a lot of OF here.

    Hmm lost the cow site. Did you scout to see when he settled this? That cow is already improved and roaded. 5-6+ turns ago?

    No point fog busting Spanish borders.

    Cow/horse site looks interesting but a long way off? The cow site has issues with jungle with no cows now. For me the best land here is that the AI already owns. Self teching IW is never a great idea.

    You will want OB with most Ai once you have writing.

    Tech wise going masonry and sailing if you did not intend to build GLH may have been a mistake. Guess you should search those islands anyway.
     
  2. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    @Gumbolt, could you explain what you mean when you say "stop at 29 hammers for max OF into GLH"? I know OF means overflow but stop what? Sorry, just don't understand what you mean.

    I decided to tech IW because of all of the jungle that I can't do anything with until I have IW. I don't have ALPH yet for trading techs. It seemed like the jungle was becoming an issue. Alternatives?

    Yeah, I've had a lot of indecision in this game and I think that's mostly because of the start I got. I'm seeing now how a coastal start can slow you down. I'm actually thinking about trashing this one and starting over.

    Thanks again!
     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Stop putting hammers into the lighthouse, so that you can 2-pop whip it.
    Tech alpha, trade for IW.
     
    lymond likes this.
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    60H build. If you whip when 29 hammers are invested you get 29OF when you whip from size 4. Plus your usual production from tiles worked that turn.
    So if you had 15 H invested you would get 15H OF from the whip plus your usual production from tiles worked that turn
    So if you whip with 1 hammer invested in a 60H build you would get 1 overflow plus hammers from land tiles.

    One of the issues on lower levels is the Ai are much slower on techs. As Sampsa suggests teching IW is usually a bad move. Better to tech alphabet so you can at least trade for techs.

    The big question here is where is your economy going to come from here? Your capital is not ideal for a bureau cottage capital. So it's maybe better for hammers to convert to wealth. Or to help with great people?

    That cow city would of been ideal for cottages. You could still settle 2S of the cows but it would take forever to grow this city. You would need to farm grassland river tiles. Plus IW to chop those jungle.

    I might try to grab the Cow/horse here and try an HA rush on a neighbour. Your tech choices so far are not ideal for this.

    Your capital will need a city defender at size 4 for happiness.

    What is your plan here? There is no point playing on without a plan.

    Oh I played 1 turn on from your 2000bc save. It was clear that the AI had already grabbed the cow site. You really need to look at the AI city count. If it goes up from 1 to 2 you have to ask where is that new city? Your warrior needed to scout out that site before you even sent a settler there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  5. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Got it. Thanks @sampsa.
     
  6. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    On the economy - I really don't know. The cap isn't good for it and I need IW to be able to clear out all of that jungle.

    On the plan - I don't really have one. As mentioned, I've been full of indecision on this game and I think it has set me back along with the coastal start. I feel like I'm already getting squeezed. I probably didn't expand as fast as I should have by this point.

    So, I think I'm going to trash this one and start a new game. Thanks to all for your help on this one and I hope I didn't waste anybody's time!
     
  7. Oblivionyx

    Oblivionyx Chieftain

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    I think I'll try playing with your last save. I don't know why but I've always had a higher chance of winning with Japan. :D
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I wouldn't give up. If boxxed in you merely start planning early wars.

    I think if you had explored more early on you could of grabbed the cow and copper site.

    This game is still very winnable and you have a great uu. Perhaps restarting would be better than new map. Learn from your mistakes. You are way ahead of the ai here.
     
  9. Zavior

    Zavior Trying to (b)eat deity

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    Do note that the AI techs very slow on prince, so what in a 'normal' game would be good idea, might not work here.
     
  10. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @OldDude hey, young man, stick with it. Not all bad. Regardless, you still learned some things this game. Coastal starts can be a bit more challenging and slower, but it is something you still need to learn, especially for other types of maps.

    I think you are still bitten by some of your old habits. Going back to our first discussions, you really need to eliminate them and try to focus on the advice given. Continually asking yourself does this move or that make sense based on what I have learned.

    For instance, the thought to go IW just because you see a few jungle tiles around. The key important thing here is that you work around the jungle for the time being - the early game. IW is an expensive early tech that does not do much for you. Something like Alpha allows you to trade for IW later, while being a tech that leads to other good things and trades. Much more bang for you buck. On higher levels you just cannot get away with bad tech decisions.

    So back to the jungle. What you do here is work with what you have. For example, the copper city that has jungle bananas. Don't worry about the nanners for now. You are relying on the strong copper tile and maybe a couple of grass farms early for some growth. It's all relative to the timing of the game. Early on, that copper tile is a strong yield that suffices for production. Yeah, it is not food as we so harp on, and you likely will not whip much here, but you will leverage that good tile early. (One day copper city will be able to grow quite large - likely a good HE candidate city if applicable - but it is what it is right now and more than productive)

    Elsewhere, you have a good food cap, and a couple of decent cities.

    I think, one, that the focus on GLH was probably confusing. That is my fault. GLH is a very powerful wonder on certain maps, but generally not something one considers for Pangaea. The difference here is that you actually have some islands nearby to settle. The idea being that you use the islands for the extra commerce, which is boosted more by GLH. Any city on a separate land mass, including an island, increases trade route commerce substantially.

    But still, talking about GLH probably diverted you quite a bit from the important basic things you need to learn. On high levels though, with this start and island, GLH might be a power play.

    Also, I think losing the cow spot was a bit disappointing for you, and again, if I did not press GLH you may have easily gotten it.

    As for economy, your's is more than fine right now. Still something for you to learn and be cognizant of moving forward. And technically you had spots other than Kyoto, ofc, for commerce cities later.

    Lastly, I want to emphasize the whip mechanics again. I had linked a primer in one of your earlier shadow games, and I will link it again here. I encourage you to read through the links for a better understanding of whip mechanics and overflow.

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673

    What I recommend is reading through it and starting a separate practice game to practice the concepts when you have time. Just a game for practice.

    Anyway, you can restart this game, or fire up another one...but keep on learning. This will all sink in eventually. We've all been where you are now. You are making progress - just need to iron out some of the bad habits.
     
  11. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You have been talked out of GLH for no reason imo..
    sure it's not crucial here, but overall (as Lymo mentioned) it's the best potential wonder in Civ4.

    On Prince you can easily afford training, and GLH is also awesome for learning whip overflow (LH into wonder), preserving chops for important hammer needs, full trade routes understanding, and so on..

    + you can get some fun out of doing something different than settling spots.
    I am quiet disappointed if peoples suggest only normal play and settling, some islands are available on this map with food sharing potential as well (pangaea yup, but coastal),
    and it's also disappointing if you lose fun early cos we are not providing enuf.
     
  12. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Hey @lymond, thanks for the post. Sorry it took so long to respond but I got busy. Anyway, yeah you're right; the old bad habits are still there but I think I'm making progress and starting to wean myself away from them. Regarding this particular game, I think I got a bad start and really wasn't sure how to proceed optimally. I'm not giving up trying to learn more but I think I'm going to start a new one.

    I will go and read more on the whip mechanics so thanks for the link. Also, I may start a new shadow game thread but I don't want to wear out my welcome either.

    Cheers, and ...
    Spoiler Football :
    Sorry about your Falcons. I didn't see the game but I sure didn't think it would go that way.
     
  13. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Not at all @Fippy, I wouldn't put any blame on any of you donating your time trying to help me and others here. I think it's great that there is a place people can go to learn and that there are people who go out of their way to help. Thanks.
     
  14. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Thanks @Gumbolt. I'm still deciding on whether I just restart this one or start a new map. At any rate, I appreciate your help.
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    This game is more than winnable on Prince. You are focusing too much on peaceful expansion. Don't be afriad to do early rushes. You start next to copper. Your 2nd city will be 600-800 years before the Ai 2nd city. Some even later. Grab the important sites and settle by your capital later. Boxxing in Ai can be a good strategy.

    GLH is a good wonder but I would always play the map.

    Practise whipping and overflow on a test game with 2-3 cities. Then think about how OF of hammers can impact wonders. Especially when you have stone or marble.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ha..never worry about it. All this stuff s the purpose of this forum.

    Regardless of the advice given, and while all I've seen is pretty good, it can sometimes be conflicting, I think the main thing for you now is still learning basic stuff. Getting a feel for making good decisions about worker moves, builds, techs, settling, etc.. There are still some issues there that you will feel negatively as you move up levels. The goal right now does not need to be about winning or even playing all that far into the game, but rather just practicing these early game maneuvers. Early War and Wonders can often be a distraction to the initial learning process, although sometimes it is just the best thing to do...like killing Willie last game. GLH is more of a higher level tactic on this particular map, but not really helping you learn otherwise. Although as My said earlier, at some point you do want to learn how to get a wonder like GLH up fast in certain situations.


    Spoiler I should been born in another city..ugh :
    Thanks...that was extremely disappointing game. Falcons had a really good chance of putting this season on the right path. Really enjoyed the Rams game. They are fun to watch. Ha..and I needed something good to watch. Ofc, I've been a Gurley fan for years
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  17. OldDude

    OldDude Chieftain

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    Spoiler Rams - Gurley :
    I'm loving the Rams season so far although some of these games are giving me heart failure! Big, big game on Monday against the Chiefs. Unfortunately, and being realistic, I don't think our defense can stop them so I think this is a loss. Of course I hope I'm wrong. Yeah, Gurley is pretty special. I love to watch him play. Smooth runner, great receiver out of the backfield, and he's not a showboat.
     

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