[BTS] Shadow game for 1st prince win

[Hot_Dawg]

Hello everyone, for those that don't remember I made a thread a few months back hoping to get my 1st prince win. I learned a lot about early starts and avoiding bad habits, as well as the game's mechanics. Unfortunately I stopped playing the game since then, but now that I have enough time again I'm hoping to finally get my first win and finish a full game.

I went back and read the first few pages of the old thread, gonna finish the rest soon. I also played a few games to practice what I've learned so far. By turn 100-120 I tend to get lost, so I'm hoping this game goes well enough that I can work on strategy pass turn 80 or so.

I started a new game and rolled sitting bull, pangaea with normal settings. I did low sea level so I could have more land to work with. I figure with more land, I'll build a better understanding of where and where not to settle new cities. But if that's not a good idea I'll start a new game with medium or high sea level.

In this case, assuming this is a solid spot for a capital, would I settle 1S on the elephant? For research, I'm thinking AH->Hunting>BW. As for the warrior, I'm thinking 1E and have him circle back east so I can see what's around the pigs. What do you guys think?

For the sake of moving things along I'll try to play at least 15-20 turns unless I get really stuck. But if I make major mistakes I'll replay the turns. Two things I still have a hard time with are whips and chops, so bear with me if I'm not doing those correctly.

Final note if you guys think this isn't a good spot I'll regenerate, or if this map sucks I'll start a new game.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Lowering sea level on a standard-size Pangaea map is not of major consequence. I see no issue with it.

Just quick analysis of screenshot indicates that the warrior move does not have much bearing at all on the settling decision. Clearly forest 2N and I see no reason for moving in that direction to settle. I'd probably just start the Warrior on his way West a bit and then circle around the cap scouting land.

Settling on ivory seems pretty obvious and I'd go with it. PH 1SE is another option, but I see no reason to move there and lose the river bonus for what amounts to the same bonus.

AH first is obvious unless something else appears, but you already have AG so nothing would really change that opening. I'm skeptical of early Hunting unless you started with Hunting first for the small bonus to AH, but going Hunting immediately after AH is really not advisable. The thinking is probably for the extra happy but that is not important so early. AH>BW is what I'd go with for now. Hunting can always be teched sometime later pretty fast. But you are going to want BW as soon as possible here. Even if another pasture resource or two appears you may be dealing with not much for the worker to do until BW is in though you can farm an FP if needed while waiting.

Once BW is in start chopping and preparing a settler whip (or just chop the first settler and whip later..depends on timings of actions and city growth)

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Ya I meant to say 1W instead of 1E, sorry about that. Anyway, I took your advice and skipped hunting and went for AH->BW instead. You're right, I figured I should have access to that resource early.

Here's the map so far. Sorry if it's hard to see, I'm still trying to get it right. I marked where I think a few cities would potentially be, in no particular order. I do have 2 gold in the SW, I'm sending a warrior to scout the northern one and the other the southern. I saw it early but I wasn't sure if I should've sent my warrior down there instead of scouting around the pig. What would be the advisable thing to do in that situation? Scout around the gold immediately or just keep course and scout around the pig?

As for tech, I'm thinking BW->Wheel->Pottery->Writing. After settler is done I was thinking of chopping 2 workers. After that though, should I grow to 5 and whip a settler or do I chop the settler? Or is it both?

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Looks like you are about to head toward the gold anyway. From what I see you have two golds and two FPs right there, so that is enough imo to warrant settling 3 or 4 W of cap. I think 4W to get a gold online early.

Thought you might scout a bit W first from that location

Not sure on size 2 settler here. Two strong food resources sets up a nice 4>2 whip at BW. This city will grow pretty fast for start settler at size 4 before BW finishes. Conversely the strong food resources makes for a reasonable settler production at size 2.

Horse city looks fine taking the pigs for that city. Likewise you could settle 2E1N of hill pigs for a decent cottage city. But you have other options in that area like a pigs share with fish city.
Fish city I like better 1S of pigs since you have a strong food resource already there...more land tiles and a tad closer to cap.

I'd settle gold first here.

TW>POT>Writing sounds solid.

Definitely some strong spots all around.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I'm on turn 38. Here's a screenshot.

Spoiler :

I decided to go for the horses first, because after scouting the gold there's no food to work with there. I'm not sure if I understood your advice, but basically what I did was grow to size 4, chop the settler, switch to slavery on settler move, then 2 pop whip the 3rd settler? It was also 1 turn into building the settler to avoid the penalty you mentioned in the old thread.

How should I proceed from here? Do I go fish city or go for the gold, and if gold on which tile? I marked the tile in between both gold but would that be a bad move? I'm assuming that city will barely grow, so am I better off settling on top of the north gold, then researching myst and building a monument for border pop, or do I build a library there? You mentioned sharing the pigs with the fish city, so I marked where I think that would go. Is that where you were thinking or was it another tile?

Besides all of that any general thoughts? As a side note I have 4 workers in my capital's queue, and so far I have Isabella to the west(founded Buddism) and Zara to the south

 

[lymond]

I decided to go for the horses first, because after scouting the gold there's no food to work with there.

Well, 2 FPs for gold city is not too bad. Point with early gold is getting that boost early. Gold does not always present itself close by in many games, but when it does I highly consider taking advantage of it. Early on a farmed FP + Gold at size 2 provides a very nice early commerce boost for teching. In some cases I might even just work the gold for quite some time early. Yeah, the a gold city early is not super productive at all, but that is not really the point.

Gold city I'd probably place 4 due W of Cahokia. 2 FPs and can work some cottages for Cahokie, so helper city two.

I'm not sure if I understood your advice, but basically what I did was grow to size 4, chop the settler, switch to slavery on settler move, then 2 pop whip the 3rd settler? It was also 1 turn into building the settler to avoid the penalty you mentioned in the old thread.

Well, I basically was having competing thoughts there based on what you were doing and what I would do. I did not necessarily mean change what you were doing, but with that good food I tend to grow to 4 to whip. In your case, it seems you stopped the settler, then grew to 4 and chopped. If you are going to do that you might as well switch to slaver at BW and whip that settler...likely combined with some chopping for a fast 2nd worker.

Point is I'm not adverse to early switch to slavery at BW if whipping the first settler is a good option.

That's not to say that size 2 or 3 slow build settler is bad here.

How should I proceed from here? Do I go fish city or go for the gold, and if gold on which tile?

I'd probably go for the gold write now. Close city that adds some value. I think the AIs are to the W and SW somewhere. Gold city 4W

I build a library there?

Border pop there is not of urgency. Probably library or monument later. It has enough to work right now (gold city that is)

You mentioned sharing the pigs with the fish city, so I marked where I think that would go. Is that where you were thinking or was it another tile?

Yep, both marks to the East are exactly what I had in mind...based on how you settled in your game so far.

Besides all of that any general thoughts? As a side note I have 4 workers in my capital's queue, and so far I have Isabella to the west(founded Buddism) and Zara to the south

4 workers in your cap's queue..I don't even know what to make of that... I assume you have two worker already ..no? if not..you should

Warrior standing in PP is pointless right now...should be somewhere out W near gold spawnbusting. A guy near fish/pigs would be a good idea too. (you have a settler ready with nothing to escort it or alternatively the area spawnbusted for safe passage. Spawnbusting to precedence of extended scouting early.)

Ha..I'd be harassing Izzy like crazy stealing all her workers.

 

[Pangaea]

A dotmap suggestion. Slightly different.

Spoiler :

Think the gold city should be next, but one north of where you put your marker. That means you can farm the floodplains, so the city will have half-decent food. If you put it between the golds, the city will never grow really, as there are lots of plains nearby and you need a border pop to get the FP. Important to get a city near gold before Isabella gets over there. Maybe you have tons of time on Prince, but still nice to prioritise that location. Would be fun to know if there is food by the copper, but most likely Isabella will grab that anyway. You already have horses for war later. But this is such a strong map that it makes more sense to REX I think. You can always kill her later with elephants + catapults for example.

After this you can go in different ways, and this is just one way to go about it ofc. If you want to cottage up the capital heavily, including on those non-riverside grasslands, it makes great sense to have cities around the capital that can help grow the cottages. Maintenance is a small issues anyway on Prince, so think I'd actually go for the PH fish city next, or alternatively the city south of the capital (the capital should retain one of the pigs, at least once you cottage both the floodplains, as you should). With a lighthouse the city will have two lakes that both give 3. That's not too bad, and the grassland 2W of the city can be farmed as well. 1N should probably be a capital cottage that the city can help to grow. If I speak much about cottages, it's because it's a good exercise to get into the habit of shaping your capital to take best advantage of the strong boost that Bureaucracy gives. Which means a capital with lots of cottages, especially on riverside green/FP tiles.

You'll notice I have split up the heavily floodplained area to the east of you capital. That is because one city with say 10-12 FPs will quickly get into health problems. You don't really want that. And it makes sense to spread the love around anyway. The sheep city is definitely an early marker here and will probably go elsewhere, but more scouting in that area is needed first. Backfill material in any case.

Maybe Zara settled a city in that jungle area and will improve it for you. Not a place you want to go early, especially here with so many great locations around.

Of course you can also opt to put the fish-pig city 1W and use both food sources for that city. I preferred to split it up here. Enables the PH city further west to use the pig (a little shame it's non-riverside, but not a big deal). Can become a really strong city with both lots of cottages FPs and hills for hammers.

Techs and other
Pottery-Writing next looks good. Then maybe Math next as you likely won't get much love out of Alpha anyway. AIs are too slow on Prince. Fine to heal up the warrior in horse city currently, but after that he should move out and fog bust. No need for military police yet. Actually, you really should have had a warrior by the gold fogbusting and protecting the soon-to-be-there settler.

Put Spy points on Zara. You are already halfway to tech view with him, and it's better to focus spy points on one AI. Much more beneficial to have research view on a strong techer instead of demographics view on several AIs.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I'm on turn 50. Again, I'm playing a bunch of turns purposely, so if I poop the bed too badly I'll go back and replay the turns. I'll play as many times as needed to get it right.

Here's where I am

Spoiler :

I'm guessing Isabella was going for that gold because she settled that city a few turns after I got there. Luckily the settler made it by himself, but in the future I'll try to avoid having him go without an escort. Other than that I whipped a granary in PP and chopped a worker in my cap.

Am I expanding too slowly here? This is what I meant earlier by struggling with when to chop/whip and for which units, so if I'm doing it wrong let me know.

Pangaea I was playing as you made this post, but thanks for the helpful advice. I'm gonna try to follow your suggestions the best I can. You mention warring with Isabella, at what point would I prepare for that? I'm assuming after math I would go for construction, or is it still too early? War is another aspect of the game I struggle with. I seem to either take too long to finish one or I have to cease fire because I lost too many units on the attack. I do know siege units are important but I never know the ratio of attack to siege I'm suppose to have, and how to get both out quickly.

 

[Pangaea]

You mention warring with Isabella, at what point would I prepare for that? I'm assuming after math I would go for construction, or is it still too early?

On this map, I think it makes more sense to REX (expand by building cities) than to go to war. You have so much good land you can claim all around the capital. Isabella will build some cities too and grow them, and then you can take them from her later when she has developed them more. If you were struggling for room to expand into, it would make more sense to go to war early. You could probably expand to 10 cities here without problems peacefully, or even more depending on how much (and how good) land is available to the north and further east. Maybe there is even something SE - you never know.

Isabella has also founded a religion, so if you haven't already, open borders with her (and the other AIs). Pretty soon she will send missionaries to you, as she is a religious nutcase and will heavily prioritise it (plus Oracle). Maybe you'll even decide it's better to not kill her, and be on good relations with her, trade some techs, and kill some other AIs on the map instead. Too early to tell right now I think. If I played this map, I'd probably just REX instead of going to war early. She'll probably shrine that religion for you at some point too, so a shame to miss out on that if you want to wage war on her later.

Good thing you beat her to the gold. It's a good location. Gets you another happy resource, and a strong research tile too ofc. When the warrior is done there, you can probably start on a granary. That city will need it if you want to grow it beyond size 2-3.

I'm not necessarily saying this is a mistake, but it would have been nice if the capital was size 6 now. Could have 3-popped a library and in the near future gotten out a fast Great Scientist for an Academy. That will probably be good play here, if you end up with cottaging up the capital. In any case, once that worker is out, I think it's time to grow the capital a bit. It can grow on the library for example.

Then you have the choices of laying down some cottages in the capital, or chopping something. People play differently here, so it's a playstyle thing I suppose. Think I'd like a cottage or two on the capital FPs, but maybe it's too early. I've not looked at the save this time so kinda hard to tell what is "best". Not a big fan of a size 2 settler in Poverty point, tho. If that city has the pig tile, it can grow to size 4 pretty quickly and then you can 2-pop it. Maybe then settle the fish location, either on the PH or 1W. Have a worker there ready to improve the pig, while the city slow-builds a workboat (depending a bit on where you settle it).

 

[lymond]

@Hot_Dawg I encourage you to participate in the new Cookbook game here as well. The Cookbook style is an old format of friendly competition - for learning - on higher levels. It's recently been revived. The host - or in this case hostess - provides a map. Players play a specified turnset (set number of turns), then players discuss the results and vote on a save to play the next turnset from. It's not really about competition at all but the process of the discusion/vote fosters learning new things, especially about playing higher difficulties.

Anyway, this game is okay so far. 3 cities not bad. I'd have liked to have seen another worker out already is my one comment, though one is soon to pop. I'd also reinforce Pangaea's comment on growth here. PP is fine at size two with that settler. It has two strong tiles and a worker on chop duty. But I'd like to see Cahokia growing more and leveraging the whip, especially a library. I'd consider a Maths bulb here with the first GS.

Contrary to Pangaea, I would tech Alpha and bulb Maths, then Currency. (I play tested and built Oracle here after taking Madrid with Dogs...very risky catching her before she gets Archery..ha. Izzy is one of the major Oracle threats on any level) I oracled Civil Service.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I'm on turn 62. Screenshot here.

Spoiler :

I couldn't whip the library in my capital because I still needed a granary, so I chopped that and then whipped the library. Whipped the settler at PP for 2 pop after growing. Is the general idea to build the population to size 4-6 and whip settlers and other units? At what point am I on the verge of over whipping? I'm also guessing it doesn't matter if I go over the happy cap since I'm gonna whip the unhappy citizens anyway?

For cities I was thinking the FP next to the pigfish city, the sheep, and then the PH to the south after that. I'm sending a warrior to scout the area south of gem. Or should I maybe try to take land away from Isabella instead?

This turn I finished math. What should I do next from here? I was thinking currency but I'm not really sure. As a side note I forgot to add the spy point to zara, but I did it this turn. Besides that what do you think so far? Another thing, do I sign open borders with Zulu and the other two civs I haven't met yet?

 

[Hot_Dawg]

@Hot_Dawg I encourage you to participate in the new Cookbook game here as well. The Cookbook style is an old format of friendly competition - for learning - on higher levels. It's recently been revived. The host - or in this case hostess - provides a map. Players play a specified turnset (set number of turns), then players discuss the results and vote on a save to play the next turnset from. It's not really about competition at all but the process of the discusion/vote fosters learning new things, especially about playing higher difficulties.

Anyway, this game is okay so far. 3 cities not bad. I'd have liked to have seen another worker out already is my one comment, though one is soon to pop. I'd also reinforce Pangaea's comment on growth here. PP is fine at size two with that settler. It has two strong tiles and a worker on chop duty. But I'd like to see Cahokia growing more and leveraging the whip, especially a library. I'd consider a Maths bulb here with the first GS.

Contrary to Pangaea, I would tech Alpha and bulb Maths, then Currency. (I play tested and built Oracle here after taking Madrid with Dogs...very risky catching her before she gets Archery..ha. Izzy is one of the major Oracle threats on any level) I oracled Civil Service.

Thanks lymond, I'll check it out. If it'll help me learn I guess it wouldn't hurt to try it.

As far as whip/chop, does it depend on how many strong tiles are in that city? Is it a judgement call or more playstyle? I'm also guessing I should've had a GS out by now?

One other thing you mentioned that I forgot to ask, is about worker steal. Does worker steal from Isabella work because of how close she is or does it have to do with her traits as a leader? Is the whole point of taking Madrid this early to cripple her the rest of the game, or just to get oracle before she does?

 

[lymond]

Thanks lymond, I'll check it out. If it'll help me learn I guess it wouldn't hurt to try it.

Yep. Really good way to learn. I really upped may game tremendously playing the cookbook run by an old member named Kossin (who was an awesome player) around 10 or 11 years ago. It's the process of it that matters, not the result.

As far as whip/chop, does it depend on how many strong tiles are in that city? Is it a judgement call or more playstyle?

Well, a guess it's a bit of both, but I want to make clear that learning to whip is important. And really more of when and why. Strong food cities one would look to take advantage of the whip. You can call it "playstyle", but the bottom line is that advanced gameply in Civ IV deals with whipping. All the elite players use it extensively.

Sometimes it's difficult to discuss this concept in a vacuum. You almost need to watch someone play to get a feel for the nuances to city growth and whipping. As we who are helping see the game every 20t or so, so a lot can be missed.

I'm also guessing I should've had a GS out by now?

Potentially with a PHilo leader and a good food cap, a GS by this date is certainly in reason.

One other thing you mentioned that I forgot to ask, is about worker steal. Does worker steal from Isabella work because of how close she is or does it have to do with her traits as a leader? Is the whole point of taking Madrid this early to cripple her the rest of the game, or just to get oracle before she does?

Expansive leaders get worker out faster yup, so you might catch one rather quick..(you did not scout that way early..I did...that is just an observation not a critique). She's close and builds lotsa workers.

I killed Izzy. She did get a settler out but I choked it while I sent a coupla of Dogs. Very risky cause one archer throws a wrench into that idea. I tend to be very aggressive early. If an AI is reasonably close I'm gonna steal workers. Oracle had nothing to do with it. That comment was more of an observation, but the result is that I was more inclined to go for the CS sling. (ha..keep in mind that playing Prince for me is like being in a candystore.)

I guess take that stuff more as stuff for perspective. Things one can consider doing in the right situation. However, it belies the general advice both Pangaea and myself emphasize right now about just focusing on expansion and normal early gameplay. As Pangaea said, you can do your thing and let Izzy expand a bit and spread her religion, then kill her later with Phantapults, which have a pretty long shelf-life on this level.

 

[lymond]

Note that the road 1W of Cahokia was unnecessary.

How may workers do you have right now?

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Thanks lymond, I'm trying the best I can to understand how and when to whip. And I'll definitely keep everything you said in mind. As long as I'm making progress, I don't mind how long it takes to get it down solid.

I only played 3 turns(on T65 now) because I have a question about what to do when another civ takes over your tile. Here's my screenshot.

Spoiler :

My farm has been taken, and I've seen this in other games I've played, so I'm wondering what to do or if there's any options here? I know it flips because of culture, but does it mean anything long term?

As for the road 1W of Cahokia, after looking at it I'm guessing it's because the 2 tiles W of Cahokia are connected to the same river?

To answer your question, right now I have 4 workers and another on the way in PP after this turn. Should I just chop all my workers in this situation and grow to size 4-6 and whip the settlers?

 

[lymond]

Howz this for a solution to your culture problem .. (see attached save)

Spoiler :

I let a barb warrior take Seville as I wanted my two chariots in place to take Madrid which only showed a single warrior in the city. I can take back Seville next turn.

You had a couple of chariots ready and I whipped the one in Mound the next turn (Mound took one of the 2F1H tiles so as not to starve on your last save.

I sent the 3 chariots to the grass hill 1N of Mound for immediate attack. Lost 1 chariot but the other 2 survived with little to no damage. Next turn peaked at Seville. Honestly my initial goal was just taking Barc and maybe harrassing her for a bit but she had only warriors and Seville only had one, so I took it next turn. A barb warrior wallked next to Seville following turn but she sent out one of the Madrid warriors to take back Barc likely, so I sacrificed Seville to put the 2 chariots in range of Madrid. Got luck really on chariot damage as those two got little to no damage from previous battles.

 

[lymond]

After 3rd or 4th city, your cap really needs to think about growing and running scientists...really shoulda already happened by now. Other cities can now take the brunt of production. Does not mean you won't build some stuff in Madrid, but you will not whip it for some time as it focus more on research. These are things you need to start thinking about in your games. You get those first couple of cities and get them production fast with granaries and then they can take the brunt of the whipping and production for future cities...or attacks.

That in part answers a bit of when and how to whip. Think of it this way:

1) Cap usually produces your first 2 or 3 cities via chops whips..and workers
2) New cities get granaries and grow
3) Cap build library (I often 3 pop a lib at size 6 ) and starts to focus on research ..cottages/running first 2 scientists.
4) New cities can start to take brunt of production needs..whipping and chopping

Basic rule on whipping is you don't whip off strong tiles. Strong tiles being mainly food specials (think bigs) or high production specials like say a copper or horse. With city overlap though, you can share then special tiles as well, which gives some leeway on whipping, but you always want those specials worked.

I'm not adverse to whipping off cottages, but again with helper cities nearby you often have no issues keeping those cottages worked by one city or another. Cottaged FPs though in cap I always want worked though by cap or helper city once cottaged.

Contrary to Pangaea, on this level I'd go Alpha before Currency. Two reasons. Alpha + Maths both give bonus to Currency. Once Currency is in you can immediately start looking to trade old techs for gold. On this level, there will be a lot of AIs that likely don't have some of the little tech yet. They don't have much gold usually, but anything helps. AND you can usually pick up IW at some point for free.

 

[lymond]

@Hot_Dawg
Okay..I was playing a few turns from you last save..after killing Izzy and came across an interesting whip example I'd like to show you.

Chaco finished it's granary, so I started a library there. I've been monitoring it as the city grows and the lib builds its production. Here you see Chaco is about to grow to size 6:

Spoiler Chaco wants a fast wb :

I've attached the save from that turn.

Notice that I've hovered over the production bar. You see the Library is a 27/90 hammers of production. Now up to 29h of production a library can be 3 pop whipped. At 30h it becomes a two pop whip. Cause a whipped citizen = 30H and 90-60 (2 citizens) = 30. At 29h you max OF from the whip. I've adjusted city tiles so that Chaco only produces 2 base hammers this turn as it grows. I'll show you the following turn how that looks:

Spoiler chaco at 6 :

Notice here that the production bar says 29/90 hammers. I will now whip the library and show you how the looks afterwards (same turn):

Spoiler whip like you mean it :

Now see the production bar reads 119/90! Wait 119H is way more than we need for a Library! What is going on here!!!

Well, we had 29H into a 90h Library. We whip 3 citizens at 30H each or 90H. 29+90=119H.

119-90 = 29H. So what is the deal with this 29H? It is Overflow! Those 29H will appear next turn in the city for your next build. Like this:
(oh..and note that Chaco is already growing back..praise the granary!)

Spoiler anyone want a 1 turn workboat? :

Now see the hover - just to the right of the production bar. "Overflow from previous build" = 30H. (29H + 1base hammer that last turn in city)

Now that wb is 1 turn.

This is just an exercise, but it shows you how you can max OF. Now you don't always have to max OF mind you. Sometimes its just the speed that counts like getting out those first settlers, but I wanted you to see this at work.

(save attached from turn 1 of example)

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Howz this for a solution to your culture problem .. (see attached save)

Spoiler :

I let a barb warrior take Seville as I wanted my two chariots in place to take Madrid which only showed a single warrior in the city. I can take back Seville next turn.

You had a couple of chariots ready and I whipped the one in Mound the next turn (Mound took one of the 2F1H tiles so as not to starve on your last save.

I sent the 3 chariots to the grass hill 1N of Mound for immediate attack. Lost 1 chariot but the other 2 survived with little to no damage. Next turn peaked at Seville. Honestly my initial goal was just taking Barc and maybe harrassing her for a bit but she had only warriors and Seville only had one, so I took it next turn. A barb warrior wallked next to Seville following turn but she sent out one of the Madrid warriors to take back Barc likely, so I sacrificed Seville to put the 2 chariots in range of Madrid. Got luck really on chariot damage as those two got little to no damage from previous battles.

This is really interesting, I didn't realize chariots were this powerful early game. But is this because she had warriors instead of archers in her cities? What surprised me is how you took 3 cities in 8 turns. That's the kind of efficiency I'm looking to pick up when I do war in this game.

For fun I played my save to see if I could recreate what you did here. It took me 9 turns but it didn't go as smoothly. I lost a worker, a warrior and chariot compared to your one chariot, although I did get a great general. I'll post the save if you're interested.

After 3rd or 4th city, your cap really needs to think about growing and running scientists...really shoulda already happened by now. Other cities can now take the brunt of production. Does not mean you won't build some stuff in Madrid, but you will not whip it for some time as it focus more on research. These are things you need to start thinking about in your games. You get those first couple of cities and get them production fast with granaries and then they can take the brunt of the whipping and production for future cities...or attacks.

That in part answers a bit of when and how to whip. Think of it this way:

1) Cap usually produces your first 2 or 3 cities via chops whips..and workers
2) New cities get granaries and grow
3) Cap build library (I often 3 pop a lib at size 6 ) and starts to focus on research ..cottages/running first 2 scientists.
4) New cities can start to take brunt of production needs..whipping and chopping

Basic rule on whipping is you don't whip off strong tiles. Strong tiles being mainly food specials (think bigs) or high production specials like say a copper or horse. With city overlap though, you can share then special tiles as well, which gives some leeway on whipping, but you always want those specials worked.

I'm not adverse to whipping off cottages, but again with helper cities nearby you often have no issues keeping those cottages worked by one city or another. Cottaged FPs though in cap I always want worked though by cap or helper city once cottaged.

Contrary to Pangaea, on this level I'd go Alpha before Currency. Two reasons. Alpha + Maths both give bonus to Currency. Once Currency is in you can immediately start looking to trade old techs for gold. On this level, there will be a lot of AIs that likely don't have some of the little tech yet. They don't have much gold usually, but anything helps. AND you can usually pick up IW at some point for free.

Oh okay, that clears things up a lot. Thanks for the advice. One thing I noticed with your save is that you're building a lot of libraries. Do all the cities get a library, generally speaking? You mention trading older techs for gold. Should I avoid trading for techs? Also as far as whipping, is there a threshold for when a city has been whipped too much? As in if there's a certain amount of happiness where you determine you shouldn't whip a city anymore?

Other than that, at this point should I pick up your or my save, or do I stick to REX strategy at T65? Regardless, I'm assuming I would continue to expand anyway?

 

[Hot_Dawg]

@Hot_Dawg
Okay..I was playing a few turns from you last save..after killing Izzy and came across an interesting whip example I'd like to show you.

Chaco finished it's granary, so I started a library there. I've been monitoring it as the city grows and the lib builds its production. Here you see Chaco is about to grow to size 6:

Spoiler Chaco wants a fast wb :

I've attached the save from that turn.

Notice that I've hovered over the production bar. You see the Library is a 27/90 hammers of production. Now up to 29h of production a library can be 3 pop whipped. At 30h it becomes a two pop whip. Cause a whipped citizen = 30H and 90-60 (2 citizens) = 30. At 29h you max OF from the whip. I've adjusted city tiles so that Chaco only produces 2 base hammers this turn as it grows. I'll show you the following turn how that looks:

Spoiler chaco at 6 :

Notice here that the production bar says 29/90 hammers. I will now whip the library and show you how the looks afterwards (same turn):

Spoiler whip like you mean it :

Now see the production bar reads 119/90! Wait 119H is way more than we need for a Library! What is going on here!!!

Well, we had 29H into a 90h Library. We whip 3 citizens at 30H each or 90H. 29+90=119H.

119-90 = 29H. So what is the deal with this 29H? It is Overflow! Those 29H will appear next turn in the city for your next build. Like this:
(oh..and note that Chaco is already growing back..praise the granary!)

Spoiler anyone want a 1 turn workboat? :

Now see the hover - just to the right of the production bar. "Overflow from previous build" = 30H. (29H + 1base hammer that last turn in city)

Now that wb is 1 turn.

This is just an exercise, but it shows you how you can max OF. Now you don't always have to max OF mind you. Sometimes its just the speed that counts like getting out those first settlers, but I wanted you to see this at work.

(save attached from turn 1 of example)

Thanks for taking the time to show me this. Just so I understand, if speed isn't a factor, I should always aim for max OF right? And regardless, I should grow the city as quickly as possible as citizens are worth more hammers than tiles? What about whipping and having a chop done on the same turn? Does the overflow from both add together?