[BTS] Shadow game for 1st prince win

[lymond]

This is really interesting, I didn't realize chariots were this powerful early game. But is this because she had warriors instead of archers in her cities? What surprised me is how you took 3 cities in 8 turns. That's the kind of efficiency I'm looking to pick up when I do war in this game.

Chariots are quite good on this level if you know what you are doing. Chariot rushes can be successful on IMM. Warriors are crap though you can lose a chariot to one in a city as warriors have some city defense. Honestly, you can warrior rush an AI on Prince and below.

Chariots and mounted in general also have the advantage of speed. It's my preferred method of warfare.

For fun I played my save to see if I could recreate what you did here. It took me 9 turns but it didn't go as smoothly. I lost a worker, a warrior and chariot compared to your one chariot, although I did get a great general. I'll post the save if you're interested.

Well, again my intent was to take Barc since it was just sitting there with 1 warrior and you had a couple chariots around. I lucked out on my chariots not really needing to healing. 2 Chariots survived Barc attack with 4 health and 3.6 health, so moved them up the road and Seville was easy pickings. Just so happened Madrid was as well.

But you could also simply orchestrate a stronger attack building several chariots and then pouncing. As long as she does not have metals it should be easy even with archers. You just need 2 or 3 chariots per archer depending on if city is on hill or has walls.

Oh okay, that clears things up a lot. Thanks for the advice. One thing I noticed with your save is that you're building a lot of libraries. Do all the cities get a library, generally speaking?

Pretty much any city with food I'm gonna build a library if nothing else pressing. In some cases like Chaco its for the culture too, but the city will make use of the library nicely with some cottages and running scientists. Your Philo, so any city that has the food to run scientists, you want to do that to get the gpp flowin'.

You mention trading older techs for gold. Should I avoid trading for techs?

Good question. Avoid trading for dinky techs like say Myst, Hunting, Archery(never trade for this ever) etc. Not a big deal on this level but there is a thing called trade caps. You hit trade caps and AIs stop trading stuff with you for a while (We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced). So I primarily look for gold trades, but I will trade for things like IW definitely., possibly Sailing.
(On higher levels this idea becomes much more pronounced. You really have to think about tech trades and setting up good trades)

Currency allows you to evaluate trades as well, as you can pair trades against their tech and gold. For example:

AI has 30 gold. You match your Writing to their Archery +30 gold. They agree.

Next turn. You match Writing to their Archery but they only give 10g. They are teching Writing for sure. I will trade Writing for their gold.

Also as far as whipping, is there a threshold for when a city has been whipped too much? As in if there's a certain amount of happiness where you determine you shouldn't whip a city anymore?

I assume you mean a certain amount of unhappiness.
Well, not really. Pretty much common sense here. First, you ain't whippin' off strong tiles like I mentioned. I don't mind stacking a little unhappy in a city. The issue is growing into unhappiness without a plan to use that immediately. That can be remedied by adjusting tiles - tile sharing - running scientists - or simply building a worker or settler. In other words, you can always stall growth temporarily to avoid actually running unhappy citizens. I do that all the time.

Other than that, at this point should I pick up your or my save, or do I stick to REX strategy at T65? Regardless, I'm assuming I would continue to expand anyway?

I would continue with your game, but you can do whatever you wish. I'd continue expanding as long as there are good cities nearby, and I think there are.

 

[lymond]

Thanks for taking the time to show me this

sure

. Just so I understand, if speed isn't a factor, I should always aim for max OF right?

Well, not necessarily. The idea was to show you how you CAN max OF. But I don't want to have you put that idea in a box and say that is always the way its done. There are some great uses from maxxing OF. Sometimes you get some pretty good OF any way from whipping without paying that much attention to it like when building a settler.

But let's take for example army build up. That usually involves whipping most cities quite a bit. That is definitely about speed, so you may not pay much attention to OF but just getting out the units fast. Does not mean you can't manage that though.

OF is very easy with whipping things like Axes and Swords at 2 pop. A 2 pop axe at 4/35 will produce 29h. Depending on that city's base hammers that likely means the next axe is 1t.

Or take that example if you are doing melee+cats. 2 pop whip Axe at 4/35 = 29H + a 30H prepared chop and you now have a nice shiny Catapult in 1 turn.

And regardless, I should grow the city as quickly as possible as citizens are worth more hammers than tiles?

Probably an over simplification, but yeah, I'm gonna grow cites as much as they can grow and use that growth for production. At some point some cities are like the cap is going to focus on cottages, and scientists.

What about whipping and having a chop done on the same turn? Does the overflow from both add together?

I just kinda answered that above. Chops are chops - not OF, but those hammers most certainly added together.

Now think about all that and building a wonder? Your are industrious and have stone. You just 3 popped a settler at 39H/100 for 29H overflow (+base hammers that turn). Plus you are chopping. Put all that in Pyramids and those hammers get a huge bonus. That's how the pros do it

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Thanks Lymond, I'll keep all this stuff in mind in the future.

Spoiler :

I'm on T84 now. I was hoping to have currency by now or at least be close to it, but I keep losing gold even with research at 0%. I built a few more workers and have 8 in total, but I'm not sure if it's enough or not. What's the ideal city/worker ratio? Is it neccessary to have cottages on every greenland tile, or just the ones with fresh water and FP? I also worked where I plan to put my next 2 cities. I'm thinking of going for the deer first, then the PH city. Turns out Shaka is west of me, how much of a problem is this gonna be? Another thing, at this stage of the game, are my cities' populations too small?

As far as tech, what should I do here? I need hunting and masony. Should I go back and research both, then continue with currency? No one has IW to trade yet. What do I research after currency? I never know what to do after I have it. Any other advice would be great as always.

Side note, I'm pretty sure I have BULL and I've read in the past that there's a feature to cancel chops 1 turn before they finish? If so how do I turn that on? I screwed up and forgot to cancel the chop in Chaco these last few turns.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Another thing before I forget, I have a great general sitting in seville. What should I do with him? Do I wait to form a stack and have him lead it, or have him join one of my cities as a specialist? If the latter I'm assuming it would be either madrid or cahokia?

 

[lymond]

I'm on T84 now. I was hoping to have currency by now or at least be close to it, but I keep losing gold even with research at 0%. I built a few more workers and have 8 in total, but I'm not sure if it's enough or not. What's the ideal city/worker ratio? Is it neccessary to have cottages on every greenland tile, or just the ones with fresh water and FP? I also worked where I plan to put my next 2 cities. I'm thinking of going for the deer first, then the PH city. Turns out Shaka is west of me, how much of a problem is this gonna be? Another thing, at this stage of the game, are my cities' populations too small?

I'm going to go into more detail on your overall state right now and your economy below, after address immediate questions, but will speak to the workers/Shaka.

1 worker per city is usually fine. More the merrier. What is important is doing the right things with them.

For a Bureau cap I usually cottage very cottageable tile. Cottaging other cities' non-river tiles is really rather situational, but not at the expense of more important actions. FIN leaders probably. But keep in mind to get the core stuff done first..don't just send workers off cottaging the whole darn map while cities look like crap and forests are not chopped.

AIs, even the psychos, are a bit more docile on Prince. On higher levels most definitely a concern. Regardless, you should start building up diplo when you can for practice like trading extra resources as soon as that option is available. Always check your resource screen. With Currency soon, you may be able to trade some stuff for gpt. All this should really be standard stuff for you now.

As far as tech, what should I do here? I need hunting and masony. Should I go back and research both, then continue with currency? No one has IW to trade yet. What do I research after currency? I never know what to do after I have it. Any other advice would be great as always.

I see no urgency for those techs. You will get them. Currency is important.

After Currency it really depends on what you want to do. You could go for HBR/Construction and start fighting, or go more for a teching approach. Get CoL/CS and bulb Philo.

Wow....you still don't even have your first GS. Sorry but that is a problem. You seem to be missing some concepts here.

Side note, I'm pretty sure I have BULL and I've read in the past that there's a feature to cancel chops 1 turn before they finish? If so how do I turn that on? I screwed up and forgot to cancel the chop in Chaco these last few turns.

BULL stuff is not active unless the BULL DLL is in the BTS/Assets folder. Read the instructions in the BULL extract. Some files are copied to custom assets and the BULL DLL to the Assets folder (do not overwrite the vanilla dll..you can disable it by adding another extension like .van or .original)

Another thing before I forget, I have a great general sitting in seville. What should I do with him? Do I wait to form a stack and have him lead it, or have him join one of my cities as a specialist? If the latter I'm assuming it would be either madrid or cahokia?

I usually use the first GS on a super medic. Usually a mounted unit (or a woody warrior). So you can just attach him to the Combat! chariot right there. Promote to Medic III + Morale (if enough XP). Just be careful with him. He'll move with your army later when you start warring again. Subsequent GGs I usually keep with army (not attach), then use him when I need some quick health. Promoting units increase health so it is a great way to heal up a few units when the battle is hot.

========

Ok..problems.

1) First..seems you miss some concepts and advice on the way ..or it just a lot of stuff you getting hit with so it is hard to absorb it all. Understandable. It will all come together eventually.

2) Your economy is not as bad as you think but there are some problems that need to be addressed...or should have been address.

3) Not enough cottage working and I think too much whipping in some places. Not sure why Mound City and Cahokia were still being whipped. There are no workers in the vicinity of those two cities.

4) You cottaged 1E of Mound city? why? Why not cottage 2E of Mound city for Cahokia. That way Mound city can work that cottage for bureau Cahokie later. That is the whole point of helper city. Any other tiles around Mound City will likely be farmed since that city does not have much food. But cottage tiles in Cahokia's BFC that Mound city can help with would def be the priority. And it should already be done. There should be cottages there progressing. Mound city should not be size 2..not sure what it was whipping.

It's really about finding a balance at some point. You don't always have to be whipping cities down if there is no really purpose for it.

5) What are the chariots for? I see no purpose for them and they will cost you. Build libraries in Barc and MC or build research for now.

6) Likewise PP should really start to grow. Good city for a library and running scientists. (I actually got my first GS from that city in my play test)

7) Check your cities. Make sure they are working decent stuff. Seville can take a 2H forest tile and whip that library in 2 turns then grow into scientists there.

8) Cahokia is unhappy ...learn to manage that.

9) Trade Sailing to Sal for Writing....BOOM..what happens?

10) Why is Worker 7 moving across the map to Barc? waste. 2 pop a worker in Madrid for Barc. Move a snaketown worker back to Cahokia/MC to help there after chop. City does not need 2 workers.

11) For extra help in the meantime, some cities can work commerce tiles even coast for a bit to help boost commerce until currency. You don have some more cottages coming online too in some cities. The state of things could be better but you can recover here soon.

 

[lymond]

Take a look at the attached save again. This is the same one I posted earlier where I showed you the max whip Library. I had played from one of your earlier saves up to that point which is 825BC - several turns before your currrent 775BC save.

Granted I don't have the extra city yet, but the economy is much better here. I already have Currency here and not even Sailing yet ( no one would trade it yet). Look at cities, especially the core ones. My first GS I used for an academy in Cahokie since you already had maths in that game. ( I bulbed it in an earlier play test)

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Bear with me Lymond. If I'm doing things wrong it's not on purpose. I'll try to address as much as I can, sorry if I miss anything.

-I don't remember exactly what I whipped in MC and Cahokia, but I believe they may have been workers. As for PP I whipped there because I was having issues with barbs. First one destroyed my pasture, then 3 barbs stacked up outside the border. So I whipped another dog soldier to get rid of them. I was actually gonna ask about that, since it seemed like they became more aggressive after I took out Izzy, and whether or not that's normal. I completely forgot though.
-I didn't think of building cottages that could be shared with Cahokia. The concept of helper cities got away from me there. But I'll remember that from on now.
-The chariots I build for my one unit per city. I figured if I'm gonna have a unit there, I may as well have one that are mounted. Is it a better idea to build barbs instead?
-I'm trying to get into the habit of managing which tiles are being worked. Sometimes I still make the mistake of either not checking all of the cities or letting one go over the happy cap accidentally.
-On the point of worker 7, I'll try to avoid having units move across the map. There are times that I feel like I don't know how to avoid it.
-I looked at your save, and I'll review it again later on today. Is there any particular reason you researched myst?

I'm on T92 now

Spoiler :

I still don't have currency, although I'm at least turning a profit now. But I stopped here because I don't really know what I should be doing with my workers at this point. Should I chop in cities that are building research, or save that for later? Do I build cottages on rivertiles and greenland, even if they're not gonna be worked at the moment? I'm just kinda lost here. Other than that, Zara demanded writing and I gave it to him. Bad move? He did spare cow when I asked, though I wasn't sure if I should've traded for it instead. Besides that what do you think?

 

[lymond]

Oh...I know....just trying to help.

Plenty for your workers to do. Expansion can probably be slowed a bit here. You have ten cities which is great (honestly on higher levels you are not going to expand so fast generally..simply can't afford it). Also, the land north and NE is locked down anyway and marginal at best. It's fine to save some forests in some cities for later. Cities like Madrid now are good for chops for necessary infra and maybe more workers. Or save those forest for a big wonder chop with marble like TGL or Mauso.

Mesa Verde should have continued to be cottaged fully. Still 2 workers onSnaketown.

Basically think of it this way...hypothetically...expansion phase 1 (4 to 6 cities say depending on level)....then secure economy and improve cities accordingly...then maybe expansion phase 2 or maybe some conquest if applicable....then at some point you look for the big research/gpp push and probably a golden age somewhere around 1AD...earlier or later depending.....some of that is relative again to difficulty. As you probably learned by now lots of things with this game are situational. That why I'm not always "absolute" on certain concepts or ideas.

What I'd recommend now is a replay. I'd really like to see you tighten things up and be in a bit of a better position by this date with Currency well in pocket. Go back to the save where you conquered Izzy and start for there. Spiro and Snaketown I don't think were that great. Not terrible cities mind you, but a bit far away. They could be settled later. Instead get that helper city S of Cahokie....and either gems city next tor rice or maybe even go ahead and lock down that copper/ivory/cow spot. I might just settle on the ivory and chop a quick monument for cow/copper..

Helper city is very close so reduces costs. Does not seem great long term, but it can work 3 grass cottages for Cahokie and has to lakes there and rivers. Gran could be 1t chopped there. (well if Cahokie had that border pop earlier). Also, the proximity of that city helps manage workers better between that city and MC/Cahokie. In other words workers aren't running off far to the North and NW on new cities.

A little better focus around Cahokie making sure appropriate cottages are built. Mesa Verde should never be neglected and always has a cotagged FP to grow on.

do that and maybe post in like 5 to 10 turns from there for a quick check.

 

[lymond]

That attached save is the one I'm referring to, but I never looked at it until now. Things were a bit messy here ...ha. I should have really looked at this before and talked about it. Actually, wish you still had saves a turn or two before this one.

There's a lot I can discuss here and maybe we shoud pause for that at the moment. I wait for you to absorb what's written here and above before I go further.

basically there are a lot of problems here on this turn which exacerbated the issues you have on the recent turn

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I don't mind pausing for your analysis. Sadly the only save I have before this is 1400 BC. How bad is it? I had a feeling something was wrong when I was losing commerce on 0% research. As for the post before I'll make a conscious effort to keep cities close to the capital. I just figured I should try to grab resources I don't have by placing cities there, even if they are far. Either way I'll wait to do the replay for now.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I'm on T84 now. I'm not sure if this is much better as I still don't have currency, still no GS, and I'm still short on workers. But I did settle the two cities south of Cahokie and I cut down on the whips. What do you think? Proceed from here or replay again?

Spoiler :

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Bumping to see if anyone had any thoughts on my last save. If not I'm gonna play 10 or so turns in the next day or two.

 

[civac]

You need more workers.Chop some.

Do you have international trade routes? If not build a road to the ai in the north west.

Research Hunting before Currency. You need the elephant happiness and Hunting is much cheaper. Can you trade for a happiness resource?

Do you use the libraries for culture expansions? They are too expensive for that. Keep the library in Mound City. You badly need the second gold. Yes, you can also whip/chop libraries and work scientists but I think workers to build cottages have a higher return.

Mistakes you made earlier:
The double elephant city is in the wrong position. Food resources should be in the first ring almost always. The southernmost city is too early. It does not contribute anything and could have waited until Currency.