Shadow Game for an Old Dude

[Swordnboard]

The food that is used is converted to hammers? If so, what is the conversion rate?

Here's an example. Say I have a city at 4 population, working wet corn (6) and 3 grassland hill mines (1, 3) and building a settler.
The surplus is +3 (11 total, 8 eaten by the population). The is 10 (9 from mines, 1 from the city square). So our final production+food towards the settler is +13, meaning the settler will be completed in roughly 8 turns.
However, we are playing as cyrus, an imperialistic leader, so we get +50% towards the settler. This transforms our 10 into 15, giving us a final production+food of 18 (the settler will be completed in about 6 turns).
Say, instead, we choose to whip the settler for 2 population as soon as possible. So we spend one turn on the settler and reach 18/100. Usually, whipping converts 1 population into 30, but since we are imperialistic, when building a settler we may transform 1 population into 45. 2 pop = 90, so we can whip the settler right away, completing it in 2 turns. A non-imperialistic leader would have to spend 4 turns building (52/100), then 2-whip on the 5th turn to finish the settler.

As for your latest save, there's some good and some bad.
Good stuff: city builds make a lot of sense, researching a good tech at 0%, fogbusting units in the north
Needs improvement: civics (we should have revolted into representation as soon as it became available, since it gives a large immediate benefit in both happiness and research), exploration (scouting out the land of the AI we've already met is important, but not as critical as meeting the remaining AI).
Also of note: You've already settled most of the prime land nearby, so it makes little sense to settle much more of the marginal land that remains. Instead, you will conquer better land from neighbors (probably Charlemagne) soon.

 

[Tonny]

Something to point out that I don't understand. With the tiles being worked now, it is 11t from GLH. If I put that idle citizen on any other tile to work OR use him for a scientist, the turn count to GLH increases to 13, from 11. I've played around with it and I can't see why this is.

A citizen gives you 1. You can see this when you hover over him/her with your mouse pointer.

 

[Swordnboard]

Decided to play through this one a bit myself for comparison, went until T100. OD, there are a bunch of map spoilers in here, so you should probably play for 20 or 30 more turns before checking out the saves and comments.

Spoiler T100 Comments :

In the early game, I relied heavily on worker-stealing and the imperialistic trait to expand quickly, then used immortals to conquer Willem and Charlemagne. Then I focused on cottaging, infrastructure, and economic development. I researched alphabet early on to backfill small technologies, then went for Mathematics and COL en route to an oracled civil service. While I was still gradually expanding, my research really picked up and I snagged currency, calendar, aesthetics, literature, and music. The game is still quite flexible at this point, well-suited for domination or space.

I took some turn-by-turn notes that would be way too much of a wall of text to reproduce here, but I'm happy to provide more detail about anything folks are curious about.

OD, definitely don't feel like you have to start over or replay anything just because you didn't make the same decisions I did. Your position is super solid and gives a lot of opportunities for continued learning. Also, the choices I've made are by no means the only good ones. On the other hand, my game illustrates a bunch of the common strategies that strong civ players become very familiar with over time (worker stealing, rapid expansion, early war, oracle slingshot), and it's definitely worthwhile to know what kinds of things are possible on a map like this one so you can better make goals for your own future games.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Sword -

Spoiler Nicely played :

You quickly took down 2 Ai using the UU. You now have over 59% of pop. Most AI left have 3-4 cities.

I think the right decision on this map is to ignore the jungle. The Ai land requires less workers and is somewhat developed.

Using immortals early on makes great sense as Noble Ai spend so much time building units and a worker which slows them down greatly.

Feudalism now to finish off the AI? Quickly cap them?

 

[Swordnboard]

@Gumbolt

Spoiler :

Yeah, feudalism would probably be the quickest way to win from here. Honestly though, immortals are so strong that this map is probably winnable by conquest by T100 at the latest, more likely T90 (start building them and don't stop!) I preferred to use a more balanced strategy for teaching purposes. May not continue this one, but if I do it'll likely be spacerace (again, to show as many strategies as possible).

 

[Farbulous]

So much wisdom. So much to learn!

Having read through this entire thread several times now, and having trouble keeping track even though I've tried running this game myself a few times, I was wondering if folks would mind similarly guiding me through a shadow game. I've definitely learned some stuff, but would probably absorb more if I was guided directly. What say you all?

 

[OldDude]

Here's an example. Say I have a city at 4 population, working wet corn (6) and 3 grassland hill mines (1, 3) and building a settler.
The surplus is +3 (11 total, 8 eaten by the population). The is 10 (9 from mines, 1 from the city square). So our final production+food towards the settler is +13, meaning the settler will be completed in roughly 8 turns.
However, we are playing as cyrus, an imperialistic leader, so we get +50% towards the settler. This transforms our 10 into 15, giving us a final production+food of 18 (the settler will be completed in about 6 turns).
Say, instead, we choose to whip the settler for 2 population as soon as possible. So we spend one turn on the settler and reach 18/100. Usually, whipping converts 1 population into 30, but since we are imperialistic, when building a settler we may transform 1 population into 45. 2 pop = 90, so we can whip the settler right away, completing it in 2 turns. A non-imperialistic leader would have to spend 4 turns building (52/100), then 2-whip on the 5th turn to finish the settler.

As for your latest save, there's some good and some bad.
Good stuff: city builds make a lot of sense, researching a good tech at 0%, fogbusting units in the north
Needs improvement: civics (we should have revolted into representation as soon as it became available, since it gives a large immediate benefit in both happiness and research), exploration (scouting out the land of the AI we've already met is important, but not as critical as meeting the remaining AI).
Also of note: You've already settled most of the prime land nearby, so it makes little sense to settle much more of the marginal land that remains. Instead, you will conquer better land from neighbors (probably Charlemagne) soon.

Thanks for the great explanation Swordnboard! I did figure out that you get 1 hammer for 1 food after I posted that question but your explanation really spells it out nicely.

Yes, I did forget to switch to Representation after I finished the Mids build. Other than that, was there more bad?

Thanks again!

 

[OldDude]

A citizen gives you 1. You can see this when you hover over him/her with your mouse pointer.

Thanks Tonny. I guess it would help if I hovered my mouse over those units, right? Geeesh...

 

[OldDude]

So much wisdom. So much to learn!

Having read through this entire thread several times now, and having trouble keeping track even though I've tried running this game myself a few times, I was wondering if folks would mind similarly guiding me through a shadow game. I've definitely learned some stuff, but would probably absorb more if I was guided directly. What say you all?

I know, right? I've been a bit overwhelmed at times trying to let all of this soak in. I have put together a cheat sheet in MS Word with all of the great bits of info everybody has posted that I'll be referring to until I know this stuff in my head.

Have fun!

 

[krikav]

So much wisdom. So much to learn!

Having read through this entire thread several times now, and having trouble keeping track even though I've tried running this game myself a few times, I was wondering if folks would mind similarly guiding me through a shadow game. I've definitely learned some stuff, but would probably absorb more if I was guided directly. What say you all?

I would recommend you to try out the NC game. (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-197-gilgamesh-of-sumeria.637039/)
I have played it abit and others will play it as well.
It's very good since it is open to play at any difficulty. Many strong players choose the diety saves and try out the map.
If you then do a shadow-game thread with the Noble save of that game instead, I think you have a bigger chance of getting much feedback.

I know that I can feel abit too streched to really dive into multiple games.
It can be easy to just jump in and give some general advices instead of really looking at the whole situation.

 

[Gumbolt]

Best way to learn the game is play it, watch others play it and learn from what people say. Gradually take on game mechanics and understand how they work. Be it cottage economy, great people bulbing, golden ages, use of slavery and how to fight wars.

Avoid games where you expand to x cities and just wait for the game to finish. Those games never end well. Always be looking to grow your empire by war or expansion of land. That is how you will win most games.

Big downside to Noble games is the AI take forever to fill all the land so your under less pressure to do anything. This is where the higher levels offer a greater challenge.

 

[krikav]

Big downside to Noble games is the AI take forever to fill all the land so your under less pressure to do anything. This is where the higher levels offer a greater challenge.

Thats very true. I'm attending a GOTM now that is on monarch difficulty, I had a blast in the opening analyzing the land, scouting surroundings and planning techpaths. But after that I quickly achieved a winning position and had huge problems with motivation, basically reaching a much dreaded enter-pushing-state. As a result I now have a much more drawn out and annoying game.

 

[OldDude]

Decided to play through this one a bit myself for comparison, went until T100. OD, there are a bunch of map spoilers in here, so you should probably play for 20 or 30 more turns before checking out the saves and comments.

Spoiler T100 Comments :

In the early game, I relied heavily on worker-stealing and the imperialistic trait to expand quickly, then used immortals to conquer Willem and Charlemagne. Then I focused on cottaging, infrastructure, and economic development. I researched alphabet early on to backfill small technologies, then went for Mathematics and COL en route to an oracled civil service. While I was still gradually expanding, my research really picked up and I snagged currency, calendar, aesthetics, literature, and music. The game is still quite flexible at this point, well-suited for domination or space.

I took some turn-by-turn notes that would be way too much of a wall of text to reproduce here, but I'm happy to provide more detail about anything folks are curious about.

OD, definitely don't feel like you have to start over or replay anything just because you didn't make the same decisions I did. Your position is super solid and gives a lot of opportunities for continued learning. Also, the choices I've made are by no means the only good ones. On the other hand, my game illustrates a bunch of the common strategies that strong civ players become very familiar with over time (worker stealing, rapid expansion, early war, oracle slingshot), and it's definitely worthwhile to know what kinds of things are possible on a map like this one so you can better make goals for your own future games.

Hey thanks Swordnboard. I did take a look at your saves and yeah, it seems like this is an easy conquest or domination win for you. I think I'm at a point in my game where the options are to settle in the jungle (which I've read is not a good idea if you can avoid it), or take out Chuck to the east, or just sit tight and grow my cities. Lymond has been taking me through a lot of the mechanics and nuances of the game and I think the focus has been teaching and learning and not necessarily focused on winning quickly. We still haven't touched on diplo or religion much which I know is/can be a big part of the game and strategy.

I don't know what format you have those notes in but if I could get a copy somehow I would love it.

I appreciate yours and everybody else's input. I know Noble is child's play for all of you and not much of a challenge.

 

[Farbulous]

@Swordnboard I would totally love taking a look at that wall of notes if you were inclined to post them up, or send them over.

And @OldDude you mentioned you have a cheat sheet Word doc you are using now... care to share?

 

[Swordnboard]

Hi OldDude,
Glad you took a look at the saves. I wouldn't write them off as on a different level or fundamentally different from your own game. There's still plenty to learn from your own save, but I have some suggestions if you have time to dig a little deeper into mine.
1. Try to envision what happens between saves. What am I focusing on and why? What options did I ignore? How is each unit and city leveraged to the maximum? My notes will help, but try to do some on your own.
2. Measure progress. What improved (land? research? military strength? technology?) since the last save, and by how much? Compare to your own game, and see which areas you are good at and which need more work.
3. Find mistakes. No player does everything perfectly, and even if you find something you think is wrong which turns out to be the right idea, starting a discussion can help clarify misconceptions and give you some new strategies to work with. Getting used to critiquing other players' games can help tremendously when playing your own.

I'll also transcribe my notes in here when I get the chance (They're handwritten and hard to read at the moment. I generally tend to play with a pad of paper and jot things down as they come to me, but that format isn't as helpful as it could be)

Spoiler notes soon :

@Jacob Goldfarb you can definitely start your own shadow game if you'd like! Go ahead and generate a game with similar settings to this one and make a thread with a screenshot/save, and we'll be happy to guide you through.

 

[Tonny]

Thanks Tonny. I guess it would help if I hovered my mouse over those units, right? Geeesh...

Let me start by saying that I understand your reaction to my post, but I posted it by using my phone and did not look at the saves. I just wanted to give a quick answer during my morning coffee.
Well... now for a possible answer how to get TGL faster. I'll only focus on the TGL and not the overall gameplay since you are helped by other great players.

Spoiler Susa TGL :

turn 103: Susa can borrow the riverside grassland hill from Pasargardae 111 for one turn. This will result in a total of 37 (30 from chopping + 7 from working tiles). TGL ready in 11 turns.

Spoiler :

turn 104: you'll have 134 invested in TGL and 24 banked. Now you switch your build to an Axe and only invest 4 with 6 surplus.

Spoiler :

turn 105: you've grown to size 6. Now you 2 pop whip the Axe for 33 overflow.
turn 106: switch back to TGL and maximize production again. 134 + 33 overflow + 6 base.
turn 107: 173 invested. Now you can 2 pop whip TGL to finish it (not advisable, since hurrying wonders come with a penalty. You'll only get 20 per pop instead of 30). Switch back to an Axe again investing only 4.

Spoiler :

turn 108: Back to size 5 and whip the Axe for 33 overflow.
turn 109: Back to TGL again and it will be finished next turn.

Spoiler :

This is just one example of the power of the whip. Not only you have TGL ready 4 turns earlier, but also 2 Axes on the go.

Hope this helps

 

[Farbulous]

I'll also transcribe my notes in here when I get the chance (They're handwritten and hard to read at the moment. I generally tend to play with a pad of paper and jot things down as they come to me, but that format isn't as helpful as it could be)

@Jacob Goldfarb you can definitely start your own shadow game if you'd like! Go ahead and generate a game with similar settings to this one and make a thread with a screenshot/save, and we'll be happy to guide you through.

Notes would be much appreciated if you're able and willing to transcribe. If they aren't doctor-style chicken scratches, I'd be fine with pics instead of you having to type them all out.

Thanks for offering to help with a shadow game. I'll start a new thread once I've got a decent map loaded.

 

[krikav]

Notes would be much appreciated if you're able and willing to transcribe. If they aren't doctor-style chicken scratches, I'd be fine with pics instead of you having to type them all out.

Thanks for offering to help with a shadow game. I'll start a new thread once I've got a decent map loaded.

Do post your own thread, but I once again recommend that you use the NC game:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-197-gilgamesh-of-sumeria.637039/
That way you have a dozen players who already have a understanding of the map.

 

[Farbulous]

Do post your own thread, but I once again recommend that you use the NC game:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-197-gilgamesh-of-sumeria.637039/
That way you have a dozen players who already have a understanding of the map.

I think that makes sense. I like Gilgers as a leader anyway.

 

[krikav]

I think that makes sense. I like Gilgers as a leader anyway.

One got to love a leader with the confidence to greet others with "You are truly blessed to be in my divine presence once again."