A few micromanagement suggestions for you:
-Susa should work the forested silk tile instead of the grassland river tile
-Ecbatana probably doesn't need that grassland cottage. Instead, I'd suggest either chops or more riverside cottages & mines in the capitol.
-Gordium should use Amsterdam's corn tile to grow quickly (Amsterdam will work cow + floodplain village)
-Amsterdam should spend 1 turn growing before resuming the worker so you can make use of your almost full food bank (after growth, work the sugar cottage)
As others have been saying, you would ideally be on the lookout for these improvements every turn. I might suggest you start to look whenever you think a change might be needed, for example after a new city is settled, a city grows or shrinks in population, or an improvement is finished.
But more importantly, you've gotten to the stage of the game where it's time to make a larger plan, which usually means deciding when you will attack the remaining AI. Since you are in quite a good position against the noble difficulty AI, there are many options, for example conquering with classical units (axemen or immortals), medieval units (macemen and catapults/trebuchet), or renaissance units (cuirassier). With more experience you'll learn which game situations warrant which type of attack, but for now I would reccomend choosing one, then focusing your play on reaching the required technology and building up an army as quickly as possible.
Thanks Swordnboard! Some good "finer points" info. Regarding the stage where I'm at now, I was thinking about that. Babs only has 2 cities and Charles only has 4. Considering where I'm at right now it might be time to plan to take at least one of them out soon. I think I could do it with immortals.
I can see I need to unlearn how I've played this game before. With all of the great info I've gotten on this thread from everybody that has illuminated that point very brightly.
OK, I played a few more turns and now I have the stone tile settled. I have a worker on the way there for improvements and a worker on the way to the copper 2 city. I just started to build Mids in Dam and will be chopping that. I've build a few immortals out of my capital as I'm trying to grow it. I'm thinking these guys will be my force for taking out either Babs or Charles or maybe both? Should I chop these guys? I have 3 forest tiles left in my capital.
I feel like I'm kind of at a point where it might be time for another war. Thoughts? Anything else I've missed or should be doing?
Good point. Nope, that cottage is unnecessary. Worker could be doing other things.
Yep, Dam can grow 1t on cow/FP, while Gordium takes corn for a turn. These are deeper micro tips, OD. Then Dam takes back corn to finish worker. If one of these workers back near Pers/Ect had moved earlier toward DAm then worker could be chopped and Gordium keep corn for a few turns. Dam needs two workers on it in prep for Mids.
in Pers I realized that I could have been chopping but do you just want to chop no matter what you're building in the city?
I did not really mention chopping for Pers. I mentioned a chop for Ect for the Granary and Parg getting some chops for settlers. Pers doesn't have any crucial builds at the moment and is just growing for now.
OK. Earlier I was told building the immortals wasn't a good idea, now scouts. So if you've got no more buildings to build that you need what should you be building? For example in Pers I could build an aqueduct but I don't need it right now because it would be a waste, right?
Can't recall what advice others gave you last, but I had mentioned that one or two Immortals would not hurt for now. I said not to build them en masse.
So Pers could slow build an Immortal, and if nothing to build until Alpha arrives, just use Mids as a place holder, or any available wonder. It's not bonus hammers until stone, but you will still get some fail gold later. (Dam will be where you actually build Mids once stone is online)
Things are okay but I would just tighten up on the worker actions and really think about what they need to do. After worker in DAm, this city will start Mids and grow back to cap.
Once Alpha is in you can build research in some cities for a while like Pers if of import to build.
Susa starts LH now and whips immediatley at size 4.
Par can continue to build setters after the worker..it does not need to grow much to be sufficient for that for now. Silk forest and forest just S of Pers, can both be chopped into settlers in Parg (make sure Parg owns those tiles before finishing chops)
I think expansion and growth is good for now, not war. Still some spots that can be settled. Push a few units NW/N/NE to push the barrier up as you empire expands.
Pigs site up near Hammy can probably be grabbed too. N of Gordium a good spot.
Spoilernfl :
ugh...looking like long season for Falcons. Offense is fine but defense has been ravaged by injuries and just not good right now
too much gold banked. Need to raise slider back to 100% sooner on Alpha. Keep tabs on that each turn
ha..mentioned this few times now, but this is an area i've been concerned about not having units up there:
Spoiler:
you a few units lie around hanging out. Having a couple up N in the fog is fine.
Pers looks good but can take that cottage for a while now that Ect is growing on fish.
Not sure why Axe in Parg. I guess you are thinking about war. I'm not really for it as I'd rather you focus on empire management for now - expansion and economy. Willie had to go though, but you still have decent land to settle. It is not a bad idea either mind you, but not what I prescribe for now. Also, be sure to understand what the AIs have available for units. IMM not gonna do much if they have metals. (you can find this out be scouting or simply reading their dialogue on first diplo screen when contacting them..sometimes you have to open the dialogue several times, but they will tell you their best unit available - like "parade of archers")
Stone city does not have urgent need of worker IMO. I might actually build a monument there first to get sugar/gems tiles faster later when we get IW. you could get lucky religion spread there to though...hopefully
Chop in Pers was a waste
Parg can grow on silk for a spell. You really kind of avoid working like PH mines if there is growth options It's fine for building IMP fueled settlers , which Parg really should be doing now.
Surprised that Copper not complete in Gordium...not sure why and how workers moved. Again, meant for worker in Pers area to move E to help out with those cities.
I like Dam taking back corn for now to grow back faster on more hammers for mid. 2 workers there chopping would be good. Not really much to do in Pers area other than one worker chopping for Parg.
Probably trade extra fish to Chuck as soon as that became available. Helps toward a diplo boost over time. Eventually renegotiate for GPT after Currency, unless they have a good resource to trade for. (yeah..maybe you kill him sooner than later, but it is a good practice to start
Hey lymond, thanks again for the great feedback. I've played a few more turns now and I'm at 425BC. I've got 2 settlers on their way north and another one being built in Pars. All workers are, hopefully, being used properly.
Building Mids in Dam, using 2 choppers. GLH in Susa as there's not much else to build right now. I scouted up north with 2 immortals and marked the map with 2 potential city spots.
Spot 1 would give me dye in the first ring with another dye and horsed on border pop. Spot 2 gives me sugar and rice in first ring. What do you think?
I'm thinking the spot 1W of the pigs, W of the stone city for another site although I need to see what else is there first.
Overall I've realized I've got to unlearn how I've always played this game. I need to take my time each turn and try to maximize everything.
So what do you think of where I'm at now?
P.S. Yeah, the Falcons need to shore up that defense. You've got the Steelers this week, right?
Ok..these past turnsets lead me to something I'd been thinking about. First, I think you should pause a bit for discussion and just overall thinking and planning.
Time to sort of think back on what you have been doing and what you have accomplished. Further, lots of things seem to be missed from our discussion in the actual game. I know it is a lot of info to sink in coming from all of us, especially me and my verbosity. But it would be good for some of it to sink in.
What you have accomplish so far is getting up around 7 or 8 cities by circa 700BC, which I suspects is far more cities than you have ever had in a full game..less some conquering toward the end. All while maintaining a good economy. You have improved on some things, learned some things, and grasped at least a few basic concepts. And hopefully changed a bit of your perspective on how the game works and how it should be played. Still much much more to learn.
Now with all other things aside, I still see some lack of attention to detail on what may seem like small items. Worker moves, tiles worked, decisions on improvements. Much of that comes over time with practice and playing, building off the things you are learning.
I think what would be really helpful now is having you be more interactive in the discussion/planning and decision making. Having a bit more discourse before playing a turnset. As opposed, to others just detailing what is wrong or right, and then listing out a few actions/decision that must be done.
I'd bring of Sampsa's earlier idea of his turn by turn checklist - probably mental for him - but I'd recommend for now that you write this out here before each turnset. Not that every units move needs to be discussed - many actions can be generalized. But more something on the lines of :
1) Check each city and tiles worked
2) Ask/think about best moves for workers
3) Check tech and resource trades
4) Tech decisions - (what to tech, do I have enough money to fund tech)
and so forth.
Again, things like this will become mental later, and mostly second nature. But for now it allows us to see your though processes, confirming what is right and suggest alternatives..with the "why". Feeling more of the urgency of your decisions rather than sort of following the advice of others.
Anyway, some questions I have now:
1) Why are you not teching Currency?
2) How did you get Iron Working and Meditation?
I have more but holding off for now for a more general discussion.
Ok..these past turnsets lead me to something I'd been thinking about. First, I think you should pause a bit for discussion and just overall thinking and planning.
Time to sort of think back on what you have been doing and what you have accomplished. Further, lots of things seem to be missed from our discussion in the actual game. I know it is a lot of info to sink in coming from all of us, especially me and my verbosity. But it would be good for some of it to sink in.
What you have accomplish so far is getting up around 7 or 8 cities by circa 700BC, which I suspects is far more cities than you have ever had in a full game..less some conquering toward the end. All while maintaining a good economy. You have improved on some things, learned some things, and grasped at least a few basic concepts. And hopefully changed a bit of your perspective on how the game works and how it should be played. Still much much more to learn.
Now with all other things aside, I still see some lack of attention to detail on what may seem like small items. Worker moves, tiles worked, decisions on improvements. Much of that comes over time with practice and playing, building off the things you are learning.
I think what would be really helpful now is having you be more interactive in the discussion/planning and decision making. Having a bit more discourse before playing a turnset. As opposed, to others just detailing what is wrong or right, and then listing out a few actions/decision that must be done.
I'd bring of Sampsa's earlier idea of his turn by turn checklist - probably mental for him - but I'd recommend for now that you write this out here before each turnset. Not that every units move needs to be discussed - many actions can be generalized. But more something on the lines of :
1) Check each city and tiles worked
2) Ask/think about best moves for workers
3) Check tech and resource trades
4) Tech decisions - (what to tech, do I have enough money to fund tech)
and so forth.
Again, things like this will become mental later, and mostly second nature. But for now it allows us to see your though processes, confirming what is right and suggest alternatives..with the "why". Feeling more of the urgency of your decisions rather than sort of following the advice of others.
Yes you're right it is a lot of info that needs to sink in. I've read this entire thread over completely a couple of times. I am going to put together a "cheat sheet" with all of the "dos" and "don'ts" and points made to have next to me when I play.
Regarding the decision making on things, I have slowed down my play and thought about those things more but thinking back there are still some turns where I have just gone through them without going through the checklist (some habits die hard!). However, when I have stopped and thought about things I believed the decisions made were the right ones. If they weren't then that I think would be because of my lack of understanding of the finer points, which like you said will come with more experience playing this game the right way.
Would you suggest I roll back to 650 BC or sometime earlier?
1) I was deciding between Currency and Calendar and I guess I chose Calendar so I could get those specials online. Currency better at that point in the game?
2) I made a trade with someone for Math (I forget who). It was slanted a little in their favor but they were near the bottom in the point standings.
Thanks again and let me know if you suggest I roll back.
Please be gentle as this is my first post ever in these forums.
I've found this thread to be incredibly helpful as someone who also plays mostly on Noble/Prince settings, and definitely struggles at the latter.
Without derailing or taking things over, I was hoping Lymond or someone could explain a few points that are still confusing to me:
1) Can you please more fully explain the whole 100% - 0% tech slider dynamic. Does it mean that when you can't afford to research a tech at 100% you should drop it to 0% to build up the funds?
2) Related to the first question - how do you tell how much a tech costs? And not just the beakers... or maybe if someone could expand on how beakers are related to commerce/gold? I'm asking specifically because it was suggested to drop the slider to 0% until the tech can be afforded - how do you tell that?
Obviously I have a long way to go, and I've just recently discovered the forums. Maybe someone can point to solid material for learning the crucial fundamentals and dynamics? I tried checking the Strategy articles, and read Sisiutl's guide for beginners, but didn't find it to be overly helpful in addressing a lot of the finer points that have been discussed in this thread, like city placement & management, worker management, what to research when, etc. etc. I know there is a ton to learn so I submit myself to your tutelage, oh wise ones!
P.S. - Just thinking that if this post threatens to hijack the thread, I'd be more than willing to start a new one. I just figured I could piggyback on what Old Dude has already built. Thanks everyone!
How wonderful that this thread has lured someone out of the shadows!
There is today a "Nobles Club" game up, which probably also can be helpful.
Usually alot of players play these games and share their experiences, but as the name suggest, it's most of all a place for players at Nobles level to learn.
So glad that you have taken the step to make a post! There are _alot_ of players who regularly read these posts but not all choose to participate, the more who join for the discussion the better for us all.
Thanks for taking the step forward!
1) Can you please more fully explain the whole 100% - 0% tech slider dynamic. Does it mean that when you can't afford to research a tech at 100% you should drop it to 0% to build up the funds?
2) Related to the first question - how do you tell how much a tech costs? And not just the beakers... or maybe if someone could expand on how beakers are related to commerce/gold? I'm asking specifically because it was suggested to drop the slider to 0% until the tech can be afforded - how do you tell that?
1) Yes, thats the general idea. The reason for this I see as twofold. A) It removes the risk of losing a beaker per turn to rounding error, however this you can get around if you pay careful attention to the economics tab (Click on the dollar sign) and see how much commerce you have, and if you are getting an equal amount of beakers and gold.
B) You have more utility in a big coffer of gold, than you have in a technology half-researched.
The gold have the potential to deficit research _any_ tech, or can be used for unit upgrades or in trades with the AI.
Once you have started to research say Aestethics and run out of money when it's 70% done it's bothersome to remember that you really need to tech sailing.
*EDIT* Saw that I forgot to adress 2).
The true cost of a tech is quite complicated to calculate but as I play regular games I simply look "Ok, it takes me 10 turns to reach AH, and it costs me -9 Gold per turn (GPT) to research at 100% rate. Then I need 90 gold before I start AH"
Things get more complicated when you are planning several technologies ahead... Say you don't have Agriculture nor Hunting and want to research AH. If you click on AH and see "Hunting 5 turns, AH 17 turns" then it will more likely be AH=15 or 16 turns once hunting is in. Since you get a discount for each tech you have leading to another tech...
Resource: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/empire-management/gold-beakers-and-deficit-research/ https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/game-mechanics/technology-research-explained/
*/EDIT*
Obviously I have a long way to go, and I've just recently discovered the forums. Maybe someone can point to solid material for learning the crucial fundamentals and dynamics? I tried checking the Strategy articles, and read Sisiutl's guide for beginners, but didn't find it to be overly helpful in addressing a lot of the finer points that have been discussed in this thread, like city placement & management, worker management, what to research when, etc. etc. I know there is a ton to learn so I submit myself to your tutelage, oh wise ones!
P.S. - Just thinking that if this post threatens to hijack the thread, I'd be more than willing to start a new one. I just figured I could piggyback on what Old Dude has already built. Thanks everyone!
1) Can you please more fully explain the whole 100% - 0% tech slider dynamic. Does it mean that when you can't afford to research a tech at 100% you should drop it to 0% to build up the funds?
This is always one concept that tends to be a bit harder to explain. First, note that at 0% you are still getting the default 1 bpt (beaker per turn) from the palace, so you are progressing. We call this binary research. Due to the rounding issue with gold, it is advantageous in the early parts of the game to run binary research to fund techs at a point when you start running negative gold (in other words you can't keep the slider maxed at 100%), as opposed to running some X% of the slider. You can see this this in game by looking at the difference between gold/beakers when moving the slider back in forth. So you max gold for a bit to then fund the next tech. This binary approach also does some other things like helping you fund expansion, as well as allowing for possible tech bonuses from meeting more AIs/AIs finishing techs. A bit later you will be running scientists from your library(ies) that increase your passive bpts while maxing gold.
Later on things get more nuanced as your beaker multipliers increase and your overall economy blossoms. Additionally, after Currency you will be able to trade for gold and gpt. The rounding becomes more of a non-factor. Still, ideally you will always look to run 100% research, but things get more complex and nuanced on how you manage the slider. Try this later in your game, after you have a sufficient empire (6 or more cities), Currency, and some libraries and an academy in your cap (GLH can be a factor too if you own it). Start playing with the slider a little. Run it at 10% research and notice the difference in gpt vs. bpt at 10% and 0%. Are you making more bpt at 10% than you lose gpt, or even breaking even. What about 20%? 30%?
The point here is that at some point in the game, depending on how you play the game, the 0% - 100% concept changes such that you can play with running a bit of the research slider, still with the intent of accumulating gold to fund the next tech, thus progressing a bit faster. Still raising to full 100% as soon as you can or if you find ways to get chunks of gold from AI trades, wonder fail gold, and GM trade missions.
2) Related to the first question - how do you tell how much a tech costs? And not just the beakers... or maybe if someone could expand on how beakers are related to commerce/gold? I'm asking specifically because it was suggested to drop the slider to 0% until the tech can be afforded - how do you tell that?
Good question and really guys like @elitetroops and @sampsa are much better with the maths side of things (what is it about these Finns?..ha) I tend to just focus directly on the tech bar for the cost at the top. But the interesting thing here is that you don't always need to wait for the exact amount of gold to fund the tech for ..let's say..the 4 turns it now says it is required. I may raise slider when I have enough gold for 3 turns, but can still finish on the 4th turn with the slider at a lower % based on the gold /gpt I have remaining. I bit hard to explain this but you get a feel for this. (and note that even though a tech says 4t to finish, you have been passively putting some beakers toward it)
Obviously I have a long way to go, and I've just recently discovered the forums. Maybe someone can point to solid material for learning the crucial fundamentals and dynamics? I tried checking the Strategy articles, and read Sisiutl's guide for beginners, but didn't find it to be overly helpful in addressing a lot of the finer points that have been discussed in this thread, like city placement & management, worker management, what to research when, etc. etc. I know there is a ton to learn so I submit myself to your tutelage, oh wise ones!
Sisiutil's guide has helped a lot of folks around here in the past, including me, but I think there is not much of an argument that it provides only a cursory introduction to the game, nor was it intended to do otherwise. It is a good tool for starting one's immersion into this game. There are are some other articles in the sub-forum here that are quite helpful, some a bit more advanced. The "Know Your Enemy" article is extremely well put together regarding the diplo side of things, and a constant useful tool for anyone at anytime. Diplo may not be your primary focus now, but it will be and I think everyone always has a time where they need to look to it regarding how a particular leader approaches something.
Regardless, I think shadow games like what OD is doing here is the best way to learn fast. (And keep in mind that the learning process with the game is never-ending ..I've played this game over 10 years and still learn new things) Let's plays are also nice to see good players in action, but the library of good Lps is not extensive for this game.
P.S. - Just thinking that if this post threatens to hijack the thread, I'd be more than willing to start a new one. I just figured I could piggyback on what Old Dude has already built. Thanks everyone!
I think that is more than fine. Shadow games are very much interactive, with both new players and experienced players sometimes playing along. I usually play the game a bit myself just to test things out so I can give advice. However, for you, I would encourage you to play this game as well, and following along apply the advice already given. Or simply start you own game.
I would also note that a new Noble Club game has just been posted up so I encourage you and OD to play along with that one as well. Ha...although I think the original purpose of NC may have been lost a bit over the years, that purpose was to be a helpful exercise for Noble level players, or new players. krikav
1) Can you please more fully explain the whole 100% - 0% tech slider dynamic. Does it mean that when you can't afford to research a tech at 100% you should drop it to 0% to build up the funds?
2) Related to the first question - how do you tell how much a tech costs? And not just the beakers... or maybe if someone could expand on how beakers are related to commerce/gold? I'm asking specifically because it was suggested to drop the slider to 0% until the tech can be afforded - how do you tell that?
Yes, you should run 0% until you can run 100% without going "bankrupt". If slider is 100% and deficit is say 25 per turn and it take 6 turns to finish, then bank up 150 gold first. Several reasons, mainly that while you are banking gold, other AI may have finished the tech and you get a rebate when you start teching it (rebate increase if more and more AI have it). Besides you get 1 beaker for free pr turn at 0%. Last but not least it is very flexible. Other good trade opportunities may come along. Or perhaps you need a crucial upgrade during wartimes.
The very short guide: Start with worker. Food is king. Slavery is strongest element in game. War is good, steal workers, capture cities. Buildings not necessary except granaries and 1 library. The Pyramids and The Great Lighthouse are fine, but situationally.
I've read this entire thread over completely a couple of times. I am going to put together a "cheat sheet" with all of the "dos" and "don'ts" and points made to have next to me when I play.
Regarding the decision making on things, I have slowed down my play and thought about those things more but thinking back there are still some turns where I have just gone through them without going through the checklist (some habits die hard!). However, when I have stopped and thought about things I believed the decisions made were the right ones. If they weren't then that I think would be because of my lack of understanding of the finer points, which like you said will come with more experience playing this game the right way.
Well, in part, right now it's about going through the motions, so to speak. Read the advice, absorb the advice, put in into practice. Hearing what you are thinking though -whether wrong or right - is very useful to the other members in directing advice back to you. Reinforcing the good and correcting the wrong. With that said, outside some rather basic golden rules or basic concepts, there can be multiple ways to play the game. For instance, we could simply direct you toward expanding a bit and then running the map with Immortals - something entirely possible on this level and map.
However, I tend to focus more on the early expansion/economy game for newer players with the idea being to move up levels. The difficulty here is that how one plays on Noble can be quite a bit different than say Immortal or even .sigh..Deity. Sure, there are still some basics that apply to all things, but many things I advise you is more forwarding looking to advancing levels and what you might face when you do. The point being is that a) you may not always be intrinsically wrong in some of the decisions you make - at least on this level, and b) mistakes or decisions you make now can really be felt more as you increase difficulty.
So, right now, IMO the best thing is to better master some of the really basic concepts like worker management and city micro, etc. Improving in areas such as these go a long way in their application later as you move up difficulty.
And keep in mind that there are many other things like Diplomacy, that I've only alluded to so far. Diplo can be quite a complex topic, so I don't want to overwhelm you with that yet - only as needed.
I think that is fine. I would point out that you are still very much in a great position. It's just more about cleaning things up and making better decisions. What I want to foster now is having you make more of those decisions yourself.
But this is essentially a practice game, so all this is an exercise. Replaying is more than acceptable. However, I would soon like to move away from replaying as much as possible and more toward setting up and making better decision before playing a turnset...more on that...
1) I was deciding between Currency and Calendar and I guess I chose Calendar so I could get those specials online. Currency better at that point in the game?
Calendar is not a bad tech, but in a general sense I want to see you prioritize Currency more as soon as possible in games. Currency is a real game-changing tech that opens up a lot of possibilities. It immediately boosts commerce empire wide via trade routes. It opens up the ability to trade resources for more gpt, as well as trading old techs for chunks of gold. It allows you to build Wealth in a city when there is currently nothing important for a particular city to build. All that leads to one thing..faster teching.
Furthermore, it does another important thing that I really haven't discussed so far (well...simply as we just sort of reached that point), and that is Currency allows you to better judge trade transactions and AI progress. You can do this by comparing different transactions in the diplo trade screen with an AI leader. You can start to really see when it is a good time to trigger a trade. (we can discuss this more later)
Which nicely segues to this question. First, good ..I thought that you might have teched IW yourself, although sometimes you may have to on Noble depending on how the AIs are progressing and your needs. You have probably already noticed that with better overall play now you are quite out-pacing these AIs. Still you want to be judicious with your trades. Do you want to trade that tech yet? Does that tech give the AIs an advantage you don't want to them to have yet? How urgent a need is a tech like IW ..now..this turn?
As you move up levels, the tech pace overall will increase dramatically and the pace of trading increases as well. So on Noble, considering that you can and should significantly outpace the AIs you really want to be judicious. In part, it plays into how you want to play that game - what victory. If going for Space per se I might want to prop up an AI or two tech wise to really boost the overall tech pace for a faster Space win. If going conquest, I may really want to hold back on certain techs to widen or keep my military advantage and wipe the map.
Regardless, back to the trade analysis I mentioned in the last question. If AIs are teching something and you know it, you might as well get something out of it like gold.
Lastly, on this topic, you want to be aware of trading for too much little techs like ..say ..Meditation, which I think you traded something for. The thing here is the mechanic with AI called "We fear you are becoming too advanced". It is different for different leaders but there is essentially a cap on techs where they are less forthcoming with trading techs. So you try to avoid trading for those little techs so you can make the really important techs. Again, this becomes more pronounced as you move up levels.
Now back to my comments from last night I'll more expressly explain what I recommend that you do moving forward:
1) Plan out a turnset here and have some discussion before playing. Then follow that plan. That plan starts with you. Lay it out and ask any questions you may have. Others will chime in until we all feel comfortable moving forward
2) Always feel free to stop a turnset if there are some key decision you are uncomfortable with. Do you want to discuss a trade transaction? Placement of a city? Is the Ai doing something you are unsure about? etc.
================
Espionage addedum:
Spoiler:
Espionage is not something we have discussed at all really, nor is it something we probably will for some time. Generally it is not a major factor in any game. However, it can be used "passively" for now for one specific purpose. That is, to focus espionage on one AI for the specific reason of seeing what they are currently teching.
You can do this by going to the Espionage advisor screen and selecting a weight of 1 on the AI of choice. All espionage points will go directly toward that AI and eventually you will be able to see what that AI is teching
Now who do you focus on? Good Question? Generally you will focus this passive espionage on the best techers. Who are the best techers? Usually, most of the Financial leaders and interestingly many of the Imperialistic AIs. (Imperialistic is a somewhat meh trait for the human, but is much more powerful for the AIs...IMP leader are often the best AIs in the game...think Justinian, Cathy, Joao and even your own Cyrus)
However, there is one special leader in this game whose presence means you will almost always focus your espionage on him. His name is one Mansa Musa. Mansa is special for two reasons:
a) He is the best techer in the game seemingly no matter the size of his empire or the quality of land
b) He is the most open trader in the game regardless of his attitude, and with almost non-existent trade caps
Mansa in your game means the overall tech pace of that game will be faster. Knowing what he is teching will help you in trade decisions and getting a feel for the flow of that game. (And note that it is not just about what you might trade with him, but also what he trades with others, because he is a trading fanatic with his openness.
There are a couple of other uses for Espionage but we will not go into them at this time. And there are actually ways to play and aggressive Espionage type game, but you are far from needing to pursue that avenue nor is it an optimal way to play regardless.
Hey OD..I'm gonna post up this link to old thread of mine from years past that I use in these cases as a primer on slavery and overflow mechanics. You can peruse and practice this on your own time, although we may certainly allude to some of these concepts in this game
The link is to an old post where I discuss a few things but more importantly contains three links to deeper discussions on the topic elsewhere. All are much the same, but reinforce of few ideas.
It's not the best or most in depth stuff, because...well..it is just me blabbering, and I'm by know means a math whiz. However, I do give some basic ideas on the calculations and where to look. I do think it something one can build from. Like other things, it takes time and practice to get a feel for the concepts.
Keep in mind, and I think I do allude to this in some of those discussions, that slavery/whipping is not always about maxing overflow but can be just as much about speed.
One thing I do like to emphasize is to be smart about whipping. It is the single most powerful mechanic in the game, but don't just whip for the sake of whipping. It needs thought.
So glad that you have taken the step to make a post! There are _alot_ of players who regularly read these posts but not all choose to participate, the more who join for the discussion the better for us all.
Thanks for taking the step forward!
Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad I did. Already inundated with more information than I know what to do with.
Those first two Research articles were a bit over my head, (admittedly math is not really my strong suit,) but I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the concepts. I'll have a look at the other three shortly. Regardless of my aptitude, they are much appreciated.
Yes, you should run 0% until you can run 100% without going "bankrupt". If slider is 100% and deficit is say 25 per turn and it take 6 turns to finish, then bank up 150 gold first. Several reasons, mainly that while you are banking gold, other AI may have finished the tech and you get a rebate when you start teching it (rebate increase if more and more AI have it). Besides you get 1 beaker for free pr turn at 0%. Last but not least it is very flexible. Other good trade opportunities may come along. Or perhaps you need a crucial upgrade during wartimes.
The very short guide: Start with worker. Food is king. Slavery is strongest element in game. War is good, steal workers, capture cities. Buildings not necessary except granaries and 1 library. The Pyramids and The Great Lighthouse are fine, but situationally.
This was very helpful in explaining the whole min/max slider thing and the "cost" of techs, based on amount of gold in the coffers, so thank you for that @Major Tom
In general, THANK YOU to everyone who has commented or liked my post. That's the kinda welcome that will keep someone like myself coming back, and feeling comfortable generally being a newb and asking dumb questions (yes... I know there are no dumb questions, but you get what I mean.)
Please be gentle as this is my first post ever in these forums.
I've found this thread to be incredibly helpful as someone who also plays mostly on Noble/Prince settings, and definitely struggles at the latter.
Without derailing or taking things over, I was hoping Lymond or someone could explain a few points that are still confusing to me:
1) Can you please more fully explain the whole 100% - 0% tech slider dynamic. Does it mean that when you can't afford to research a tech at 100% you should drop it to 0% to build up the funds?
2) Related to the first question - how do you tell how much a tech costs? And not just the beakers... or maybe if someone could expand on how beakers are related to commerce/gold? I'm asking specifically because it was suggested to drop the slider to 0% until the tech can be afforded - how do you tell that?
Obviously I have a long way to go, and I've just recently discovered the forums. Maybe someone can point to solid material for learning the crucial fundamentals and dynamics? I tried checking the Strategy articles, and read Sisiutl's guide for beginners, but didn't find it to be overly helpful in addressing a lot of the finer points that have been discussed in this thread, like city placement & management, worker management, what to research when, etc. etc. I know there is a ton to learn so I submit myself to your tutelage, oh wise ones!
P.S. - Just thinking that if this post threatens to hijack the thread, I'd be more than willing to start a new one. I just figured I could piggyback on what Old Dude has already built. Thanks everyone!
Lymond, you provided so much more info in your last couple of posts to me that I thought it would be easier to reply this way rather than directly to your posts.
First, thanks very much again...great stuff and much more to digest.
Second, I like the idea of the Noble's Club game. So the game/map is set up and whoever wants to play it starts at the same point with the same leader, etc.?
Third, I decided to roll back to my 650BC save. I'm going to go city by city with my thoughts:
Susa: 1t away from a citizen and lib. Citizen will work silk tile. City will queue up LH after lib.
Ecbatana: 2t away from citizen. 73t away from lib. Worker in city chopping for lib. New citizen will work cottage shared with Pers.
Persepolis: 5t away from citizen. Currently at happy cap. Building immortal as I see nothing else worthwhile to build. 4t away from build but also 5t from unhappiness. I'm thinking I should whip that immortal but it's only a 1 pop whip so it's probably not smart? Should I slow build it and then whip the next one to get under the happy cap? Worker in that city is building a cottage. I know there are more forests to chop but would it better to save them for something worthwhile? I was thinking after cottage (2t) I'd send him to Amsterdam to help chop Mids. Or should I abandon cottage for now and send him now?
Pasargadae: 2t away from axe. I was building that just for an MP. Worthwhile? Waste? It's foreign to me based on how I've always played (not very good, granted) to not have some units in each city to discourage attacks. Thinking settler next.
Tarsus: 2t away from citizen, 51t away from granary. Worker chopping granary.
Amsterdam: 4t from citizen who will work sugar tile when he's out. 35t from Mids. Currently 1 worker chopping Mids with 1 coming over from Pers. After Mids is built, do I switch gov civics or should we just wait until that happens?
Gordium: 5t away from citizen, 19t away from granary. Worker 2t away from getting to copper to build mine, then will chop granary.
Bactra: 11t from citizen, switched build from granary to monument to get border pop earlier for the specials. I realize I need IW and Calendar to improve them though, which I don't have right now. I'm not sure if I would have either one by the time those borders pop so should I go back to granary?
I've got a few axes standing around which I plan to use as MP in new cities. I've got a couple of immortals I'm going to send into the N/NE/NW to scout to plan new city sites.
My plan is to get out about 3 more settlers in short order to settle more sites. After the axe in Pas I'll build settler. Maybe I should build settler in Pers also after that immortal is done to stay at the happy cap for a while and maybe even whip 1 or 2 out of there. I've got 2 scientists running there and I want to keep them going though. I'm also going to need a couple more workers.
I basically wanted to start here again and take it slower, posting my thoughts and plans before executing, as suggested.
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