Shadow Game - Kmer Empire

[OldDude]

Hello Civvers!

I took a LONG break from this addicting game and have recently come back to it. My last level played was Monarch. So I've played a couple of games at that level and I haven't fared all that well so I think I need a tune up to refresh my memory on some of the finer points. I read the Hannibal Shadow Game thread, which is very good but it seems to take better hold on your own game.

I hope it's not asking too much because I know I've had a couple of shadow games in the past but it has been a long while.

So without further ado, here is my game. I drew the Kmer Empire. Monarch level, no huts, no events, all other settings normal.

Spoiler The Start: :

Looks like a pretty decent start. Nice to have gems in my BFC to kick start my economy. I think I should settle in place and move the scout 1SW since it looks like coast there. I may have some seafood around.

I'll build a worker first. I'll start with Ag for techs and then most likely BW.

I'll wait to hear anything back before proceeding so as to make sure my thoughts are inline with the experts.

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

OD is back!

Well, as you may recall, it's always a good idea to move your warrior or scout before making a decision on settling. However, based on considerable info at present I don't see that doing a whole lot here.

SIP could work. My only other consideration or "target" here might be the PH 1SE of the wet rice. The wet rice, being the only solid food resource present, is obviously the "focal point" for any settling decision.

Moving the scout 1SE is not going to reveal too much considering the forest in the fog, but it just might provide enough detail to determine if moving to that PH is possibly worth it, considering that move would lose the gems. Yep, grass gems are very nice but does not necessarily preclude moving for a faster start. It is something I would indeed consider. Gems can always be settled soon.

We can see some desert below the PH, so maybe some FPs in the area.

AG>BW does seem a logical choice regardless.

 

[Fippy]

Good points by Lymo already, i would def. move on the mentioned PH.
Several reasons:
* Rivers..you can gain lots and lots of potentially better tiles compared to SIP, which has gems as only advantage
* Traits..they are the most explosive early combo, further powering a PH settling. Gems i.e. would be in your cap bfc very fast, and can be instantly improved for a second city.
* Maybe your cap would be in a better overall position. NW shows signs of jungle, with some luck east will not. 1s of PH we can see desert, rivers + desert could be floodplains.

 

[krikav]

Nice to have you back @OldDude !

As previous posters, I too would be tempted to settle the PH SE of the rice.
If not that, I would like to at least settle so that forested PH (3 hammer tile) is available for the capital once it settles, so you get the expansive bonus for building the worker.
And if not that either... I would prefer to grow to pop2 with a 3F tile on a warrior, and only start the worker at pop2, to ensure you get 4 hammers total.

Scout SE and settler up on the forested PH is probably what I would have done, and then analyze the T1 situation again after that.

 

[OldDude]

@lymond, @Fippy, @krikav: Thanks so much for the advice and kind words. It's nice to talk to you again and I hope you all are doing well.

I hadn't thought of moving the Settler as I had dollar signs in my eyes with the gems. A good economy seems to be paramount in keeping a good tech pace so I didn't want to leave it. Though as @lymond said those gems can be settled soon.

So I moved the scout 1SE and the Settler to the PH...

Spoiler :

Gems anyway! And lots of FP for cottages.

@krikav that is an interesting thought on building a warrior to pop2 before building a worker. I've always by default built worker first unless I was on the coast with seafood where getting a WB out first was better.

So I'll settle on the PH. I'll move the scout 1E2S to see what's off the coast, if anything.

Thanks again!

 

[krikav]

Growing to pop2 before worker is something that works out quite often when:
* You are playing a EXP leader.
* You have access to a 3F tile.
* You do NOT have access to 4hammers at pop1, but you do have access to 4 hammers at pop2.

I think it usually works out to either getting a worker in 15 turns, or getting it at 18 turns (but being at pop2 already).


Settling on that PH here in this game looks nice imho!

 

[SillyGoat]

Just work the forested plains to get to 4 h/+1 food for a 10 t worker at size 1.


Or if you're willing to accept a slower early game, settle 1 W of the plains hill to grab both gems. Worker takes 2t longer and you're minus 1hpt vs plains hill but you will wind up with an amazing commerce capital.


But early game turn advantage matters so better to settle the PH and build a 10t worker.

 

[lymond]

The city should actually default to a 2H tile here with an EXP leader building a worker. I'd def go worker first here.

 

[Heathcliff]

I would go worker first and agriculture - archery - bronzeworking and get out a couple of archers before you start building settlers and workers.
Exp+Cre and gems makes for a quick start with fast workers granaries. So the only thing that can go wrong is barbs, so I would play it safe and get some archers out.

 

[sampsa]

So the only thing that can go wrong is barbs, so I would play it safe and get some archers out.

I'm not saying that you are entirely wrong, but it's monarch. I wouldn't go archery (at least before BW) even on deity.

 

[krikav]

Yeah, I agree with @sampsa.

Planning to go archery is too conervative.
Looks like coast in the south so that front looks almost clear. Then there is jungle up north, so finding good jungled hills to defend and spawnbust with warriors should be possible.
And BW might reveal copper.


Agri->BW looks good so far, but T5 we might know more.
Maybe there is piggies lurking in the shadows?


Oh, and my previous talk about worker at size2 was only a tangent that might have been a path forward if you settled in place, or settled somewhere to keep the gems and thus miss out on 4 hammers at pop1. WIth settlement on the PH, that path forward is no longer a tempting option.

 

[SillyGoat]

Ag->BW for sure. 10 turn worker + 5 turns to farm rice + 1 turn to move + 4 turns to mine gems means gems worked from t20 onwards.
With that kind of early tech power BW isn't a risk.

 

[OldDude]

Hey everybody, thanks for all of the advice and food for thought.

I decided to worker first. Going warrior first and working the 3F tile would create the warrior and grow to pop2 on the same turn but then 10 turns for a worker and another 5 for the farm to be built. Add 5 to that to mine the gems and we're looking at T23 before the farm is up and T28 before the gems are online. By that time we might be pop3 with another warrior built. Going worker first means the farm is online at T15 and the gems at T20, as @SillyGoat mentioned. We'll probably be at pop2 with a warrior built by then but by T28 we'd probably be at pop3 with another warrior in the fold. So the overall outcome at that point seems like it would be about the same but going worker first gets those resources online sooner. At T28 I may go back and start with warrior just for comparisons' sake.

At any rate, at T5:

Spoiler T5 :

We've got Julius Caesar just to the east of us. I can't say I'm fond of him so I have to keep a wary eye. Also some fish off the coast to the south and hill pigs just NE. A lot of juicy FPs I'd like to claim too. Some early possible city spots showing up already.

I'm going to go through to the worker being built and improving those specials while my scout continues to, well...scout.

Any thoughts at this point are appreciated and I'll post again after those specials are improved.

Thanks!

 

[OldDude]

OK, I'm at T21 now and I've met Shaka as well. Two warmongers to start out with; great!

My scout has also been able to fight off a panther and lion. He is currently healing with a Woodsman promotion to his name.

So at T21:

• There are 2 turns left until BW is teched.
• Worker doesn't know what to do until BW is online - farm one of the FPs? Put a cottage on it after Pottery?
• Another warrior out in one turn
• Pop3 in 3 turns

This brings up a couple of questions:

• Should the worker farm a FP?
• Should I start another warrior next turn, for 2 turns and then start on a settler at pop3?
• Should I wait for a settler at pop4?
• Should I go settler > settler and then 2 workers to try to ensure getting those FPs to the east and the hill pigs?

Spoiler T21 :

Thanks!

 

[konata_LS]

Glad to see people start shadow games

River, flood plains and gems are nice for and tech rate. OTOH, you've met some dangerous neighbours. 1W of the eastern banana (near the bottom right corner of the screenshot) would be a very nice city spot, but settling close to JC is usually too risky, unless you're sure that JC has no Iron. I play also at Monarch level but my early game and worker management are often terrible, so you'll receive much better advice about worker movement and building order from other players.

Anyway, you'll get BW soon, and the location of Copper might change your decision about city placement, because you may send your settler to grab Copper.

Good luck for your game

 

[krikav]

@OldDude You are 100% correct to go worker first. Thats orders of magnitude better than trying to grow to pop2.
The only reason you would even grow to pop2 first is if you lack the 4 hammers for the expansive bonus at pop1, something that wasn't the case after you went up that PH.

I would not aim to finish a floodplain farm, but I would spend 1 turn on making one, and I would like it to be either S or SE of the gems, so that such a farm could be utilized by a city NE of the fish later on.
Once BW was is 1T away, I would go with the worker into the forest SW of the rice between the gems and start chopping that and then continue chopping. I would choose that forest first since it has 3 adjacent forests and thus would maximize chances for forest regrowth.
The next improvement I would like to have made, is to mine the hill 1E of capital, since I think a city 2S of the pigs on the hill looks like a nice spot.
It's a good defensive hill in case Julius gets ideas, and it reaches piggies and floodplains since creative.
I would probably want to place the scout or the warrior on the piggies as I would be paranoid about jungle growth too.

The warrior, I would shift the build queue to barracks for 2 turns now, and finish the warrior once there is 1T left to pop3, maybe the 2 hammers you would get in overflow from finish the warrior could help you get the settler out a turn quicker.

 

[pigswill]

'OldDude: krikav's hill looks like a good spot for city#2 though exploring west and BW may change that plan. Looks like it would take 4 turns to go from pop3 to pop4 so might be quicker to grow and double whip. Don't see the point of putting a turn into a FP farm unless you intend to complete the farm later, may as well move worker ready to start chopping.

 

[OldDude]

Thanks again all for your advice.

I'm at T33 now and have settled the hill 2S of the pigs. I'm going settler back to back to try to nab a spot to the N/NE of the new city. Without TW and Pottery yet there isn't much for a worker to do in the new city. I am building warrior there and I hate using chops for low-level units like that.

After BW came in there is no copper anywhere to be seen so I went AH, hoping for horses. Nope. So, no copper, horses or jumbos. To top that off, Monty is in this game too. So the three civs I have met are all some of the biggest warmongers this game has to offer and at this point all I have are warriors. Should I get Archery soon?

I lost my scout to a lion so for the time being the west is going undiscovered. I'll get a warrior over there.

Is my logic to go settler > settler good?
I'm currently teching TW and plan to go Pottery next. Good?
Should I go Archery after that? I'm concerned about the serious lack of military resources.

Spoiler T33 :

I'll sit here until I hear back.

Thanks!

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

If you want to prep for higher levels where barbs are more of a problem, settler settler like this with so little fogbusting /units is risky.

Probably best to at least throw in a warrior from capital first.

 

[jnebbe]

Archery still not needed

I like playing pretty greedy so I like going making another settler early (although I would probably make a 2nd worker then the 3rd settler, 3 cities with 1 worker is pretty rough)

One thing that's super important on higher difficulties is good scouting; you want to both scout the important areas of map and also not waste time/resources scouting unimportant areas.
Sending the warrior to the southern banana is not good because it's scouting an unimportant area (since JC's borders are already fogbusting and there's nothing you could find there that would warrant settling there) and it also means you haven't scouted the west yet.
The area around cow needs to be scouted soon since it looks like a great 3rd city spot