[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[lymond]

True... I guess that one warrior moving back will bust there for a few turns at least while walking through, and I'll whip the settler hin Heli soon. I could chop him, too... I have that new worker in Memphis.

Well will see. you'll 2pop the settler at size 4 regardless

Okay, sorry, I had already played the extra 3 turns when you recommended that, I think. What I did was this: I wanted a second worker on the Elie-cow to make sure it gets finished quickly. My plan was to then send one of them to the gold (which is irrelevant until Elie grows anyways, so no mad rush there) and one to prechop. On the way from Alex-cow to Elie cow, I noticed that I would waste moves on moving onto the hill SE of the Elie-cows. So, to use this extra move, insteat of moving that worker all the way to the plains W of Alex-gold, I stopped on the gold and mined for 1t. Then the next turn I moved across the river and into the hills. This is how far I would have come that turn regardless, so that 1t mining was a bonus! That's what I meant. This way the other worker, actually finishing the mine, was done 1t sooner and could move to prechopping.

No need to apologize at all. Was not being critical, just that you don't always have to do precisely what I say. My goal is to help you think about things better, so that is why I often will suggest this or that. Doe not mean there is not a better way or that you cannot make suggestions. Sometimes in the process of learning and getting better you will make suggestions that I like better than my own.

I am confused though what you mean by worker moving from Alex cow to Elie cow ( I think I dated those girls ) If I recall on last turnset you had a worker on the gold..this was the worker that I said initially that he should not be roading but then I changed my mind and had him finish that road..and then part mine that gold to time with moving to Elie cow in time.

The workers near Alex cow I had no intention of moving either one of those to Elie Cow.

True! But for me it was really confusing, becase at size 2 the city had 4 happy faces and 3 unhappy faces, which normally indicates that you can safely grow one more level. But I couldn't, because not only did I get the extra angry face for size, I got another one for no garrison.

Well, the happy faces are relatively static until you get something to improve that.

Cap always has 5 happy cap, since it gets 1 from Palace

Other cities have 4 happy cap

Let's call that base happy cap.

If Charismatic, you start with an additional +1 in each city due to that trait.

Then your happy cap increases has you hook up resources, like when Alex gold is hooked up.

Rep will had +3 as well in 5 largest cities

Unhappies increase as cities grow..crowdedness. Whip anger and no MP.

Memphis is happy as it is only Size 2. It has one whip anger. But 4 is greater than 3.

Thebes has 3 from crowded, 1 from whip anger and 1 from no garrison, so it is 5 of 5. Honestly, not too sure why the "safety" thing appears now, but really I see no difference between Thebes and Memphis cause I know that will both be unhappy when they grow next turn. Sorry don't have a better way to explain it other than you will get used to this and see it when it comes.

We avoid MP early as we want those busters out in the field, but at a certain point you do either pull them back in or build more, and it is about that time we can start growing the older cities.

 

[lymond]

I'm out for the night..gotta eat and enjoy the evening. yes, I'm a 'Murican.

Feel free to play on based on discussion for a bit or wait, whatever you wish.

 

[Hesha]

I'll play on a bit. Not sure what to built next in Thebes, though. Will figure something out.

And I knew you're American from your YT channel

Have a nice evening!

 

[Hesha]

I ended up only playing one more turn, because now I have Alphabet and I need some advice on how to trade.

Turn 76:

Spoiler :

I'll have to save up gold for 2 turns, then I can fully research maths and chop the forests around Elie. I've decided to use the new worker for chopping, to get the settler up in Heliopolis done sooner. Will chop into Lib, 2 pop whip and use OF and maybe another chop for the settler.
Not yet sure what to build in thebes... I could build the GW in 6 turns, couldn't believe it when I saw that. But I guess even that is a waste of time at your level of gameplay Could generate some ridiculous failgold, though, by building it for 5 turns
1 worker is mining gold in Elie (will be done when it reaches pop2, maybe 1t after, so I'm happy with my timing there!), two are prechopping.

As regards to trading, in addition to the save, here's three screenshots from the trade windows:

Spoiler Mali :

Spoiler Rome :

Spoiler Arab :

 

[lymond]

And I knew you're American from your YT channel

I'll have to save up gold for 2 turns, then I can fully research maths and chop the forests around Elie. I've decided to use the new worker for chopping, to get the settler up in Heliopolis done sooner. Will chop into Lib, 2 pop whip and use OF and maybe another chop for the settler.

I think you just need 1 turn of max gold. That math looks like you don't have quite enough, but on the last turn you can tweak the slider a little bit to finish I think. (I'd mention this before when I discuss slider business) edit: (in my test it worked perfect actually with 1t maxxing)

I would not chop into Library. Again, that is not my concern at the moment. You will be able to whip it at some point.

I would do the following in Helio:

1) Switch mine citizen to 2F1C coastal tile to max growth this turn
2) Grow on mine and back to settler.
3) chop into settler in helio (only if hammers +base that turn does not put settler over 69H of production) I'm going to test that myself
(edit: I tested this and it works well, chop will put settler at 60H of production the next turn)
4) 2pop whip settler the turn after into another settler
5) back to Library for growth

Not yet sure what to build in thebes... I could build the GW in 6 turns, couldn't believe it when I saw that. But I guess even that is a waste of time at your level of gameplay Could generate some ridiculous failgold, though, by building it for 5 turns
1 worker is mining gold in Elie (will be done when it reaches pop2, maybe 1t after, so I'm happy with my timing there!), two are prechopping.

Oh..I think GW in Thebes for some fail gold is a great idea. First...ha..and oh..this gets into some complicated stuff, but I would not finish granary until the turn after it grows. I have a reason for this that I will explain later, but lets not get into now.

Seeing that you are moving that warrior on to Memphis, then queue a warrior in Thebes now. That will be Thebes MP. Warrior is two turns, at which time Thebes grows to size 5, and finish granary.

Do not move warrior away from Alex. That area still needs busting. Move him back to stand on cows for now (and notice that you save 1gpt by moving him in your borders)

Then GW for now in Thebes. (but we will not complete it there mind you)

As regards to trading, in addition to the save, here's three screenshots from the trade windows:

I will discuss this in a new post below as there are some important things to discuss.

All other cities look fine for the moment. I would have moved that worker from Alex over to the forest S of Elie to chop as the one he is on to the NE leaves him in a bad spot for next movement. From S spot he could move to forest 2S of cows, while the guy pre-chopping above him moves to PH forest. Guy on gold mine could move to that forest after the mine at which time Maths would be done. But neither here nor there now....little stuff I guess

On another note, I want to point out potential areas where barb galleys can spawn. Note the marks on the map below:

Spoiler Barb Galleys OH MY!!!! :

the N area can be fixed with that warrior and axe up there. That warrior should move 1E I to light up that one spot..we never want a galley spawning there later when easily prevented. The axe can keep the other side lighted.

With Alex warrior moving back to cow spot, the land areas are completely safe from barbs. Things can be adjusted when new cities are settled.

Not too much we can do about the far SW coast for now. That one warrior is taking care of much of it but there are still some danger zones. New cities soon will remedy the problem.

please follow the above stuff in this post closely

 

[lymond]

Ok...separate post as I'm going to be talking about some new and important concepts. Very important so I encourage you to really pay attention and reread as well.

First, you can start with the Foreign Advisor Screen (F4 or 4th button from the left at top right) > Tech tab to initially see the tech situation. It looks like this:

Spoiler Tech :

I check the screen every turn from the point I or others get Alpha. You can see what they don't have that you do (what they want). What techs they can research now. And what they are willing to trade or not.

Right click on the leaderhead and you bring up the diplo dialogue with them, so this is a good place to start first instead of clicking on each leader from the scoreboard.

So how to I use this. First, I ask myself what tech I want and what I'm willing to trade away. Of the techs they have right now, I'm most interested in IW. It is a reasonable trade for Alpha. But do I need to do that now?

JC and Sal do not have access to Alpha yet as they don't have writing. (I don't care about Hunting at all so I'm not going to trade for that..more on that later)

Mansa does have Alpha, so I will to see if I need to trade for IW now. Note: We are not pressed to get IW at this time..keep that in mind.

Right click on him > Select Alpha on your side > IW on his side > And "What would make this deal work"

You should see this:

Spoiler give me yo stuff :

What does this tell me? First, in terms of tech trading with AI, IW and Alpha are closer in value than appearances, even though IW costs less beakers. AI trades are never fair. Monopoly techs though do have higher value - that is either you have a monopoly on X tech or they have a monopoly on Y Tech.

At this time, you have a monopoly on Alpha. IW is not a monopoly tech...all the other AIs have it (and most times they do as it is an AI priority tech..more on that later)

Soooo...back to what this tells me? Mansa will give me IW and Meditation for Alpha. Heck if you move out Med and put in Poly (a more expensive tech), he will give you that an IW as well. What this tells me is that Mansa is not teching Alpha at present.

IW is something we do want, but we are not pressed for it. I don't want to trade away Alpha just yet. There is another particular point I will address below and that is the topic of:

Mansa Musa

First, you have now met him. He is in your game. You have met 3 Ais now so you will soon have a wealth of trade routes which is good.

But Mansa is something I want to discuss because he is a special character in this game. There are two main reason I call him special:
1) Mansa is the best techer in the game. Even with bad land he tends to do very well.
2) Mansa is the only AI that trades freely - with you and the Ai. He trades regardless of relationship or trade caps (which I will not go into at this time) He even trades freely in semi-iso situations

Overall, what this means is that when he is in your game the overall tech pace will increase some or significantly. This can be a good thing if you use it well and wisely.

But right now, i don't really want to give him Alpha yet if I don't have to because he will start freely trading with the others. Not a huge deal, and they are clearly behind him anyway. But it is something to consider.

Anyway, I would not trade anything this turn based on my analysis of the tech screen and dialogues.

This brings me to my final point:

Espionage (EP) focus:

You may have noticed that you get +4ept or espionage points per turn. Maybe you have not, but likely you've not paid much attention to it. Up to this point those 4 ept are split among the AIs you met, slowly accruing.

However, a common practice when we start meeting AIs is we look for what we consider to be the best techer among the group and focus all EPs on that leader.

I'll show you what I mean.

Here's the EP screen (Ctl-E or spy button at top right) this turn:

Spoiler :

As you can see ep is split among the 3 now. JC obviously has more as you have known him longer than the others.

But now you know Mansa, so I would immediately focus all EPs on him simply by changing the weight to 1, like so:

Spoiler :

Now with all EPs focused on Mansa they will accrue faster toward him. Eventually, you will be able to start seeing what he is teching next to his line on the scoreboard at the bottom right. This happens when you reach a certain threshold of points toward him, which he can see on the right of the EP screen under "Passive Effects". That changes as well if he starts putting points into you, but he may not for a while..hopefully.

Once you see what he is teching, or any other good techer, it helps with making tech and trade decisions. Its very useful information that can be acquired pretty much passively.

Okay..an additional point:

Resource trades:

From the resource tab in the Foreign Advisor screen:

Spoiler I really want you to like me before I kill you :

This is another tab that you want to keep an eye on frequently, and even gets more important after currency when you can trade extra resources for gpt.

But early, you can still trade extra copies of health or happiness resources to leaders if they don't own one themselves.

Heck, I sometimes even trade a resource if I have one copy..usually never happy, but I will with health resources if health is not of immediate concern. (and if you are Expansive this works even better since the trait gives you health) I may even trade away ...say ..horses for a spell if I don't need them.

Resource trading starts the process of diplo boosting. Over time, you will get up to a +2 diplo boost from resource trades. Trade more resources and the goes faster.

Of course, you can trade your extra copies for something you don't have .

Right now, all of the AIs do not have cow and you have an extra copy. They apparently do not have anything to trade to you - happy or health. I'm inclined to gift cows to JC right now. Main reason I pick JC is that he is closer and is the more aggressive of the 3 generally.

After Currency, you will look to trade resources for gpt.

 

[krikav]

Excellent post @lymond
You should break out that into a own post with title "Tech trading for beginers" to make it more searchable.

I want to add some tidbits around resource trading...

I pay attention to what AI I'm gifting resources and where they are, what resources they have.
If I see say... Suleiman (a non-expansive AI) with his capital really large in the BCs (pop10?) smack in the middle of a whole lot of floodplains, while I see that he is willing to trade all of my health-resources, while he apparantly isn't interested in my gold/gems/fur (he has his own, most likely).
Then I will NOT gift him clams, because that will benefit him.

But gifting health resources to AIs in the early game, and especially if they are expansive (+2 health from the bat) or if they already have some health resources like Saladin does in that screenshot of @lymond.
He isn't willing to trade sheep, fish or clam ("we would gain nothing from this"). Giving him more health resources will give him zero benefit.



Also, gifting Julius cow is perfecly OK, and a sane decision.
BUT I would rather give him clam.
Why?
Because both Mansa and Sally has surplus clams, and are willing to to trade them to civs lacking clam.
After gifting Julius clam, I would lack my own clams, and would then be able to trade for clams with either of them. I would then pick Sally, because it's not really needed to be friendly with Mansa, he is your best buddy anyway.

So, gift Julius clams, then cows for clams with Saladin.

It's important to strike deals, to tie up the AIs spare resources.
If you don't do this trades, next turn perhaps Julius hooks up a second source of gems, and then trade them away for clams with Sally. :'(

 

[Hesha]

Turn 82:

Spoiler :

First settler is finished, sending him down to the coastal rice location. From what I have revealed of the map by now, it looks like the final AI should be isolated elsewhere on the map. I'm half-thinking I should have built 2 scout wbs and send one around the other continent in the opposite direction.
Maths is done, so I can chop into mids now, should need about 3 forests to finish. GW is almost done in thebes, have to make sure I don't finish it by accident If nothing better is available, I might continue work on Moai or something, unless someone has a better idea.
I have paused here, because I assume that maths will open up new opportunities for trade, so I wanted your input:

Spoiler :

Oh, I'm also considering to chop Gran in Alex, because... I don't see what benefit the city would gain from growing (very slowly) to size 3... but it would be back at size 2 in no time, if I chopped... what do you think?

 

[krikav]

Alt+M creates a reminder, invaluable when it comes to not finishing wonders.

I would trade alfa+math for MC with Mansa, and math for IW with Saladin and leave poor Julius behind.
I imagine that you will outtech most of these AIs soon and might as well get something from them prior to that.
But you can also just avoid trades all together and thus refraining from boosting them at all.
Or you could just trade math for IW with Saladin, since none of them has alfa yet they can't trade it around more.

I see no forests inside culture in Alexandria, wouldn't chop anythign outside of culture.
You mean whipping?
Post a screenshot of Alexandria and we might take a detour down the deep rabithole that granary mechanics are...

 

[Hesha]

Oh yes, sorry, I did mean to whip, not to chop. Here's the city screen:

Spoiler :

Now tell me about that rabbithole

 

[krikav]

You should now whip there. Whipping away the gold, for no real benefit.
IF stone city would have been able to take the gold, this would be a almost perfect time to whip, as the food bar is half-full.

Thats the short answer... The longer answer can be found partly here:
https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/st...echanics-of-food-growth-granary-and-whipping/
When a granary is completed, only then it starts to fill it's "Inner storage", when you grow a population, the food bar is filled up equal to what was in the inner storage.


Have diven abit deeper into this here:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/where-is-my-granary-bonus.646692/page-2#post-15471739
And I know there are probably still nuances to be investigated... Such that if you complete a granary, utilize "avoid growth" and then build worker/settler...? Does this affect inner storage? I imagine it does, but I haven't made investigations yet.
Also unclear is how starvation affects the inner storage.

But thats just miniscule details, whats at hand for you right now is.
Don't whip away good tiles such as goldmines.

 

[Hesha]

I think I will just trade IW for Maths with Sally then. Since Hunting is a nono. Don't really want to give Alphabet away, especially if that means crazy trading for the AI. Do you think it would make more sense to wait for currency to be researched, so I can get more out of it?

I just received the message that Julius finished the GW. I have one turn left to complete it - and I can 1 pop whip for it. Is failgold worth it? I mean... 30h times 2.5, that's 75 gold for 2 pop, if I'm not mistaken... should I do that?

 

[krikav]

There is a penalty for whipping wonders, so you don't get 30H per pop.
If it was in a city that had better food, I would do it. But I think it's worth more to keep the population up in this capital.

Don't really understand what you are asking about currency. You hope to get some gold in the deal when you trade alfa<->iw?
That is of no relevance really, if you want IW just trade now.

Getting "fair trade" diplo bonuses with the AIs are also good, so don't worry about giving them too much in deals.

 

[lymond]

No save on last report.

If you can trade Maths + Alpha to Mansa for Metal Casting, that is an absolute no-brainer here. You must do that. Not only is that a great trade for a very important tech, but it opens up cheap IND forges. And you can think about building Colossus in Thebes. Won't that be fun.

Alpha or Maths to Sal is fine.

If JC finished GW then it is done. Trade for MC with Mansa and start a Forge in Thebes now

yeah, the fail gold will be worth it, but you can't finish GW yourself anyway

I would not worry about not having Currency now, but your thinking is not off base. Later you will be able to trade for gold too. Also, gold allows you to better determine if an AI is teching something.

Sidenote: I did not mean to over-emphasize the whole trading Alpha too early idea, but just wanted you to be cognizant of having a monopoly on it and gauging whether AIs are teching it or not. On lower levels I will often do this, but on higher levels you likely don't have much time to mess with that anyway. And sometimes, for whatever reason you just want IW sooner than later. I'd say if I had the choice between trading for IW or Maths, I'd choose Maths. Ofc, when you know more AIs you have more options.

This is what I would do with scout WB. The turn you find Sal's borders, the next turn you should start seeing some Arabian trade routes. I would then send WB back down S to scout what appears to be some landmass to the SW. Considering that this is a small map I think the likelihood is the last AI is down there somewhere, as there would be not much room past Sal I think for another guy.

Granary in Alex? I would continue to slow build for now. It is close to done anyway. But don't finish it at size 2. Finish it immediately at Size 3. Build gran to 1t from finish then switch to a Forge until Size 3 > finish gran.

Forest near Alex is not in cultural borders yet, so I would no waste it.

 

[lymond]

hey hesh - I'm helping CGQ in a thread just below this one. I just explained the granary concept to him, which I have avoided so far with you - though I've alluded to it. I will post a link to the post where I explain it in the second paragraph. Feel free to ask questions. Granary mechanics can be a little confusing.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ra-yaqob-ethiopia.652779/page-2#post-15622374

 

[lymond]

ugh..I meant Colossus in Memphis. Keep the Great Merchant points in there, which are great by the way.

@krikav I pinged you yesterday in a post with a question

 

[Hesha]

There is a penalty for whipping wonders, so you don't get 30H per pop.
If it was in a city that had better food, I would do it. But I think it's worth more to keep the population up in this capital.

I tested it. With whipping 1 pop I get 161 gold, without it is only 124.

Don't really understand what you are asking about currency. You hope to get some gold in the deal when you trade alfa<->iw?

Yes, that was exactly the reason

That is of no relevance really, if you want IW just trade now.

Getting "fair trade" diplo bonuses with the AIs are also good, so don't worry about giving them too much in deals.

Okay, good to know.

No save on last report.

Sorry, I've added it!

If you can trade Maths + Alpha to Mansa for Metal Casting, that is an absolute no-brainer here. You must do that. Not only is that a great trade for a very important tech, but it opens up cheap IND forges. And you can think about building Colossus in Thebes. Won't that be fun.

Okay, will do that then! Colossus sounds cool.

Alpha or Maths to Sal is fine.

Will do. Do I have to do this now or can AI only trade during their turn?

If JC finished GW then it is done.

Nope! You get the message that someone finished a wonder one turn before your own production fails / you get failgold. So there is still time to whip(/chop?). Which in this case meant a difference of 37 gold.

Trade for MC with Mansa and start a Forge in Thebes now

Okay, will try to get MC then!

yeah, the fail gold will be worth it, but you can't finish GW yourself anyway

Not finish as in actually build it, but I could finish it as in max hammers.

I would not worry about not having Currency now, but your thinking is not off base. Later you will be able to trade for gold too. Also, gold allows you to better determine if an AI is teching something.

Okay. If I should not worry about Currency, what do you want me to research?

Sidenote: I did not mean to over-emphasize the whole trading Alpha too early idea, but just wanted you to be cognizant of having a monopoly on it and gauging whether AIs are teching it or not. On lower levels I will often do this, but on higher levels you likely don't have much time to mess with that anyway. And sometimes, for whatever reason you just want IW sooner than later. I'd say if I had the choice between trading for IW or Maths, I'd choose Maths. Ofc, when you know more AIs you have more options.

Okay, noted!

This is what I would do with scout WB. The turn you find Sal's borders, the next turn you should start seeing some Arabian trade routes. I would then send WB back down S to scout what appears to be some landmass to the SW. Considering that this is a small map I think the likelihood is the last AI is down there somewhere, as there would be not much room past Sal I think for another guy.

I already found Sal's border a few turns ago, will turn around now and look for the 4th AI.

Granary in Alex? I would continue to slow build for now. It is close to done anyway. But don't finish it at size 2. Finish it immediately at Size 3. Build gran to 1t from finish then switch to a Forge until Size 3 > finish gran.

Good play. Yes, I understand now how the granary only charges up with your surplus food from the turn you complete it, so finishing it just before growing does nothing for you.

Forest near Alex is not in cultural borders yet, so I would no waste it.

No, sorry, I meant whip, not chop. I misspoke.

hey hesh - I'm helping CGQ in a thread just below this one. I just explained the granary concept to him, which I have avoided so far with you - though I've alluded to it. I will post a link to the post where I explain it in the second paragraph. Feel free to ask questions. Granary mechanics can be a little confusing.

Will read it!

ugh..I meant Colossus in Memphis. Keep the Great Merchant points in there, which are great by the way.

Haha, I was going to ask you that question: "Why pollute Thebes GP-pool with great merchants?" Then again, we have already polluted with engineers, I guess, cause what we really want is Scientists, right?

So big questions at the moment: What to research?

Should I consider the hanging gardens or only for failgold?

Will I build forge in Thebes and Memphis then?

 

[lymond]

Okay...looking at Turn 82 save..first some observations of note

1) I think I had recommended moving that warrior to Alex cow earlier. Again, units cost more outside borders. See what happens to your GPT when you move him to the cow.....(warrior is still busting that area when standing on the cow)

2) Look at the tool to to the left of the production bar into Helio. Notice the 27H of overflow from the well timed chop/whip of the settler. Nice! something to think about

3) Ugh..Mansa won't trade MC for Alpha/Maths. He is clearly teching Alpha now as he won't trade it for IW. Actually I would have trade Alpha for IW with him the turn he would not trade something more than IW for it. (remember my discussion early when I talk about him giving IW+Med or IW+Poly)

No problem though..we can probably setup a trade of something like currency for MC

4) No Currency is a great tech right now. Keep at it! I just meant not to worry NOW about not having Currency for trading..that was not comment on the tech itself, which IMO is the most important tech it the game next to BW.

So..let's talk about this turn

Thebes runs two scientists now asap. Should have done this sooner at Size 5 unless it just grew..that is possible

I might consider trading something like Cow/Fish to Mansa for Ivory. You are not hurting on happy, but it is not hurting you either..and you build some diplo. You do have another cow at least later.

Keep checking Writing vs. Hunting with JC each turn. The turn he will no longer give you Hunting for Writing then just gift him Writing. Gifts like that can be helpful later. You likely will not get any "fair trade" points from that, but eventually you get a bonus for sharing technology.

note: "Fair Trade" has a max up to +4 but also deteriorates. "Sharing" takes time and varies among leaders as they have different thresholds (I think from 7 to 20 techs), but when you get the bonus +1 it is permanent. I linked this before, but this strat article really helps with knowing how requires what:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/


Otherwise, I think everything is good. Worker E of Elie can move back to help with rice after that chop.

Continue banking until you can complete currency

You got your EPs on Mansa...check

Thebes can actually build a settler now. Yeah it is 12t with running two scientists, but you have 2 forests to chop there. Do not whip in Thebes.

hmm..Hanging Gardens can be nice. You do have to build an Aqueduct though which is expensive. I would want at least a granary first though in Elie before I consider HG. But it is not a bad idea...plus you get those engineer points there.

Oh..I think Maths to Sal now is fine for IW..just do it

hmm...just notice JC caught Hinduism instead of Bud. pretty sure mansa founded both of those religions. Will make things interesting especially when they start spreading to you soon. And those guys will not like each other.
(ha..in my earlier test..Sal, mansa, and JC were all Bud)

 

[lymond]

Also, just for observation, go through and check your trade routes now.

 

[Hesha]

1) I think I had recommended moving that warrior to Alex cow earlier. Again, units cost more outside borders. See what happens to your GPT when you move him to the cow.....(warrior is still busting that area when standing on the cow)

Yes, you had told me that, but no, it does not. The desert tile was fogged with the warrior on the cows, that's why I moved him back.

2) Look at the tool to to the left of the production bar into Helio. Notice the 27H of overflow from the well timed chop/whip of the settler. Nice! something to think about

Yep, that is pretty nice

3) Ugh..Mansa won't trade MC for Alpha/Maths. He is clearly teching Alpha now as he won't trade it for IW. Actually I would have trade Alpha for IW with him the turn he would not trade something more than IW for it. (remember my discussion early when I talk about him giving IW+Med or IW+Poly)

No problem though..we can probably setup a trade of something link currency for MC

Ah, okay. That's a pity. Maybe he will take Maths+Currency then.

4) No Currency is a great tech right now. Keep at it! I just meant not to worry NOW about not having Currency for trading..that was not comment on the tech itself, which IMO is the most important tech it the game next to BW.

Oh, I see, will continue then.

I might consider trading something like Cow/Fish to Mansa for Ivory. You are not hurting on happy, but it is not hurting you either..and you build some diplo. You do have another cow at least later.

Okay. Cow then, as there is another cow I can simply connect if I need it.

Keep checking Writing vs. Hunting with JC each turn. The turn he will no longer give you Hunting for Writing then just gift him Writing. Gifts like that can be helpful later. You likely will not get any "fair trade" points from that, but eventually you get a bonus for sharing technology.

Him stopping to accept the trade means that he is nearly done researching it himself? What do I gain from this exercise, to know what he is researching? Also, how do I check? By asking what would make that deal work for him?

note: "Fair Trade" has a max up to +4 but also deteriorates. "Sharing" takes time and varies among leaders as they have different thresholds (I think from 7 to 20 techs), but when you get the bonus +1 it is permanent. I link this before, but this strat article really helps with knowing how requires what:

That sharing modifier is just based on the total number of techs you have gifted and/or trading in the course of the game?

Otherwise, I think everything is good. Worker E of Elie can move back to help with rice after that chop.

Ah, cool. I was worried about this, because he won't reach the cow before the new city is founded, but 2t later.

Continue banking until you can complete currency

No need, the failgold from GW will float my research!

You got your EPs on Mansa...check

Yup.

Thebes can actually build a settler now. Yeah it is 12t with running two scientists, but you have 2 forests to chop there. Do not whip in Thebes.

Okay, will do!

hmm..Hanging Gardens can be nice. You do have to build an Aqueduct though which is expensive. I would want at least a granary first though in Elie before I consider HG. But it is not a bad idea...plus you get those engineer points there.

Ah yes, and fits in nicely, because the mids are also spawning GEs. I'm beginning to see a pattern...

Also, just for observation, go through and check your trade routes now.

I do that all the time. That is, if you mean opening the city screen and checking which 3 cities the city is trading with. Or is there another panel to look up trade routes?