[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses

[lymond]

Yes, you had told me that, but no, it does not. The desert tile was fogged with the warrior on the cows, that's why I moved him back.

Remember, a unit busts a 5X5 tile area from the tile he stands on - including coastal tiles - that desert tile was busted regardless that it was dark

Yep, that is pretty nice

Yep, and I wanted you to be cognizant of not only the tool tip and using the info in your city screen, but that whole activity prior that lead up to it. The timing of the chop and everything with the settler. So far in this game you have not really had a great deal of food to work with like Thebes, but other maps you might have much more food and would really work that whip/chop mechanic.

Ah, okay. That's a pity. Maybe he will take Maths+Currency then.

Tis something to consider

Him stopping to accept the trade means that he is nearly done researching it himself? What do I gain from this exercise, to know what he is researching? Also, how do I check? By asking what would make that deal work for him?

Kinda how I explained it in the Mansa discussion yesterday. Bring up the dialogue - select Hunting on his side/ Writing yours and then "What will it take". Right now, he would except that trade. Hunting is quite a bit cheaper anyway. Heck, he could actually be teching Writing regardless. But once he does not give you hunting for Writing, you certainly know he is well on his way to completing it. No harm in just gifting it to him then. (Note: in many games I will just gift old techs outright anyway..just depends on the situation and who my neighbors are) And later with Currency, just trading cheap techs for chunks of gold.

That sharing modifier is just based on the total number of techs you have gifted and/or trading in the course of the game?

# of techs gifted over the course of the game. For JC it is 10 tech before you get a bonus. Check that link and select his name and you will see this in the middle somewhere.

No need, the failgold from GW will float my research!

Ah..not sure how much you will get..but just may do the trick

Ah yes, and fits in nicely, because the mids are also spawning GEs. I'm beginning to see a pattern...

Yep, gp pollution is a consideration. I don't worry too much about GE pollution since they are harder to get anyway and can be nice when you get one. What I do know is that I want a city - usually the cap - getting that first GS uncontested early on.

But hypothetically, while combining GE points in one city like that can be nice, one might consider building HG in another city if it can get it up faster - like it has more food and forest. Ha..we've killed the forest on Mids in Elie. Don't think we really have that situation here though. But still you can at least. passively try for HG in Elie - if you get it, great, if not, so be it.

I do that all the time. That is, if you mean opening the city screen and checking which 3 cities the city is trading with. Or is there another panel to look up trade routes?

Good..nah you got it

 

[lymond]

Oh..just to be clear..the whole diplo bonus from "sharing technologies" applies to all techs given to an AI - whether trading for something or gifting. It's not just gifting techs that applies. Just making sure no confusion there. In other words, by the very act of trading techs with Ais over time that bonus is building up. It is kinda of little thing, since it takes time for this especially for leaders that require 20 techs, but it is something to be aware of. It can be very helpful to build up if pursuing a Diplo Victory later. But in short term can may help with relations. Some AIs only require 7 techs. And there is no limit on the bonus.

 

[Hesha]

Remember, a unit busts a 5X5 tile area from the tile he stands on - including coastal tiles - that desert tile was busted regardless that it was dark

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought busting was working exactly in line with the fog of war.

# of techs gifted over the course of the game. For JC it is 10 tech before you get a bonus. Check that link and select his name and you will see this in the middle somewhere.

Good you clarified that, because 10 or 20 actualy gifts would seem a lot to me!

Yep, gp pollution is a consideration. I don't worry too much about GE pollution since they are harder to get anyway and can be nice when you get one. What I do know is that I want a city - usually the cap - getting that first GS uncontested early on.

But hypothetically, while combining GE points in one city like that can be nice, one might consider building HG in another city if it can get it up faster - like it has more food and forest. Ha..we've killed the forest on Mids in Elie. Don't think we really have that situation here though. But still you can at least. passively try for HG in Elie - if you get it, great, if not, so be it.

It actually only takes 3 forests to chop the mids, so I think I'll move that worker E of Elie over to the rice paddies a turn earlier, without chopping, that way I get the rice up and running and can use that forest later for the HG.

Will play on now, let's see where it goes. Researching Currency should be fine with the 161 gold from GW.

 

[krikav]

@lymond So much posting, I can't keep up.
Scrolled back and searched for a question and found it!

I think I wouldn't spend workerturns cottaging Thebes, I think I would end up in vassalage sooner or later and don't think burocracy would play much of a role by the time cottages would be mature enough.
But I don't know the exact situation, how much pressure there is on workers etc.

 

[lymond]

Vassalage? Not sure why I would run that unless I planned to attack sooner than later.

hesh - regardless of # of techs, it still doesn't hurt to move the process as long, if it is feasible. Gifting Writing to JC at this point, especially when you know he is teching it is of no harm and only benefit

IMO - I would finish that chop E of elie. Might as well with the worker there chopping, and you will get faster granary after Mids completes. You have potential for some forest regrowth there as well. You can send two workers back toward Rice/Alex. Alex can get a grass farm too for more food.

Yep, you can go 100% next turn on Currency and then the fail gold will allow you to complete it no problem..

i might hold off on IW trades at the moment. Sal is not teching maths or alpha presently. just keep checking that. keeps value of maths higher

 

[Hesha]

hesh - regardless of # of techs, it still doesn't hurt to move the process as long, if it is feasible. Gifting Writing to JC at this point, especially when you know he is teching it is of no harm and only benefit

Noted!

IMO - I would finish that chop E of elie. Might as well with the worker there chopping, and you will get faster granary after Mids completes. You have potential for some forest regrowth there as well. You can send two workers back toward Rice/Alex. Alex can get a grass farm too for more food.

Okay, might farm the grass then! I have left the forest, moved the other two workers, one will prechop PH for a future mine and the other will prechop the new city location you told me to chop outside the BFC. Happy enough with that.

i might hold off on IW trades at the moment. Sal is not teching maths or alpha presently. just keep checking that. keeps value of maths higher

Is this a big deal, I just traded with Sal. You were spot-on, by the way, about that grasslands tile S of the mountains holding Iron.

In Pi-Ramesses, the newest city, I will build a Gran first, I assume?

 

[lymond]

Okay, might farm the grass then! I have left the forest, moved the other two workers, one will prechop PH for a future mine and the other will prechop the new city location you told me to chop outside the BFC. Happy enough with that.

Not sure I follow all this. Which grass tile, Alex? Left the forest?

Worker W of Elie can finish his chop and the chop 1N, then farm that grass tile, then maybe finish that chop outside borders.

Is this a big deal, I just traded with Sal. You were spot-on, by the way, about that grasslands tile S of the mountains holding Iron.

yes and no. First, no one has alpha yet, so i'm not concerned about ai trading. Sal clearly is not teching maths or alpha, and again IW is not an urgent need. Might as well hold off which will make maths of higher value later for trading that + Currency for MC, especially if mansa goes maths soon.

Trade Alpha for Poly to Mansa next turn...not this turn. Might as well get a little something for it, and I think Poly is worth it.

In Pi-Ramesses, the newest city, I will build a Gran first, I assume?

you assume correct

=========

edit: worker moments

Worker S of elie can move 1 step and part farm after chop this turn, then farm grass tile for Alex.

Worker E of Elie can chop, then move onto Gold tile - has road - then move 1NE or 1E of Alex and put 1t or road, then farm rice.

 

[Hesha]

Alright! Will do. In Thebes, once the failgold is collected, will I build a settler or grow a bit by putting OF/hammers into Moai for a few turns?

What will I build in Memphis after the granary is finished? A settler? Or Moai instead of Thebes? by the way, who should have that grassland hill now, Thebes or Memphis?

Will trade alpha to mansa next turn then! But not Maths to Sal. I realise Math is worth more in trades if I am the only one having it, right? Once I have traded with Mansa for MC, I can then get IW for it from Sal, right?

Just to make sure, since you're around atm: You seemed to agree with me whipping for more failgold earlier, but then said not to whip in thebes, so I'm not sure what you mean. 1 pop whip and get 161 failgold or no whip and get 124 failgold?

Build order in Elie: Mids, gran, aqu, HG

 

[lymond]

Alright! Will do. In Thebes, once the failgold is collected, will I build a settler or grow a bit by putting OF/hammers into Moai for a few turns?

[Assuming we are still on Turn 82 here]

Personally, I would start settler now in Thebes. You could keep GW this turn for more fail gold, but you will definitely start a settler there next turn.

What will I build in Memphis after the granary is finished? A settler? Or Moai instead of Thebes? by the way, who should have that grassland hill now, Thebes or Memphis?

You mean the library in Memphis? Don't know right now..you might have MC by then.

Grassland hill is irrelevant at the moment. Thebes is running 2 scientists so does not need the mine, and I like Memphis working coastal tiles for better growth at the moment.

Will trade alpha to mansa next turn then! But not Maths to Sal. I realise Math is worth more in trades if I am the only one having it, right? Once I have traded with Mansa for MC, I can then get IW for it from Sal, right?

exactamundo, but do keep checking things each turn. That info is readily available to you by comparing trades. Honestly, this is something I do every turn in my games.

Just to make sure, since you're around atm: You seemed to agree with me whipping for more failgold earlier, but then said not to whip in thebes, so I'm not sure what you mean. 1 pop whip and get 161 failgold or no whip and get 124 failgold?

hmm...I think there is some confusion here. I can't recall exactly the context of that earlier discussion regarding fail gold and whipping. However, I was referring to the OF from whipping other things can be put into wonders for fail gold. I in no way meant the whipping of wonders themselves, which are severely penalized. The only reason I would ever whip a wonder is if I absolutely wanted that wonder and was scared I would not get it.

The process of acquiring fail gold is really a passive thing. You have been building GW in Thebes really for growth and lack of anything better otherwise. We know GW will likely be finished by someone in the near future..these are very early wonders. Absolutely no reason to whip GW at all.

If you want you can just keep GW in Thebes this turn to max the fail gold from it when JC completes it next turn. But never whip wonders for the purpose of fail gold. That is just not optimal at all. And this JC business is hindsight.

Build order in Elie: Mids, gran, aqu, HG

Sounds fine to me

 

[Hesha]

Okay! Wasn't sure if 37gold were worth 1 pop or not.

And this JC business is hindsight.

What do you mean?

 

[lymond]

Okay! Wasn't sure if 37gold were worth 1 pop or not.

What do you mean?

Well, I think you would get about that just continuing to put hammers into GW this turn, if you wish. whipping it really does nothing. Look at this way. You are putting hammers in GW this turn as it is not complete (it is still a selectable item). You are going to run two scientists, but still 20H into GW this turn.

If you whip it you are going to finish it..so no fail gold. You don't want to finish it.


Hindsight meaning I think you must of played to Turn 83 to know that JC actually completes it next turn..that's all I meant. In other words, if you do not know that you would not be doing anything regardless.

It is not like one is playing the game with foreknowledge unless one just reloads all the time.

Purpose of GW here was just to get some fail gold. There is no other urgency around it or need to sacrifice city population for it.

 

[krikav]

@lymond The question, as I intrepreted it, was that TGW completed the current turn.
At that turn, the capital still had TGW in the build queue, and there was the option to do a 1pop whip of TGW, thereby trading 1 pop for some more failgold.

If that was indeed the question, my answer is that no, it aint worth it. Just take the failgold you get.

 

[Hesha]

No, no, you misunderstand me. It really doesn't work like you seem to think.

Correct, I did play past Turn 82, but it wasn't hindsight.

In turn 83 you get the message "Julius Caesar has completed the Great Wall" - but it's still in your queue and you can still whip, even though you've already "lost" the race. This turn I also got the message to whip.

In turn 84 you get the message that you cannot continue to build the wonder and cash out on your fail gold.

The difference between whipping for 1 pop in turn 83 or just letting the production continue, was exactly 37 failgold. That's what I was trying to say. I tested it. If I just keep building GW, I get 124. If I whip, I get 161. There is no hind sight involved, you get the message that someone else built the wonder one turn before you can no longer work on the wonder and get the failgold.

EDIT: Yes, @krikav got what I meant.

 

[lymond]

yeah..I mean I see what hesh is saying. Actually, this turn it would be 2pop ..next turn1 pop. The game applies the whip production immediately to the GW which is converted to gold later. But still really not a good trade off or optimal. You sacrifice the hard earned growth in lower food Thebes and delay the ability to run two scientists now. It's just not worth it.

edit...yeah, i see that if you played to Turn 83 then you now know JC built it and it is in queue still like krikav said so you can 1 pop it to get a little more gold. Like krikav, I don't like it. I don't like the trade off here, especially considering thebes food and the fact that you really need to run 2 scientists there.

but you are thinking

 

[Hesha]

yeah..I mean I see what hesh is saying. Actually, this turn it would be 2pop ..next turn1 pop. The game applies the whip production immediately to the GW which is converted to gold later. But still really not a good trade off or optimal. You sacrifice the hard earned growth in lower food Thebes and delay the ability to run two scientists now. It's just not worth it.

Yeah, it takes 3 turns to get back to size 5. Which I thought to be okay, but I'll accept if you feel it's not worth it.

 

[lymond]

yep, but that delay is less of something else and delaying a new settler. you do have to factor in everything. Also the fact that whipping wonders is penalized ..tit for tat so to speak. Yeah you get a little more gold now, but the fact that you get ..what ..112 gold or so just switching to settler on Turn 82 is still very nice. And that is really what fail gold is about..just passively getting some nice gold here and there.

If I was aggressive about maxxing fail gold, i would even use chops for it and build it in several cities over time.

Well, throwing the whole JC hindsight business out the window now..keep in mind that on Turn 83 ..hypothetically speaking here..as you will not do this..but the only reason you can whip GW then is that it is already in the queue. So you would not keep it in the queue. You would 1pop whip and then choose something else. The whip hammers are applied directly ..no need to keep it in queue after as that wastes the city's base hammers that turn.

(on Turn 83 it is like a ghost item..ha...it is there in thebes but really not there...the whip applies directly, but the city's base hammers do nothing to it as it is really not there)

 

[Hesha]

Trade Alpha for Poly to Mansa next turn...not this turn. Might as well get a little something for it, and I think Poly is worth it.

Just one question about this: Wouldn't that lead to wild tech exchange between all AIs and reduce our options of trading?

 

[lymond]

Well, again, the idea is not to overthink it here. This is the facts we know:

1) Mansa is most definitely teching Alpha
2) Mansa is going to get alpha very soon
3) Mansa will not trade IW for Alpha on Turn 82 but he will trade it for X+Y dinky techs

So no, my discussion earlier was just about stalling mansa having Alpha as long as you can, but he's gonna get it anyway, so might as well get a little something out of it or just gift it to him. I think Poly is worth it since at turn 83 its about an equal trade as he is so close to finishing Alpha at this point.

Do you see what I'm saying here?

As to wild trading, that is not likely to happen in the short term. Mansa is way ahead of the other guys anyway. I'm speaking more in general terms. And on higher levels it is likely Mansa who has Alpha before you. I'm really just 'playing to the level" right now.

I don't want to over-complicate this for you. I'm really just trying to enable you to "see" things in terms of trading techs. How to gauge when to trade a tech or not as opposed to just trading stuff around cause you can.

 

[lymond]

I will expand on another related tip here, that I've only alluded to so far, and that is the subject of Trade Caps and trading for dinky techs.

You may have noticed that I've not had you trade for a tech like Hunting. There's a good reason for this, and it is not just so we can still build warriors. Likewise, I would generally not trade for small techs I don't have or have not needed previously like fishing or archery or mysticism. The reason is Trade Caps. Each AI has a trade cap (see "know your enemy" again) and those caps vary among the leader and by difficulty level. When you hit those caps you start seeing "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced" and they will not trade with you for a while.

So the idea here is to avoid trading for things that ..well..you can tech yourself in 1 turn at this point if you really needed them. Because each of these little techs adds to the counter to the trade cap. You push off that trade cap longer so you can always trade for the really important stuff.

 

[Hesha]

Thank you, that is really good to know!

So, I've played on a bit, thanks to Representation my research in Currency was finished a turn sooner and coincided with the completion of the Lib in Memphis. I've checked with Mansa, what he will give me for Maths+Currency, and this is his offer:

Spoiler :

Pretty generous of old Mansa, but I assume, after what you just told me about not trading small techs, I will respond "No thanks!" and just take MC plus whatever money he has, as that will still be a super "fair" deal, if I let him keep Med and Priesthood?

Here's the overview, turn 82:

Spoiler :

With currency finished, my first impulse would be to research Aesthetics, as I assume that I will want the GL rather sooner than later?

I've just remembered that you had told me to switch production around between settler and buildings in some city, to allow for growth, I think it was Heliopolis... I messed that up, but I'll just have to suck it up. I've replayed these few turns a couple of times now, it'd drive me demented to do it again I've just checked, if I move the citizen in Heliopolis from the cottage to the GH mine, the settler will finish in 1t instead of 2t, but I will lose 3C of course, is that worth it?

Settler in Thebes will get chopped into from PH in 3t, which will probably nearly finish production.

Memphis just finished the libarary, I had lined up Moai, but since I can get MC now from Mansa, I will change that to forge in order to go for Colossus. Should I appoint Scientists here?

Alex and Pi-Ramesses are pretty straightforward, I guess Alex could really use that GL farm, so after rice is farmed, I will build that. The road E of rice, has been built in order not to waste worker turns, as you explained to me, but now I will actually benefit from it on the way back! Should I chop/mine that grassland hill to help production in one of the cities?

Next settler from Heliopolis I will plant in the newly chopped location, N of Wheat. The following one from Thebes I will probably send to the new clam location, provided Alex is big enough to whip a WB as you had said a while back. If not, I might use the spot E of SW cow instead. NW horses will be the next one after that then.

To summarise the immediate goals for the time being:
- fully settle the continent, prioritising coastal locations
- build Colossus in Memphis
- build HG in Elie

I guess Temple of Artemis is both unrealistic and lower priority than Colossus, right?
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