[BTS] Shadow Game - Monarch / Ramesses
- Thread starter Hesha
- Start date
Julius also gets 4EP per turn, and he is only putting 1 per turn on you.
From this we can conclude that he knows some other AI.
That would lead me to put higher priority on alfabet, as that could enable some good technology trading!
From this we can conclude that he knows some other AI.
That would lead me to put higher priority on alfabet, as that could enable some good technology trading!
Turn 64:
First Axeman is on the way to the NW to smite the pesky Archer there. Almost done with the LH in Heliopolis, will follow up with a Granary, then Lib. Thebes working on Settler, then Granary, then Lib. Should I have that worker chop the Forest 2W of Thebes? Memphis is building the Granary, then Lib. Elephantine is working on Mids, I guess I will chop everything to make it happen ASAP? The new Settler from Thebes will go to Goldcow, found there.
What should my other two workers do? Prepare goldcow by roading cow and gold or should they both chop towards the Mids?
Spoiler :
First Axeman is on the way to the NW to smite the pesky Archer there. Almost done with the LH in Heliopolis, will follow up with a Granary, then Lib. Thebes working on Settler, then Granary, then Lib. Should I have that worker chop the Forest 2W of Thebes? Memphis is building the Granary, then Lib. Elephantine is working on Mids, I guess I will chop everything to make it happen ASAP? The new Settler from Thebes will go to Goldcow, found there.
What should my other two workers do? Prepare goldcow by roading cow and gold or should they both chop towards the Mids?
Lighthouse in Heliopolis should have been 1-pop whipped as soon as it came over 30/60.
But no problem.
I would now aim to grow to pop4 as soon as possible and 2pop whip a granary, rather working 2F2C coast after lighthouse, than 1F3H grassland hill.
Thebes looks like it's extremly close to grow to pop5, you should make that growth before continuing settler.
I think I would go library before granary, to be able to resume teching quicker, else you will build up a too large cache of gold.
All 3 forests that are around capital, I would chop into granary and/or library.
I would absolutely prioritize getting cows and gold up sooner, rather than pre-chopping pyramids.
Is the monument done in stone-city?
But no problem.
I would now aim to grow to pop4 as soon as possible and 2pop whip a granary, rather working 2F2C coast after lighthouse, than 1F3H grassland hill.
Thebes looks like it's extremly close to grow to pop5, you should make that growth before continuing settler.
I think I would go library before granary, to be able to resume teching quicker, else you will build up a too large cache of gold.
All 3 forests that are around capital, I would chop into granary and/or library.
I would absolutely prioritize getting cows and gold up sooner, rather than pre-chopping pyramids.
Is the monument done in stone-city?
Turn 66:
Heliopolis: Whipped LH last turn, now have overflow on Granary, working only sea tiles (will swap one to river cottage next turn).
Thebes: Whipped settler (2 pop), as city was unhappy at size 5 and will grow back again quickly, anyways, plus there's only 3 good tiles to work anyway, also chopping remove forest down south. Next build lib.
Memphis: Whipped granary last turn, building lib now, will whip when possible.
Elephantine: Building mids, once the cows and gold are roaded, I will start chopping everything in the BFC. Working the PHF atm, but will swap to cows once in range (8t) (or should I wait until improved?)
Next settler will found Goldcow, workers are already roading.
Will meet Saladin next turn. Intesting thing: Only Thebes has foreign trade routes, all other cities are still only using domestic destinations. How come?
Also, will I build another settler in Thebes after Lib? and if so, where will I found the next city? SW, in reach of cows and wheat? That or rice/spice seem like the last available decent locations to me.
Spoiler :
Heliopolis: Whipped LH last turn, now have overflow on Granary, working only sea tiles (will swap one to river cottage next turn).
Thebes: Whipped settler (2 pop), as city was unhappy at size 5 and will grow back again quickly, anyways, plus there's only 3 good tiles to work anyway, also chopping remove forest down south. Next build lib.
Memphis: Whipped granary last turn, building lib now, will whip when possible.
Elephantine: Building mids, once the cows and gold are roaded, I will start chopping everything in the BFC. Working the PHF atm, but will swap to cows once in range (8t) (or should I wait until improved?)
Next settler will found Goldcow, workers are already roading.
Will meet Saladin next turn. Intesting thing: Only Thebes has foreign trade routes, all other cities are still only using domestic destinations. How come?
Also, will I build another settler in Thebes after Lib? and if so, where will I found the next city? SW, in reach of cows and wheat? That or rice/spice seem like the last available decent locations to me.
"Only Thebes has foreign trade routes, all other cities are still only using domestic destinations. How come?"
Likely the city that Thebes has connection with, is not connected to Rome.
Don't wait until cows are improved, it's a decent tile with 3F anyway and stone city will have troubles growing, so getting that process started is good.
I would try to grow Thebes now, aiming to reach max pop, stagnate on settler whenever the city is unhappy.
Next settler should probably take rice/spice spot.
We are reaching a normal time when one starts to run two scientists in the capital, but I'm not sure it's best here, as we are going for pyramids, it might be more beneficial to wait for representation before starting to run specialists.
Likely the city that Thebes has connection with, is not connected to Rome.
Don't wait until cows are improved, it's a decent tile with 3F anyway and stone city will have troubles growing, so getting that process started is good.
I would try to grow Thebes now, aiming to reach max pop, stagnate on settler whenever the city is unhappy.
Next settler should probably take rice/spice spot.
We are reaching a normal time when one starts to run two scientists in the capital, but I'm not sure it's best here, as we are going for pyramids, it might be more beneficial to wait for representation before starting to run specialists.
Sorry, do you mean to grow the city to the point where I have an unproductive red citizen and then stagnate on settler production? Also, should I garrison those cities to allow for one more pop?
Turn 70:
Killed the archer up north, should now be in a position to fogbust the entire island in a few turns. Just settled Alexandria - what should I build there first? Obelisk, so I can get the rice? Would someone confirm the exact location for the next city? With the GLH should I not rather go for the coastal position in the SW than the rice/spice?
Spoiler :
Killed the archer up north, should now be in a position to fogbust the entire island in a few turns. Just settled Alexandria - what should I build there first? Obelisk, so I can get the rice? Would someone confirm the exact location for the next city? With the GLH should I not rather go for the coastal position in the SW than the rice/spice?
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Hesh - No I meant it exactly as I wrote it. Do not chop away the 2F1H forest as it is your best tile presently. Think about it...what will that city work for 10 turns
I indicated switching the citizen to 3H tile for 2t on monument only or 1t if you start it immediately. This means when you finish chopping the 3h tile the monument is done. But work 2F tile otherwise.
I would just set Alpha as a placeholder for now. If you meet another AI I would actually tech Alpha on this level next. You are running binary science for a while so it is not like you are committed to alpha. You are just banking gold.
I indicated switching the citizen to 3H tile for 2t on monument only or 1t if you start it immediately. This means when you finish chopping the 3h tile the monument is done. But work 2F tile otherwise.
I would just set Alpha as a placeholder for now. If you meet another AI I would actually tech Alpha on this level next. You are running binary science for a while so it is not like you are committed to alpha. You are just banking gold.
Sorry, I must have totally misread what you had said. I have been working the PHF this whole time, better than nothing I guess. I have yet to get it through my tick skull that food > hammers.
Do you mean another AI like Saladin, whom I have met, or another third AI in addition to Saladin and Caesar?
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Yeah both krikav and I said you’d only work 3f tile temporarily with idea of really fast monument with chop and extra hammers from that tile for 2 turns. But you still want that city mostly growing and that 2F1H was best. Well the city had crap tiles obviously but you know.
I think or hope by now that it is starting to register that we do these little micro things for specific purposes or reasons.
Did not realize that you met Sal. Alpha it is and I’d probably plan on finishing at some point when you have enough gold and a library at least in Thebes.
To clarify Alpha has far less value if you only know one AI as, unless Mansa or Friendly, it is really hard to trade anything.
I think or hope by now that it is starting to register that we do these little micro things for specific purposes or reasons.
Did not realize that you met Sal. Alpha it is and I’d probably plan on finishing at some point when you have enough gold and a library at least in Thebes.
To clarify Alpha has far less value if you only know one AI as, unless Mansa or Friendly, it is really hard to trade anything.
Chopping the 2F1H tile and leaving the 3H tile instead was probably a tad bit less optimal, but no big deal. No problem with just working the 3H tile while building pyramids either while waiting for borderpop.
I admire @lymonds tenacity when it comes to explaining all the miniscule details.
And @Hesha don't worry if you don't grasp everything, what is important is that you are starting to think and reason around all the descisions.
I admire @lymonds tenacity when it comes to explaining all the miniscule details.
And @Hesha don't worry if you don't grasp everything, what is important is that you are starting to think and reason around all the descisions.
Too bad the screenshots in this guide has broken down. 
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/vocum-sineratio-the-whip.193659/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/vocum-sineratio-the-whip.193659/
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yeah, Elie is not a big deal certainly since it is all crap tiles now, but the idea was to maintain some growth for most of the duration of that 10 border pop so that the city does grow nicely once cows are improved. It does take time to grasp these things. We've been playing for years and still learn new things.
Yep, there is a whip penalty on Turn 0 of production so do not whip on Turn 0 unless absolute emergency. There is a lot to learn about whipping and whip overflow and stuff and it will take time. Like the fact that you are turning food into hammers. We'll get there. I have some basic stuff laid out in this link to several discussions I was having with new players..you may want to read them when you are able (links within a link):
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673
Yep, there is a whip penalty on Turn 0 of production so do not whip on Turn 0 unless absolute emergency. There is a lot to learn about whipping and whip overflow and stuff and it will take time. Like the fact that you are turning food into hammers. We'll get there. I have some basic stuff laid out in this link to several discussions I was having with new players..you may want to read them when you are able (links within a link):
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673
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okay..couple of other notes since i've looked at the save:
1) I really have to point out to you that those roads/roading near Alex is really really bad - they serve no purpose. This is falling back to noob practices. Cows should be improved and then gold. The worker that was near Elie should be prechopping around that city in expectation of the border pop, then improve cows. I think I would have kept the 1st worker back near Thebes area. There are a couple of forests to chop. (but not necessarily bad either to have the workers focus on getting new cities running faster and they can help chop for mids)
2) I see you moving that warrior back to Thebes which is good..it needs him now to grow. But note that 1 dark tile near him..the axe can take care of that for now moving 1S
3) Build a warrior now in Memphis..it needs it to grow
what did you whip in Thebes?
4) Helio can 2pop gran next turn into settler..then balance growth/happy to getting gold online.
5) Trade a cow or a clam to JC now or both. Starts a little diplo boosting with him. Over time resource trades give up to a +2 diplo bonus. Health is not an issue at the moment and you will have more of those resources later anyway
Another little concept to learn is EP focus. Generally when you meet AIs you want to focus your EPs on one good techer. You can do this in the espionage screen by setting the weight to 1 on a particular leader. You will learn who the good techers are like most FIN leaders and especially Mansa. Sal and JC are ok and about even in my experience. I would choose JC maybe now. Note: In my tests, I met someone else who is very special and who I would focus EPs on immediately..sorry to spoil that but for learning I wanted to mention it..he's actually very close but your but headed away from him...although in my game he had sent a wb my way so that is how I met him originallly
Anyway, EP focus on one individual will eventually let you see what they are teching which is very helpful in planning and determining what you tech and what you trade
I can't freakin' shut up
...someone stick a cork in me
1) I really have to point out to you that those roads/roading near Alex is really really bad - they serve no purpose. This is falling back to noob practices. Cows should be improved and then gold. The worker that was near Elie should be prechopping around that city in expectation of the border pop, then improve cows. I think I would have kept the 1st worker back near Thebes area. There are a couple of forests to chop. (but not necessarily bad either to have the workers focus on getting new cities running faster and they can help chop for mids)
2) I see you moving that warrior back to Thebes which is good..it needs him now to grow. But note that 1 dark tile near him..the axe can take care of that for now moving 1S
3) Build a warrior now in Memphis..it needs it to grow
what did you whip in Thebes?
4) Helio can 2pop gran next turn into settler..then balance growth/happy to getting gold online.
5) Trade a cow or a clam to JC now or both. Starts a little diplo boosting with him. Over time resource trades give up to a +2 diplo bonus. Health is not an issue at the moment and you will have more of those resources later anyway
Another little concept to learn is EP focus. Generally when you meet AIs you want to focus your EPs on one good techer. You can do this in the espionage screen by setting the weight to 1 on a particular leader. You will learn who the good techers are like most FIN leaders and especially Mansa. Sal and JC are ok and about even in my experience. I would choose JC maybe now. Note: In my tests, I met someone else who is very special and who I would focus EPs on immediately..sorry to spoil that but for learning I wanted to mention it..he's actually very close but your but headed away from him...although in my game he had sent a wb my way so that is how I met him originallly
Anyway, EP focus on one individual will eventually let you see what they are teching which is very helpful in planning and determining what you tech and what you trade
I admire @lymonds tenacity when it comes to explaining all the miniscule details.
I can't freakin' shut up
...someone stick a cork in me
Last edited:
Thanks for the link and for the feedback.
1) I had nothing else to do at the time (Alexandria wasn't founded yet) and when I asked Krikav, he said gold/cows was more important than prechopping. So I did what I could towards those resources. I realised that connecting the cows was stupid, because I had already river-connected the cows in thebes, but connecting gold seemed like a good idea to raise pop caps.
I still hadn't realised that once you start chopping you just chop everything, I thought this was reserved to especially urgent projects. But I guess what you're saying is that everything should be built asap, so chop until there's no forests left?
I think what I'm struggling with is that I know what you want me to do on a very detailed level (i.e. if I read it correctly), but I haven't a bloody clue about the larger context, so it's like learning it off by heart, not understanding, if you know what I mean... not sure how I can learn that big picture stuff...
Hmmm... I'm really bummed out by all the mistakes I make, I think I have to look into another way of learning this game. I feel in order to do everything correctly, I would really have to play one turn per post and have you mircomanage every move I make, because as soon as I do more than that, I seem to go *stupid* (apparently the word I wanted to use is offensive) But I could do this for 100 turns and still not take much away from it, because half the time I really don't know/understand why you want me to do x instead of y.
This is not your fault, please don't misunderstand this as criticism.
I've always head a hard time from following detailed instructions and always did better figuring things out along general guidelines. I'm trying to piece those general guidelines together but I think I'm failing at this...
1) I had nothing else to do at the time (Alexandria wasn't founded yet) and when I asked Krikav, he said gold/cows was more important than prechopping. So I did what I could towards those resources. I realised that connecting the cows was stupid, because I had already river-connected the cows in thebes, but connecting gold seemed like a good idea to raise pop caps.
I still hadn't realised that once you start chopping you just chop everything, I thought this was reserved to especially urgent projects. But I guess what you're saying is that everything should be built asap, so chop until there's no forests left?
I think what I'm struggling with is that I know what you want me to do on a very detailed level (i.e. if I read it correctly), but I haven't a bloody clue about the larger context, so it's like learning it off by heart, not understanding, if you know what I mean... not sure how I can learn that big picture stuff...
Hmmm... I'm really bummed out by all the mistakes I make, I think I have to look into another way of learning this game. I feel in order to do everything correctly, I would really have to play one turn per post and have you mircomanage every move I make, because as soon as I do more than that, I seem to go *stupid* (apparently the word I wanted to use is offensive)
But I could do this for 100 turns and still not take much away from it, because half the time I really don't know/understand why you want me to do x instead of y.This is not your fault, please don't misunderstand this as criticism.
I've always head a hard time from following detailed instructions and always did better figuring things out along general guidelines. I'm trying to piece those general guidelines together but I think I'm failing at this...
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your most welcome
1) I had nothing else to do at the time (Alexandria wasn't founded yet) and when I asked Krikav, he said gold/cows was more important than prechopping. So I did what I could towards those resources. I realised that connecting the cows was stupid, because I had already river-connected the cows in thebes, but connecting gold seemed like a good idea to raise pop caps.
I still hadn't realised that once you start chopping you just chop everything, I thought this was reserved to especially urgent projects. But I guess what you're saying is that everything should be built asap, so chop until there's no forests left?
I think what I'm struggling with is that I know what you want me to do on a very detailed level (i.e. if I read it correctly), but I haven't a bloody clue about the larger context, so it's like learning it off by heart, not understanding, if you know what I mean... not sure how I can learn that big picture stuff...
Hmmm... I'm really bummed out by all the mistakes I make, I think I have to look into another way of learning this game. I feel in order to do everything correctly, I would really have to play one turn per post and have you mircomanage every move I make, because as soon as I do more than that, I seem to go *stupid* (apparently the word I wanted to use is offensive)
This is not your fault, please don't misunderstand this as criticism.
I've always head a hard time from following detailed instructions and always did better figuring things out along general guidelines. I'm trying to piece those general guidelines together but I think I'm failing at this...
oh no no ..
..sorry if I sound like I'm scolding...it is more to emphasize key points but I don't mean to sound harsh. No, you are doing really great here and learning a lot. You don't have to change anything. This is one of the better shadow games I've been involved in in some time. Stay positive! This is all friendly fun here.The larger context will come. Again, we are just focused on the finer details right now of the early game. Eventually all these little things will click with you and you can apply them to any game in the future.
Anyway, part of this is my fault not really considering the new city at the time since my focus was on Elie. I lose track myself sometimes since I'm not actually playing the game
So yeah, if a worker has moved toward the cow but Alex not settled yet, then a road on cow is okay. The road on Gold is not needed though at all. The gold is connected via the river so you can just mine it immediately. But again, if Alex was just settled and the worker was on top of that gold - before it was settled - to be ready to mine then putting a turn into it is fine. But this turn it should start the gold mine. (I realize Alex was just settled this turn as there are no hammers in the Obelisk)
I would start a granary first in Alex though.
