Shoshone

[Funak]

I bet that if you find Atlantis hut, you can directly upgrade to giant death robot (but cannot heal since you don't get uranium).

I know you're kidding, but I've seen Cavalry (back when they were melee) in early medieval era, and that's honestly just terrible.

I mean I play mostly one continent maps, so I really rarely run into these extremes. but getting a horseman and having it upgrade to knight in ancient era is quite possible.

 

[PapaRockett]

I know you're kidding, but I've seen Cavalry (back when they were melee) in early medieval era, and that's honestly just terrible.

I mean I play mostly one continent maps, so I really rarely run into these extremes. but getting a horseman and having it upgrade to knight in ancient era is quite possible.

And it's bloody brilliant when that happens. Bye bye barbarians!

 

[Mad Madigan]

The best lucky hut I ever got was on a random small island on a Continents+ map. I had a newly upgraded Knight grab it that got upgraded to a Lancer in early Medieval period (~1200 AD). They helped me gloriously ransack my opponents for several centuries before anyone could tech up to level the playing field. Fun times!

 

[CrazyG]

I wonder if there is a way to limit the weapon upgrades to a certain date (like how faith ruins are done)

 

[Txurce]

I wonder if there is a way to limit the weapon upgrades to a certain date (like how faith ruins are done)

How late would you want it -- Classical? Near Engineering? There aren't many ruins left by then.

Not that I would be in favor of either of those. It boggles my mind that the unchanged Shoshone UU has suddenly become problematic. (I'm not saying this specifically to you, CG.)

 

[CrazyG]

How late would you want it -- Classical? Near Engineering? There aren't many ruins left by then.

Not that I would be in favor of either of those. It boggles my mind that the unchanged Shoshone UU has suddenly become problematic.

I'm not sure I want it either, right now all I'm doing is wondering. I wouldn't put it that late (if it were change at all), more like turn 20 or 30, to let other civs get closer to horsemen or at least spearmen

I do see the argument for the turn 5 composite bowmen being a little bit much, they are fast, ranged, and basically invincible for a while. But not all the way until classical by any means, horsemen vs comp bowmen is a fair fight. On the other hand, it requires a UU and a ruin, its tough to get more than 2; the opportunity cost is pretty high

 

[Txurce]

I'm not sure I want it either, right now all I'm doing is wondering. I wouldn't put it that late (if it were change at all), more like turn 20 or 30, to let other civs get closer to horsemen or at least spearmen

I do see the argument for the turn 5 composite bowmen being a little bit much, they are fast, ranged, and basically invincible for a while. But not all the way until classical by any means, horsemen vs comp bowmen is a fair fight. On the other hand, it requires a UU and a ruin, its tough to get more than 2; the opportunity cost is pretty high

I played them recently and won a SV going away going a wide-ish Tradition. My usual strategy is to go with 3 Pathfinders, pop about 5 ruins for traditional goodies, then try to get all 3 upgraded. This involves getting Fishing early. In that game they played a key defensive role, but I do recall a agame where ONE upgraded Pathfinder (plus riffraff) helped me take Addis Ababa not long after discovering that zealot was my next-door neighbor. That felt a bit unfair, but it doesn't work every time.

 

[CrazyG]

I played them recently and won a SV going away going a wide-ish Tradition. My usual strategy is to go with 3 Pathfinders, pop about 5 ruins for traditional goodies, then try to get all 3 upgraded. This involves getting Fishing early. In that game they played a key defensive role, but I do recall a agame where ONE upgraded Pathfinder (plus riffraff) helped me take Addis Ababa not long after discovering that zealot was my next-door neighbor. That felt a bit unfair, but it doesn't work every time.

That is pretty much what I do (except i do tall-ish progress).

Comp bow aggression has worked every time I tried it

 

[tu_79]

It's a single unit which gets out of control for a limited time, in very rare occasions. I say just enjoy it when it happens.

 

[CrazyG]

Currently if you get a cultural ruin with a comp bow, you still get to choose your promotion but you don't get the extra yields. Is that working as intended?

 

[Gazebo]

Currently if you get a cultural ruin with a comp bow, you still get to choose your promotion but you don't get the extra yields. Is that working as intended?

Yes it is for pathfinders only

 

[CrazyG]

Yes it is for pathfinders only

Thanks for the response

 

[Zanteogo]

It's a single unit which gets out of control for a limited time, in very rare occasions. I say just enjoy it when it happens.

It's not very rare with the Shoshone. Because their UU gets to pick their reward you will have a fairly high chance of actually getting two of these before anyone else even has regular archers yet. It's enough to wipe out at least one of your neighbors if not two. Plus the units will be at a really high level from doing this (so even when the rest of the world catches up, you still have a couple +1 range, double attack ranged units)

If you play on a slower game speed the issue is compounded.

 

[tu_79]

It's not very rare with the Shoshone. Because their UU gets to pick their reward you will have a fairly high chance of actually getting two of these before anyone else even has regular archers yet. It's enough to wipe out at least one of your neighbors if not two. Plus the units will be at a really high level from doing this (so even when the rest of the world catches up, you still have a couple +1 range, double attack ranged units)

If you play on a slower game speed the issue is compounded.

I consider that a feature of Shoshone. Without that they aren't so great. And with the change to increased barb activity, it's even more difficult to have your pathfinders finding things.

Also, if you are busy fighting capitals, you aren't exploring, maybe missing some goody huts, so it's a bit of a trade off.

 

[Zanteogo]

They are easily one of the best civs currently even without the comp bow cheese. The increased boarder on city creation and a pretty good multi use UI alone puts them high up.

It's cheese and it really should be fixed. (Or heck, make the AI smart enough to do this and see how the players react when they lose their capital on turn 20)

 

[CrazyG]

It's not very rare with the Shoshone. Because their UU gets to pick their reward you will have a fairly high chance of actually getting two of these before anyone else even has regular archers yet. It's enough to wipe out at least one of your neighbors if not two. Plus the units will be at a really high level from doing this (so even when the rest of the world catches up, you still have a couple +1 range, double attack ranged units)

If you play on a slower game speed the issue is compounded.

Spamming experience on slower speeds by attacking cities with ranged units might be an issue, but its not unique to shoshone compbowmen by any means.

Do you have a suggestion to remedy the alleged problem? The pathfinder is pretty weak outside of the comp bowmen upgrade; I don't think it would be good to only let it promote into an archer.

 

[tu_79]

(Or heck, make the AI smart enough to do this and see how the players react when they lose their capital on turn 20)

Sounds like a deal. Can Shoshone AI prioritize unit upgrade? Even if they don't go after your capital, it's hurting them not getting their comp. bowmen.

 

[Zanteogo]

Spamming experience on slower speeds by attacking cities with ranged units might be an issue, but its not unique to shoshone compbowmen by any means.

Do you have a suggestion to remedy the alleged problem? The pathfinder is pretty weak outside of the comp bowmen upgrade; I don't think it would be good to only let it promote into an archer.

If it were up to me I would remove the pathfinder all together and allow any combat unit to take the goodie huts and get the options. (For the Shoshone only of course) I would then return the Comanche Raiders to them as their UU. After the first 1/20 of the game most of the huts are gone so it not like this would be overpowering.

 

[Zanteogo]

Sounds like a deal. Can Shoshone AI prioritize unit upgrade? Even if they don't go after your capital, it's hurting them not getting their comp. bowmen.

It would be interesting anyways. If it's going to remain the same this should be done reguardless. Currently the UU's main strength is not being it's self and upgrading. (Which I think is ridiculous, but if we're not changing this fact...)

 

[CrazyG]

If it were up to me I would remove the pathfinder all together and allow any combat unit to take the goodie huts and get the options. (For the Shoshone only of course) I would then return the Comanche Raiders to them as their UU. After the first 1/20 of the game most of the huts are gone so it not like this would be overpowering.

It would be extremely overpowering. Maps with island chains or peninsulas do see ruins that stick around, even on Pangea I am sometimes able to guard a ruin until later so I grab faith from it. If I get a horseman to a ruin I just instantly win. Early knights are way more OP than an early composite bowmen is