Shoshone

[Zanteogo]

It would be extremely overpowering. Maps with island chains or peninsulas do see ruins that stick around, even on Pangea I am sometimes able to guard a ruin until later so I grab faith from it. If I get a horseman to a ruin I just instantly win. Early knights are way more OP than an early composite bowmen is

Then perhaps the ruin upgrade unit option needs to be removed? It's a random crap shoot is with a small chance of happening for every other civ anyways.

Of course the other option is just make pathfinders upgrade into something else like archers or pikemen. A solution I would be ok with but it appears a few people don't agree.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

the ruin upgrade unit option needs to be removed

 

[Txurce]

the ruin upgrade unit option needs to be removed

Couldn't agree less. It's part of what makes the Shoshone fun. Although I realize that we are now having a plague of suddenly-OP units that have always been there.

 

[Funak]

Couldn't agree less. It's part of what makes the Shoshone fun. Although I realize that we are now having a plague of suddenly-OP units that have always been there.

Removed is boring, replaced is fun.

What could be an effect that Shoshone could make use of to increase their fun? (it would of course replace the upgrade for all ruins, not just Shoshone)
Maybe get a free scout?

 

[Txurce]

Removed is boring, replaced is fun.

What could be an effect that Shoshone could make use of to increase their fun? (it would of course replace the upgrade for all ruins, not just Shoshone)
Maybe get a free scout?

Upgrades are fun, although also sometimes game-warping on a modest level. But a free scout is definitely fun in the early game. And a free Pathfinder arguably would be even stronger than an upgraded one.

 

[Funak]

Upgrades are fun, although also sometimes game-warping on a modest level. But a free scout is definitely fun in the early game. And a free Pathfinder arguably would be even stronger than an upgraded one.

Upgrades are just so erratic. It's not hard to get a horseman up before all ruins are gone, and a getting a horseman upgraded to a knight in ancient era is just insane. I mean yeah I admit the upgrade is fun to see, but it is also really random.
I mean I remember a year ago when someone was really mad about his scouts upgrading to archers and getting killed because archers have less CS.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't see why removing it as a feature would be on the table. The example of the early knight happened how many times? In how many hundreds or thousands of games? I feel like there is already some limit to it (I've never seen the opportunity to turn a Shoshone comp bow into a crossbow). Im still not convinced that shosho comp bows are that much stronger than chariots or slingers when you factor the ruin requirement.

Upgrades are just so erratic. It's not hard to get a horseman up before all ruins are gone, and a getting a horseman upgraded to a knight in ancient era is just insane. I mean yeah I admit the upgrade is fun to see, but it is also really random.

I'm curious how many games have you played, and how many times did that happen? I got a crossbow into a musket once, but other than that I've only upgraded into spears or archers (or UUs)

Also, can this alleged issue be solved without just removing the feature? I've never seen the option for shosho comp bows to upgrade into crossbows so it seems like there must be some mechanic available to limit this already.

Couldn't agree less. It's part of what makes the Shoshone fun. Although I realize that we are now having a plague of suddenly-OP units that have always been there

Just because something hasn't been changed in a while doesn't mean the "sudden OP-ness" is wrong, see Denmark recently. I would guess that some people just avoid abusing broken stuff when they find it rather than point it out. Its also a complex game with a lot of moving parts, its easy for something to go unnoticed for a while. I found the (now fixed) very broken transcendence rush thing by complete accident

 

[Txurce]

Just because something hasn't been changed in a while doesn't mean the "sudden OP-ness" is wrong, see Denmark recently. I would guess that some people just avoid abusing broken stuff when they find it rather than point it out. Its also a complex game with a lot of moving parts, its easy for something to go unnoticed for a while. I found the (now fixed) very broken transcendence rush thing by complete accident

When something iconic like Pathfinder upgrades that has been there since the beginning of time is suddenly OP, I do not accept that it went unnoticed for any reason, let alone complexity.

 

[CrazyG]

When something iconic like Pathfinder upgrades that has been there since the beginning of time is suddenly OP, I do not accept that it went unnoticed for any reason, let alone complexity.

Undiscussed does not mean unnoticed, myself and I'm sure others were well aware of its power for a long time

 

[Funak]

I don't see why removing it as a feature would be on the table. The example of the early knight happened how many times? In how many hundreds or thousands of games? I feel like there is already some limit to it (I've never seen the opportunity to turn a Shoshone comp bow into a crossbow). Im still not convinced that shosho comp bows are that much stronger than chariots or slingers when you factor the ruin requirement.


I'm curious how many games have you played, and how many times did that happen? I got a crossbow into a musket once, but other than that I've only upgraded into spears or archers (or UUs)

Also, can this alleged issue be solved without just removing the feature? I've never seen the option for shosho comp bows to upgrade into crossbows so it seems like there must be some mechanic available to limit this already.

Just because something hasn't been changed in a while doesn't mean the "sudden OP-ness" is wrong, see Denmark recently. I would guess that some people just avoid abusing broken stuff when they find it rather than point it out. Its also a complex game with a lot of moving parts, its easy for something to go unnoticed for a while. I found the (now fixed) very broken transcendence rush thing by complete accident

Not that often, but I have some some fairly disturbing thing, especially on maps with oceans. Exploring knights turning into cavalry (back when cavalry was a melee). Also got rushed by a persian AI with a immortal pikeman like 30 turns in.

Yeah it's probably not that common, but it does happen, and the pathfinder turning into a comp bow or crossbow if you manipulate your cards right clearly is a problem.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

It happens often enough that every game I play is a risk of being rendered moot, and the risk is imho not worth the benefits. I rather have it replaced with something else, like others have suggested. Pathfinders would still be strong enough, and if this would be considered a nerf to the Shoshone, it can receive a non-gamebreaking buff somewhere else.

 

[Txurce]

Undiscussed does not mean unnoticed, myself and I'm sure others were well aware of its power for a long time

But it's only being called a serious problem now. That makes me view the seriousness of the issue with a very jaundiced eye.

It happens often enough that every game I play is a risk of being rendered moot, and the risk is imho not worth the benefits. I rather have it replaced with something else, like others have suggested. Pathfinders would still be strong enough, and if this would be considered a nerf to the Shoshone, it can receive a non-gamebreaking buff somewhere else.

It sounds like you're saying that the upgrade is game-breaking in the hands of the AI. That ought to correlate in Gazebo's AI rankings. But I think he's said that the Shoshone aren't outliers.

I would leave it alone, like others have suggested, unless there were an equivalent "fun" replacement, like Funak suggested.

 

[tu_79]

Maybe, if scouts are enhanced for scouting, we won't feel so compelled to upgrade them, or it could upgrade into explorers instead. Right now, no one wants further scouts, except for ancient.

 

[Zanteogo]

It happens often enough that every game I play is a risk of being rendered moot, and the risk is imho not worth the benefits. I rather have it replaced with something else, like others have suggested. Pathfinders would still be strong enough, and if this would be considered a nerf to the Shoshone, it can receive a non-gamebreaking buff somewhere else.

IMHO the Shoshone are crazy powerful even without the comp bow cheese.

Maybe, if scouts are enhanced for scouting, we won't feel so compelled to upgrade them, or it could upgrade into explorers instead. Right now, no one wants further scouts, except for ancient.

Agreed. The base scout (and most of the scouting line), needs a tweak. I never build more than one scout and if it doesn't get killed I sell after it's done exploring. At the very least there needs to be an in-between unit from the scout and explorer. Plus the explorer needs to be able to cross ocean from the start. There are some good ideas in the scout improving thread.

 

[CrazyG]

So Shoshone as a whole is strong, but the reintroduced Comanche riders are really underwhelming.

 

[Funak]

So Shoshone as a whole is strong, but the reintroduced Comanche riders are really underwhelming.

To be fair, they were never really balanced, I gave some suggestions for all the cav-units at the same time, skimping out on the Comanche because it wasn't really in use, and G just went with it.

I mean the unit is not bad by any means, but compared to the other cav-replacements it's kinda underwhelming.
Actually checking the stats now I can't imagine I actually suggested keeping it at the same CS/RCS as the normal cav, maybe I did, but that definitely needs to be adjusted.


Speaking of which, maybe we should switch it to a Cuirassier replacement instead? Just to spread the unique units around a bit (I mean currently we have 4 cav replacements and 1 cuirassier replacement), I actually have no idea which unit makes the most sense moving, but i'd expect it to be Comanche or Berber.

 

[Txurce]

Speaking of which, maybe we should switch it to a Cuirassier replacement instead? Just to spread the unique units around a bit (I mean currently we have 4 cav replacements and 1 cuirassier replacement), I actually have no idea which unit makes the most sense moving, but i'd expect it to be Comanche or Berber.

This is a very good idea, as long as we keep in mind that the Shoshone are already a + civ, and do not neeed more buffs.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I've been trying out the Shoshone and I think the UI could use sooner buffs than the current ones that come online with Rifling and Ecology. Especially the Ecology buff seems so late that it's irrelevant, I can't imagine tipping the scales of a game. What does everyone else think?

 

[Txurce]

I've been trying out the Shoshone and I think the UI could use sooner buffs than the current ones that come online with Rifling and Ecology. Especially the Ecology buff seems so late that it's irrelevant, I can't imagine tipping the scales of a game. What does everyone else think?

That the Shoshone are a top civ as is, and not all traits need to be strong enough to tip the scales of a game.

 

[CrazyG]

Guys the Comanche Rider is so irrelevant, if we should bump anything its that