Should Hitler be in the game?

Should Hitler be included in the game?

  • Yes, because he was "great" in a way

    Votes: 37 8.6%
  • Yes, because regardless of ideology, he did have hell of an impact on history

    Votes: 263 61.4%
  • No, because he was a mass murderer

    Votes: 39 9.1%
  • No, because it may encourage or glorify Nazism

    Votes: 89 20.8%

  • Total voters
    428
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never mind suitable...ive seen this thread pop up once a month for a long time..now..personally i would have no problem with it..but from a finacial stand point...it would be horrible for the game..many european countries have laws that would apply to the game if he is in..meaning lost sales..not to mention, as these threads show..there is enough people who would not like to see it ...to make it a pointless addition to the game...the only exception is i would like to see a hitler leader head for a WWII scenerio..but vanilla?? nope.
 
SilentDemon said:
[...] They had policies that affected some people in very detrimental ways, and for their populace it was not only beneficial but one of the quickest ways to do so. [...]

I'd so love to see you say that into the face of people who had realtives murdered in concentration camps.

Seriously, it seems to me you British are all jealous that Germany had National Socialism before you did. And now your magazines and newspapers all so jam-packed with Wehrmacht stories and Hakenkreuz images you think it can't have been so bad.
 
mtu said:
Seriously, it seems to me you British are all jealous that Germany had National Socialism before you did.
:lol:
"die inselaffen fressen fisch aus alten zeitungen, saufen schales bier und sind neidisch auf die deutschen, weil die den nationalsozialismus vor ihnen erfunden haben"
"the island apes eat fish from old newspapers, drink flat beer and are envious on the Germans, because those invented the national socialism before them " (google-trans.)
just a little joke ;) sometimes it seems realy to be so ;)

and besides: no hitler. i think that every civ should get a leader that represents it on the best ways. and that don't fit on hitler. he isn't representing germany how a leader should. in a ww2-europe-scenario ok, but not in the normal game.
 
0d1n3oo3Broad said:
"die inselaffen fressen fisch aus alten zeitungen, saufen schales bier und sind neidisch auf die deutschen, weil die den nationalsozialismus vor ihnen erfunden haben"

Dietmar Wischmeyer for the win :D
 
SilentDemon said:
"Anti-semitism, on new-fangled "racial scientific" grounds (helped by good old Christian anti-semitism on older "they killed Jesus!" grounds) was a fundamental tenet of Nazi political & government philosophy. "

Nobody is arguing that, I have simply said there are also other considerations to be had when discussing this time period and the usage of the phrase. It is not so simple as many people make it out to be.

Actually the terms are in very many ways synonymous. How many times have you seen american media refer to the insurgents in Iraq as "Terrorists," which by definition they usually are not. How many times in news and government have Iranians been referred to as "Arabs" which they technically aren't. There is a reason for oversimplification, it is propoganda and it very easily invokes nationalism.

"Yet this doesn't change the ultimate extermination policy that killed 5-6 million Jews. Unlike the Indians in America, whose children were seized, placed into boarding schools & beaten for speaking their native tongue, the Jews in the Third Reich were simply killed based on ancestry. That a few thousand "wertvolle Juden" survived doesn't mitigate this. If the Jews had "only" had their property stolen & been moved into crowded ghettos & left there at the time Germany surrendered, this discussion might be different and we'd be comparing them to Native Americans on reservations."

Agreed it doesn't change the extermination policy, but nevertheless Native Americans were on a percentage scale nearly annhiliated as a race, there are a few thousand left in the *world* today, compared to the millions that once existed and the millions of jews that still remain to carry on their legacy. This discussion shouldn't be being had you are right, Native Americans were treated equally badly if not worse in some instances. If you believe that they were only "seized, placed into boarding schools & beaten for speaking their native tongue," you have very little knowledge of this point in history. Native Americans were on many instances mutilated and decapitated, and also in many instances simply slaughtered by american armies. There are accounts of American military running around in a frenzy after battles with pieces of women and children strewn from their bodies (wearing things like uterus's on their heads) in celebration of their victory. Reservations may in many ways be compared with to concentration camps, as not only were natives starved in some instances but also forced into entire different ways of life than they had become accustomed, more so than the jews were changed culturally.

"But instead, resources were expended on killing them on an industrial scale at a time the German war effort was faltering, for no reason other than that they were Jews."

Were not Native Americans systematicly and industriously wiped out to serve westward expansion and economic / territorial gains just because they were native americans who were "there?"

"Instead of using the mass of them as slave labor, they were killed as the ideological imperative of the state to exterminate them took precedence over practical matters on a large scale."

Although it is true that the jews were considered lesser peoples and were in more instances left to die than not, they still were indeed on many accounts used for slave labor, so although your comparrsion has some merit it is not entirely accurate.

"Since an anecdote about a purportedly Jewish naval officer caught someone's fancy, I offer this in return: When Otto Ohlendorf, commander of Einsatzgruppe D (one of the mobile killing squads in Ukraine & Russia) encountered an obscure Crimean sect known as the Krimchaks, he had to ask his superiors for directions, as he could not determine whether or not they were Jewish in ancestry. The answer he received from Adolf Eichmann: to err on the side of "safety", the Krimchaks were to be executed. (They were.)"

This supports my previous claim that the term "jew" was used to describe *anyone* who had differences of opinion or ideology from the system rather than being specifically attached to all those people of which had jewish ancestory.

"I won't offer an argument for or against why the Nazis might be more or less evil than other regimes of the 20th century, but I did wish to point out that it was not simply a matter of wanting someone's land or company, and then going back to invent reasons why they were Jewish. The Nazis' fixation was on Jewish blood, and they went to great lengths to carry out their "purification" schemes in what they thought was an "appropriate" manner."

Again, nobody has denied that this was the case, and your previous statements are very suggestive over trying to prove a case that they were "more evil." All that has been done has been to examine the situation further than the simplifications that you have provided as there are many other considerations to be made.

With regard to the native Americans, I agree with you that forced assimilation was by no means the worst of what some suffered. However, I am not aware of any case where assimilated individuals of part-Indian blood were killed by government decree, whereas the Nazis went after any taint of Jewish blood and disregarded assimilation. There was no way to assimilate individuals of targeted ethnicities in Nazi Germany, save by the rare "Aryanization" certificate. I am not aware of federally sanctioned killing squads, for example, that went through towns in established states with orders to systematically kill individuals with specified percentages of native ancestry.

The 19th century Indian Wars were not accompanied by special government groups roaming through the Midwest & Eastern coast, meticulously sifting through parish records to find & kill all full-blooded or partial-Indians who might be the local mayor, or running a general store, or teaching the local schoolchildren. The US govt sought to eradicate any sovereign Native entities that interfered with land settlement and along with them any Native culture that would lead to resistance, hence the boarding schools for those children after the government decided to indoctrinate the children. The Germans went through their assimilated Jews (including many German citizens living in land continuously under control by Germany since 1871) and decided to kill them; no indoctrination schools for them where the children could be brought up as full Germans. All Jews had to be wiped out. For the exact parallel between the US to hold with Germany exactly, you'd have to show the existence of an organized effort to identify & kill all individuals of Indian ancestry in all settled states of the Union, and the US government never did this. It certainly wasn't an offense, for example, to fail to denounce your half-Indian neighbor to the New York City police so he could be taken away & killed.

Upon rereading your post, I think we are talking about slightly different things. You are pointing out that the Nazis liked to frequently label their ideological enemies as Jews, though the Nazis never labeled the Chinese (Communist or Nationalist) as "Jewish", so I think there are limits to which they would go publically. I'm pointing out that the presumption with individuals of Jewish ancestry is that they were automatically considered enemies of the state *regardless* of their ideology.

Now, I grant you, it is a staple of alternate history that if Hitler had won, he'd have gotten around to wiping out many other groups (Slavs) as well, so in the end, it might not have mattered except that certain groups were wiped out first, and they might all have been labelled "Jewish" in turn (well maybe not the "Asiatics").

As for more evil, I didn't mean to imply that, but I would say different from certain other situations, such as the Indian Wars in America, as I don't feel it is exactly the same. Pol Pot, as another example, was different in his own way (and some argue worse), and he managed to kill a significant fraction of his own countrymen, and he killed for pretty bizarre ideological reasons as well, but he didn't accomplish anything from the standpoint of foreign relations or military conquest. Therefore, I doubt we'll see anyone lobbying to play him, as he seems less interesting to many posters.

Anyway, to get back to my earlier posts, I still don't think the existing German government will allow the sale of a version of Civ with Hitler as a playable leader.
 
Simsy said:
i couldn't have said it better!

there is a limit to things - even thou it's "just a game"

people are getting to identify with the leader they are playing.
i know i was really felt closer to Alexander each time i play the greek, and went for a conquest.

i hate to think where will it put people in relation with Hitler may his name to be destroyed forever in hell.

History's lesson in any situation should be not only to acknowledge what it is that we like, but what we dislike in order to learn its most valueable lessons. Make no mistake, the fastest way for ideologies such as those of the Nazi party to spread again are to try to not allow people to think about them.

From making such a post, you are yourself identifying with exactly what it is you yourself are trying to undermine. Wishing that the persons name, let alone their existance burn in hell.
 
mtu said:
I'd so love to see you say that into the face of people who had realtives murdered in concentration camps.

Seriously, it seems to me you British are all jealous that Germany had National Socialism before you did. And now your magazines and newspapers all so jam-packed with Wehrmacht stories and Hakenkreuz images you think it can't have been so bad.

Besides the fact that that "saying it to the faces of people who had relatives murdered in concentration camps" does not change the truth behind the statement...

I can assure you I have done exactly that, and will continue to do so (I practice what I preach) without fear as I realize that if they are about to go on their tangents about how "Hitler was an evil man," they never learned the life lesson that they should have to begin with. Believe it or not, half the people I know who are jewish have agreed with what I have said and the other half have blown up in the expected emotional manner. Then again, you cannot expect to have logical arguments with people who are running through emotional and possibly traumatic experiences.

I don't know where the statement about "you British" came from. I'm not British.
 
auldian said:
Brilliant idea. (psst ... read what you quoted)

I didn't vote no though, and I thoroughly believe yes he should be included. If you mean I shouldn't have voted either way because it is an invalid poll, well I can only say I voted to add to the support of what is true, regardless of validity to have a desired effect.
 
ranger999 said:
With regard to the native Americans, I agree with you that forced assimilation was by no means the worst of what some suffered. However, I am not aware of any case where assimilated individuals of part-Indian blood were killed by government decree, whereas the Nazis went after any taint of Jewish blood and disregarded assimilation. There was no way to assimilate individuals of targeted ethnicities in Nazi Germany, save by the rare "Aryanization" certificate. I am not aware of federally sanctioned killing squads, for example, that went through towns in established states with orders to systematically kill individuals with specified percentages of native ancestry.

The 19th century Indian Wars were not accompanied by special government groups roaming through the Midwest & Eastern coast, meticulously sifting through parish records to find & kill all full-blooded or partial-Indians who might be the local mayor, or running a general store, or teaching the local schoolchildren. The US govt sought to eradicate any sovereign Native entities that interfered with land settlement and along with them any Native culture that would lead to resistance, hence the boarding schools for those children after the government decided to indoctrinate the children. The Germans went through their assimilated Jews (including many German citizens living in land continuously under control by Germany since 1871) and decided to kill them; no indoctrination schools for them where the children could be brought up as full Germans. All Jews had to be wiped out. For the exact parallel between the US to hold with Germany exactly, you'd have to show the existence of an organized effort to identify & kill all individuals of Indian ancestry in all settled states of the Union, and the US government never did this. It certainly wasn't an offense, for example, to fail to denounce your half-Indian neighbor to the New York City police so he could be taken away & killed.

Upon rereading your post, I think we are talking about slightly different things. You are pointing out that the Nazis liked to frequently label their ideological enemies as Jews, though the Nazis never labeled the Chinese (Communist or Nationalist) as "Jewish", so I think there are limits to which they would go publically. I'm pointing out that the presumption with individuals of Jewish ancestry is that they were automatically considered enemies of the state *regardless* of their ideology.

Now, I grant you, it is a staple of alternate history that if Hitler had won, he'd have gotten around to wiping out many other groups (Slavs) as well, so in the end, it might not have mattered except that certain groups were wiped out first, and they might all have been labelled "Jewish" in turn (well maybe not the "Asiatics").

As for more evil, I didn't mean to imply that, but I would say different from certain other situations, such as the Indian Wars in America, as I don't feel it is exactly the same. Pol Pot, as another example, was different in his own way (and some argue worse), and he managed to kill a significant fraction of his own countrymen, and he killed for pretty bizarre ideological reasons as well, but he didn't accomplish anything from the standpoint of foreign relations or military conquest. Therefore, I doubt we'll see anyone lobbying to play him, as he seems less interesting to many posters.

Anyway, to get back to my earlier posts, I still don't think the existing German government will allow the sale of a version of Civ with Hitler as a playable leader.

There is somewhat of a play on words with your first paragraph. Although you might find it hard to find instances by which "assimilated" individuals were systematicly killed by government decree, you will find many accounts by which Native Americans (un-assimilated) were killed in just such a manner.

It is true that "special groups" were not roaming around through parishes seeking people of Indian blood, because "special groups" were not needed, the military suited the task of Indian removal and elimination just fine. Unlike jews, Native Americans were of complete different cultural background, everything about them was different (including skin color) so doing active background checks was unneccessary.

Ie. Big man standing wearing a feathered headdress and unfamiliar with your language is somewhat difficult to not notice.

There are going to be exceptions in any case of mass genocide, you happen to cite but a few (that are not even universal, such as native children being indoctrinated to schools.) Although the argument can, as an exception be made that there were attempts to reconstitue native americans, nevertheless their people were destroyed and by definition it was an act of genocide. Unlike the jews which although may have been sought out differently due to their difficulty to distinguish, their culture and heritage still nevertheless survives as I had said previously. Contrarily it can be considered a worse atrocity that a smaller percentage of native americans survived and entire tribes were wiped out, aside from this, being removed from land that was *theirs* and having a different culture/religion forced upon them. The two have more parallels and similarities than they do differences, as I said every instance of genocide will undoubtedly have such differences and someone will result to pointing out the exceptions, but genocide is genocide nonetheless.

Granted as I have previously said it was people of a jewish ancestory that they did specifically attack, however the term "Jew" was used as a blanket term. The chinese were never labelled as such for 2 main reasons: Firstly their ethnicity made there be no mistaking that they could not be jewish, secondly asians were regarded by Hitlers policies to be a slight step above the jewish race, (I believe it goes into this clarification in Mein Kampf and the Japanese were an ally of Nazi Germany.)

Although as I said, I agree it is different I only believe it to be a matter of specifics rather than the overall accomplishment. I would be one such to lobby for playing as Hitler as I don't believe his accomplishments should be disacknowledged.

Personally I believe it more dangerous to try to bury the truth rather than to let it out in the open. Afterall Hitler tried to burn books and limiting your level of exposure in the end is what will be your undoing. (Imagine if it weren't jews Hitler were after, and Einstein never defected to the U.S. and hadn't encouraged the development of a U.S. A-bomb with a letter to Roosevelt... Although Germany was defeated by the time it was used... Just a thought.)

What people do not like to face up to is the fact that the darker side of human nature is just as potent as the lighter side. A country can be run by a brutal dictator, a king or emperor (etc.) just as well and in some instances better than a flourishing republic with freedom and democracy to all. Really it all comes down to what the situation is and whether you are ready to accept that it isn't the "good guys" who always win, but sometimes the ones who are willing to use everything at their disposal.
 
all full-blooded or partial-Indians who might be the local mayor
yeah, i can see that in 1840 kansas... vote for running cloud! i don't think so...
I am not aware of federally sanctioned killing squads, for example, that went through towns in established states with orders to systematically kill individuals with specified percentages of native ancestry.
no, but there were several fedarally sanctioned killing squads roaming the west, doing essentially as they pleased, i believe they're a 15 strength mounted unit.
 
Hmm, I would just to love being Emperor Hirohito and wiping Adolf Hitler off the map... I'd let him in game, but the German government would go bonkers.

So, the only choice is to mod him in. But, I'd just love to get EVERYBODY to hate Hitler using the all mighty pieces of eight.

By the way, I started playing Civ III when I was 10. It was engaging, educational and interesting. Unlike most people who drop out of a game thirty minutes in, I stick it in for hours. Longest online game I've had is eight hours, so please do watch your comments.

Speaking of which, Genghis Khan was like Hitler. He slaughtered people, he killed people who weren't Mongal and considered them inferior.
Atilla The Hun was the same way too. That's why I like blastin' em off the map. Mussolini, Hirohito and Hitler would be fun to destroy using Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchhill. Don't you agree?

By the way, I probably do have relatives that were murdered by Hitler. I'm German, Italian but I'm also Polish, English and Russian. I'm inferior, am I not?
And my grandfather fought on D-Day, so...

I'd be cool to see Mexico and Canada in the game :-).
 
Whatever maximizes profits and promotes international sales. Good publicity, following the laws of the land(s), and making a lot of money in the process. Not to mention having a shitload of fun in the process. I love Civilization. :D
 
Genghis Khan was very successful though. The Mongolian Empire at one time spanned from Eastern China right up to Constantinople/Istanble. Also, there have been over 500 years since the Khan's conquests. Hitler's attempted genocide occured less than 80 years ago.
 
Yes - 66.15%
No - 33.85%

Well, seems to me people want Hitler in the game more then they wanted Bush for president :mischief: :rolleyes:.

I'm pretty sure it would increase sales alot, but since he didn't make it to an expansion labled "warlords",
I don't see which expansion he will make it into ;).

On the other hand I find it strange the other leaders of ww2 made it ? None of em would have had nearly the same impact on history if it wasn't for Hitler :crazyeye: But the bottom line is that he is so darn ugly with that mustache so no one would like to see him in diplomacy :lol:
 
Ranger999, you should inform yourself correctly if you want to talk about the BPjM and the german laws.

According to (§18 Abs.2 JuSchGe) a game can banned in Germany if...
... it is propaganda of a banned organisation (§86 StGB).
... it shows symbols of a banned organisation without an educational intention (§86a StGB).*
... it goads people into violent actions or if it defames an ethnical group (§130 Abs.1 StGB).
... it is a manual for murder, bombing etc. (§130a StGB).
... it shows violence in a way to play it down (§131 StGB).
... it is about sex with animals (§184a StGB).
... it is about childporn (§184b StGB).

*: Some pictures of Hitler count as such a symbol, because of their use in ww2, but an animated leaderhead would be no problem.

So the inclusion of Hitler as playable Leader will not make the game illegal. If they decide, that Civ4 glorify the war (§15 Abs.2 StGB), they are able to set the game on the "Index" - a list of games, books etc. which are not allowed to be advertised or sold to minors (less then 18 years old). But just the inclusion of Hitler doesn´t make the game a glorification of war. And because of the Internet and of careless handling by traders, it is really easy for a kid to remain informed about new "indizierte" games. And the parents will buy the game for them. Me and my friends played Mortal Kombat without problem with 11 years...

So there are no legal reasons to left Hitler out of the game. It is just a question of political Correctness: I guess nearly no German would enjoy playing as Hitler and therefor the game would be sold less in Germany.
 
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