Should Hitler be in the game?

[Simsy]

History's lesson in any situation should be not only to acknowledge what it is that we like, but what we dislike in order to learn its most valueable lessons. Make no mistake, the fastest way for ideologies such as those of the Nazi party to spread again are to try to not allow people to think about them.

From making such a post, you are yourself identifying with exactly what it is you yourself are trying to undermine. Wishing that the persons name, let alone their existance burn in hell.

well after he burned segments of my family in Auchwitz, and made them suffer like nobody business, it's my duty to destory it's legacy - so i don't understand how can you say such a thing.

 

[Simsy]

Yes - 66.15%
No - 33.85%

so in the 21th century people wants to be the next Hitler ....

weird - i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

 

[ranger999]

Ranger999, you should inform yourself correctly if you want to talk about the BPjM and the german laws.

According to (§18 Abs.2 JuSchGe) a game can banned in Germany if...
... it is propaganda of a banned organisation (§86 StGB).
... it shows symbols of a banned organisation without an educational intention (§86a StGB).*
... it goads people into violent actions or if it defames an ethnical group (§130 Abs.1 StGB).
... it is a manual for murder, bombing etc. (§130a StGB).
... it shows violence in a way to play it down (§131 StGB).
... it is about sex with animals (§184a StGB).
... it is about childporn (§184b StGB).

*: Some pictures of Hitler count as such a symbol, because of their use in ww2, but an animated leaderhead would be no problem.

So the inclusion of Hitler as playable Leader will not make the game illegal. If they decide, that Civ4 glorify the war (§15 Abs.2 StGB), they are able to set the game on the "Index" - a list of games, books etc. which are not allowed to be advertised or sold to minors (less then 18 years old). But just the inclusion of Hitler doesn´t make the game a glorification of war. And because of the Internet and of careless handling by traders, it is really easy for a kid to remain informed about new "indizierte" games. And the parents will buy the game for them. Me and my friends played Mortal Kombat without problem with 11 years...

So there are no legal reasons to left Hitler out of the game. It is just a question of political Correctness: I guess nearly no German would enjoy playing as Hitler and therefor the game would be sold less in Germany.

Thanks for your clarification. I recall Castle Wolfenstein ran into trouble due to its liberal use of swastikas. This despite the fact the player was supposedly fighting the Nazis. Was it merely indexed & forbidden to be advertised, or did the German government actually seize it from shelves? Also, do you know how well these "indizierte Spiele" sell, compared to mainstream? In America, there is a movie rating called "NC-17" that is de facto used for very violent, or very sexual media, and they do very poorly in theaters because few theater owners see a large market for these films, even though they can be advertised.

Edit: oops, should have looked it up on wikipedia...looks like Wolfenstein 3D was confiscated (the version with Nazi symbols) & indexed, with a later version being released without the symbols. But if I am reading right, the sequel Spear of Destiny was only indexed and not confiscated, according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D. The English wiki only mentions the trouble the original ran into, & doesn't say anything one way or the other about the sequel. I was thinking of the confiscation of the original and wasn't aware about the sequel.

 

[BearMan]

so in the 21th century people wants to be the next Hitler ....

weird - i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

I think they mostly wanna play against him, but we can't know, the poll doesn't say

 

[Depravo]

so in the 21th century people wants to be the next Hitler ....

weird - i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

I don't know what sort of reaction you were expecting, but this is pathetic. Hitler was not good to my family either but I have more of a sense of perspective than to make it my mission to purge his name from history. I would hope we'd moved beyond the age of obelisk-plastering and memory-holing inconvenient facts and personalities.

 

[naterator]

i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

it's no less desirable than the torture starvation, and being put to death by the sword that countless leaders have employed. technology and industrialism make larger scale possible, but don't fool yourself into thinking alexander wouldn't have gassed the persians if he had the means. if you feel the need to "destroy their legacy", well, i wouldn't bother.. if anything, WWII, and especially hitler are a cautionary story of what can happen when you allow nationalism and racism to run amok. the legacy of hitlers life is very contrary to his aims in life, as he left a world behind where it's significantly less safe to criticize people for being jewish than to be jewish yourself. in fact, unbelievable as it may be, perhaps hitler's madness could be counted as one of the driving forces that made people confront civil rights issues for religious and racial minorities, due to the (hollow) promise of "never again"!

 

[Smidlee]

so in the 21th century people wants to be the next Hitler ....

weird - i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

I have no problem playing games like Hearts of Iron where you can both play for and againest Hitler. So it would be no different to me having Hitler in civ as well. That in no way means I agree with Hitler or Nazis ideology. I really don't care who the leaders are for each nation; it's all about gameplay to me.

 

[SilentDemon]

I don't know what sort of reaction you were expecting, but this is pathetic. Hitler was not good to my family either but I have more of a sense of perspective than to make it my mission to purge his name from history. I would hope we'd moved beyond the age of obelisk-plastering and memory-holing inconvenient facts and personalities.

Well said~

 

[SilentDemon]

well after he burned segments of my family in Auchwitz, and made them suffer like nobody business, it's my duty to destory it's legacy - so i don't understand how can you say such a thing.

Just think about it, if in burning away the memories of people such as yours, your response would be to burn away legacies such as his, then his actions have made you to become little different in essence from what it was he was. In effect his actions have not only destroyed people during his time, but tainted the actions of some of their descendants as well.

I am not anti-semitic, but lets face it, in order to argue with people who will on a regular basis throw the "my family members were killed by that evil man " argument, you have to yourself take the side of a truthful, but very unpopular side demonizing yourself. You know what I respect? The people who don't talk about it every chance they get to try to undermine a discussion but would enjoy every minute of every day that they get because they realize they are lucky to be having them. That is what the lesson to be learned is. To come so close to being utterly destroyed as a race and yet have people to survive and pass on your heritage, you are the lucky ones, there were many who did not. Argue against Hitlers policy with facts and analyze theory - fine. Argue some of the blunders and hypocrisy that he himself made as well as the Nazi party - absolutely. Have an argueable side though, do not use the same method of propoganda to shut down educated debate by using blanket terms, or you yourself are engaging in an act of propoganda which only succeeds when the opposing side doesn't want to argue for Hitlers cause (which many do not want to argue for his case.) I look like the bad guy for arguing what is true whether you like to think about it or not, but nevertheless it is true. I would rather be the "bad guy" and have the slightest chance of opening up something to discussion than let the truth be unsaid.

If you want to undermine Hitlers legacy, take a stance, read about him, know your enemy. Then use such arguments such as how his economic policy *may* have run into trouble if he ever ran a peaceful state (which at least has something to think about behind it.) By trying to destroy the past and what we can learn from it you are ensuring the repeat of history.

 

[SilentDemon]

so in the 21th century people wants to be the next Hitler ....

weird - i didn't think before that torturing people, making them loose their human form, and than put them to a gas chamber and burning their body in a incinerator is something so desireable

The poll does not mean that people want to *be* Hitler, it only suggests they think he should be included because he was far too influencial to ignore. Many such arguments as your quote have problems with logic as one statement does not necessarily (and usually doesn't at all) beget the other.

Premise (True) - Poll indicates a high percentage of people wanting Hitler in Civ4

Premise (True) - there are many defenses of Hitlers accomplishments in this thread

Conclusion (False) - Many people here want to be the next Hitler

The only true conclusion that can be drawn from the premises based on the information given is:

Conclusion (True) - The poll indicates a high percentage of people wanting Hitler in Civ4 and there are many defenses of Hitlers accomplishments in this thread.

You would need more true premises before you could draw other truthful conclusions.

It is loose conclusion drawing such as this that undermines any possibility of intelligent argument or definitive solutions.

(By the way, I probably would want to play as Nazi Germany / Hitler, but only in that I believe I would've done it different / better and some of the attributes they would assign to the civ might fit me well.)

 

[Spartan117]

SilentDemon ,"Argue against Hitlers policy with facts and analyze theory - fine. Argue some of the blunders and hypocrisy that he himself made as well as the Nazi party - absolutely. Have an argueable side though, do not use the same method of propoganda to shut down educated debate by using blanket terms, or you yourself are engaging in an act of propoganda which only succeeds when the opposing side doesn't want to argue for Hitlers cause (which many do not want to argue for his case.) I look like the bad guy for arguing what is true whether you like to think about it or not, but nevertheless it is true. I would rather be the "bad guy" and have the slightest chance of opening up something to discussion than let the truth be unsaid."


Originally Posted by Depravo
I don't know what sort of reaction you were expecting, but this is pathetic. Hitler was not good to my family either but I have more of a sense of perspective than to make it my mission to purge his name from history. I would hope we'd moved beyond the age of obelisk-plastering and memory-holing inconvenient facts and personalities.

what they said....

 

[Syntherio]

Thanks for your clarification. I recall Castle Wolfenstein ran into trouble due to its liberal use of swastikas. This despite the fact the player was supposedly fighting the Nazis. Was it merely indexed & forbidden to be advertised, or did the German government actually seize it from shelves? Also, do you know how well these "indizierte Spiele" sell, compared to mainstream? In America, there is a movie rating called "NC-17" that is de facto used for very violent, or very sexual media, and they do very poorly in theaters because few theater owners see a large market for these films, even though they can be advertised.

Edit: oops, should have looked it up on wikipedia...looks like Wolfenstein 3D was confiscated (the version with Nazi symbols) & indexed, with a later version being released without the symbols. But if I am reading right, the sequel Spear of Destiny was only indexed and not confiscated, according to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein_3D. The English wiki only mentions the trouble the original ran into, & doesn't say anything one way or the other about the sequel. I was thinking of the confiscation of the original and wasn't aware about the sequel.

I don´t know why they confiscated Wolfenstein 3D until 2004, but set Spear of Destiny just on the Index. Maybe they became more liberal Many of the original prohibitions were lifted after a few years.
I have no sources, how well those games are sold compared to the mainstream. Indexed movies have no chance in theaters, but in most videostores and -rentals you have a much frequented "adults-only"-area where these movies and games are sold and lent together with "normal" FSK18-movies and USK18-games (our nc-17-rating).

btw: while the BPjM is a federal agency and part of the ministry for family, the decision if something is indexed isn´t made by the government. A 12-person commitee consists of the chairman, one representive for art, literature, the book trade and publishers, the suppliers of videos and the telecommunications industry, voluntary-sector youth organisations, public-sector youth organisations, teaching staff, the churches and 3 representives from the ministries for youth protection of 3 different states, make the decisions.

 

[dlordmagic]

I believe he should be put in. Cruelty is cruelty in my opinion regardless of the targets or the reasons behind it. He was not the only tyrant in history simply the most recent. Besides who wouldnt love the chance to kick a little Hitler butt.

 

[SilentDemon]

I just wanted to add, notice how Simsy has his location as Israel. If his statements didn't reflect it themselves, this shows there to be some questionability as to his level of bias with regard to Hitler.

 

[upstart]

Ignoring the past is the best way to relive it. Plus it is is truly idiotic how many movies are allowed to get away with so, so much more than gaming without coming under any amount of criticism. I just hate double standards.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

..., but don't fool yourself into thinking alexander wouldn't have gassed the persians if he had the means.

This is really a bad example. Alexander razed Persepolis but he also partially adopted persian culture, had several persian wives, and tried to merge Greek and Persian culture in order to create a lasting empire.
Maybe the real Alex was a warmonger like the civ4-Alex but he was no racist, and by no means was his aim genocide.
Hitler was driven by an irrational hatred towards jews, slavs and everything which didn't fit in his ideology.

 

[Osymandias]

in a ww2-scenario hitler has to be in, no question. ww2 without hitler would be like skiing without snow.
BUT NOT in the normal game. me, as a german, don't want to be represented virtualy by hitler! it would be the badiest choice for a leader and would be a sign of extremly bad taste by the devs.
like i said before: a leader should be chosen to represent the civ and that does not count for hitler! as it counts for me i would be insulted if hitler is included in the normal game.

Ignoring the past is the best way to relive it.

what has this statement to do with hitler in a game like civ?? you count the exclusion of hitler out of the game as ignoring of the past?? civ is a *what if...* game. if your statement should be taken serious, then it could only count for a scenario. but also the scen doesn't take the same ways as the original. in the normal game every developement is possible.

if you don't want to ignore the past then watch some ww2/hitler-docus and movies. that shows the past.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

it IS an empire founded on the genocide of an entire ethnic group (ok, well only 98% of them),.

What empire wasn't (or at least didn't get its pre-imperial start that way.)

The fact is History was not like civ, expanding into 'empty space' finished way before 4000 BC... the 'expansion phase' of human prehistory finished sometime before 10,000 BC. practially every bit of territory in existence has most probably had the 'natives' wiped out by invaders at one point. (most probably so far back in prehistory that no one will ever know the natives existed)

As for Hitler... if he wasn't that controversial he Might be in (probably would in this expansion) given that he did lose, but is well known. However, given the fact that he is uniquely controversial, I'd say he won't be and shouldn't be. In 50 to 100 years maybe.

 

[Sohan]

Including Hitler in the game would not expand sales. Almost everyone who wants Hitler in the game has either bought the game or plans on buying the game anyways, regardless of whether Hitler is in it or not. In fact, including Hitler would make the game illegal in some countries. Thus, it would decrease sales. Just because we, the people who already have the game, seem to be voting in favor of including Hitler does not equate to an increase in sales. That's just silly. Abiding by the laws of the countries of your fan-base is an important element of the game.

Edit: Besides, this poll is biased from the get-go. It doesn't give a "no" option that is for sales and legal reasons. I say "no" but I didn't vote "no" on this poll because I disagree with both the reasons given in the poll options. I'm fine with including mass murderers and I don't care about the glorifying of taboo ideologies. What I'm against is anything that makes it harder for people to get Civilization. If that option was there, I would vote "no" instead of abstaining.

 

[SilentDemon]

in a ww2-scenario hitler has to be in, no question. ww2 without hitler would be like skiing without snow.
BUT NOT in the normal game. me, as a german, don't want to be represented virtualy by hitler! it would be the badiest choice for a leader and would be a sign of extremly bad taste by the devs.
like i said before: a leader should be chosen to represent the civ and that does not count for hitler! as it counts for me i would be insulted if hitler is included in the normal game.


what has this statement to do with hitler in a game like civ?? you count the exclusion of hitler out of the game as ignoring of the past?? civ is a *what if...* game. if your statement should be taken serious, then it could only count for a scenario. but also the scen doesn't take the same ways as the original. in the normal game every developement is possible.

if you don't want to ignore the past then watch some ww2/hitler-docus and movies. that shows the past.

Actually most WW2 movies are very poor representations of the past. Although you may be German and may not want to be represented by that era in your history, you cannot deny that it is one of the more prosperous and powerful throughout German history. I would count an exclusion of Hitler in the game as ignoring the past, seeing that the civilizations and leaders included in the game (although true just a game) are an analysis of the most powerful and influencial throughout history, to not include Hitler and Nazi Germany to this category is, in effect ignoring the truth about the past.