Should Hitler be in the game?

[SilentDemon]

This poll is showing support for Hitler is less than that for Stalin.

For Stalin:
81% (or 93%)

For Hitler:
69%

Might I point out more westerners are unsympathetic with Hitler for how much he has been demonized in the mainstream? (aside from the fact that because of this polls participant numbers it has no external validity.)

 

[SilentDemon]

All the leaders currently in the game have one thing in common, they left their country more powerful when they died/stepped down. Hitler did not, and therefore should not be in the game.

This could be argued, depending on your perspective.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Ah, I was waiting for this. Go read some history books, the greatness of Nazi Germany and Hitler is absolutely astounding after you have studied it a bit. Did you realize that during this time the Nazis:

The leading innovators of rocket technology for their time (V2s etc.)
Had the best tanks at the onset of WW2
Were the first to use radio communications in their tanks / armored vehicles
Had the most well trained and organized military beginning WW2
Created the luger, which almost became the standard side arm instead of the colt 45 for the U.S. military.
Went from one of the least to one of the most industrialized countries
Defeated France
Defeated Poland
Very nearly defeated Britain
Waged campaigns in North Africa, controlling vast amounts of territory
Were re-writing their own versions of history and had an active archaeology campaign to do so
Had some of the best generals in all of history (Rommel etc.)
Had support from numerous U.S. businessmen and lobbyists (Henry Ford...)
Waged war against Russia, Britain and was fighting in North Africa and winning at a point
Adolf Hitler was elected democraticly, don't forget.
Germany went from economic blight, debt and hyper-inflation to prosperity
Germany went from relatively no military to the best in the world
Had extreme instances of propoganda and innovation, such as Zepplins and some of the first ever television broadcasts.
American forces molded their infantry divisions around German divisions (focused around machine gun protection)
Germans possessed some of the best machine gun technology at this time
German warships were considered some of the best that were created at this era.
Tiger tanks are widely considered some of the best tanks ever made for their time.
The German airforce was one of the most potent in the world at this time
The nazis had the largest air transport plane (originally designed to be a glider) created during the war, which could transport infantry as well as tanks.
In the process of making this glider transport the germans devised the first functional plane that was 2 planes sharing the same engines.
Researched unusual weaponry systems such as: Sound amplification weaponry, vortex guns, radioactive space shuttle systems, submersive tanks and more.
Germans also had some of the best and most impressive cannon technologies and applications. (Including I believe the biggest cannon ever built to date.)

These are only a few things to name, for a laymens look at things watch some of whats on the history channel, you'll be impressed by how much there actually is regarding the might of the German army at this time period. Also, keep in mind, in the game already there is a quote by Hitler, as well as the "rocketry" technology, "facism," "radio," panzer tanks, and other instances where it is clear that firaxis did have them in mind, but they simply can't put them in because of political correctness. To say that "he never achieved any sort of greatness" is just ignorant, he is just as if not more prominent a historical figure than Stalin, or some of the other historical figures in the game. Much of the modern world has been shaped because of the actions of this man, go study up on him and you'll see what I mean.

Yeah.

Except that Hitler had very little to do with all that. The scarce, actually strategic decisions he took led to utter failures (for example, terror bombing in the Battle of Britain, which prevented the invasion of the British Isles and perhaps even the German victory of WW2). Steve3000 was talking about Hitler, not Germany.

 

[SilentDemon]

Stalin was racist, but when he starved millions of people, it was part of a plan to make Russia run better. (Albeit, a bad plan.) Hitler sent people to death camps because of hatred, not because it served a purpose beyond genocide. There is a difference as far as I'm concerned. It could've been Christians that he exterminated, it makes no difference. It's not "Jewish influence."

Actually, there was a fairly major side reason: Cheap labor. How else do you massively industrialize a country that has economic problems? If you notice Stalin and Mao had a similar idea during the same time period. Jewish (and other minorities) were frequently used as a source of cheap labor to create military weaponry and other facilities to help run the German war machine. It wasn't exactly just because of "hatred." Also, as a stretch and an indirect purpose it served a sense of nationalism as a uniting factor for the German people, similarly to today if someone were to cite joining a cause to fight against "The terrorists" in the U.S. today. A witch hunt can work wonders . To some degree it can be jewish influence as they are a more outspoken community in places such as the U.S. and european countries, than say the Chinese or Russian communities (with respect to Mao, or Stalin.) Remember the outcry against "Passion of the Christ" when it first came out on the news?

 

[Lord Shadow]

At any rate, the main reason against having Hitler in the game is... sales! As some have said, references to nazism (people, symbols, etc.) are illegal in Germany and (perhaps) in Israel.

If I were Firaxis, I wouldn't sacrifice a sizeable amount of profit to please a few fans that want Hitler in the game. It's as simple as that.

And someone said, mod him in if you want.

 

[SilentDemon]

Yeah.

Except that Hitler had very little to do with all that. The scarce, actually strategic decisions he took led to utter failures (for example, terror bombing in the Battle of Britain, which prevented the invasion of the British Isles and perhaps even the German victory of WW2). Steve3000 was talking about Hitler, not Germany.

The leading innovators of rocket technology for their time (V2s etc.) (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Had the best tanks at the onset of WW2 (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Were the first to use radio communications in their tanks / armored vehicles (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Had the most well trained and organized military beginning WW2 (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Created the luger, which almost became the standard side arm instead of the colt 45 for the U.S. military. (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Went from one of the least to one of the most industrialized countries (One of many reasons this occured was in part because of Hitlers concentration camps used as a form of cheap labor)

Defeated France (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Defeated Poland (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Very nearly defeated Britain (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Waged campaigns in North Africa, controlling vast amounts of territory (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Were re-writing their own versions of history and had an active archaeology campaign to do so (Product of Hitlers campaign to prove historically that the Aryans were a master race / tribe)

Had some of the best generals in all of history (Rommel etc.) (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Had support from numerous U.S. businessmen and lobbyists (Henry Ford...) (Product of Hitlers anti-semitism and policy regarding the jewish populace)

Waged war against Russia, Britain and was fighting in North Africa and winning at a point (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Adolf Hitler was elected democraticly, don't forget. (the man himself)

Germany went from economic blight, debt and hyper-inflation to prosperity (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Germany went from relatively no military to the best in the world (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Had extreme instances of propoganda and innovation, such as Zepplins and some of the first ever television broadcasts. (Zepplins donned the Nazi flag, Hitlers party and some of the first ever television broadcasts were of him having speeches)

American forces molded their infantry divisions around German divisions (focused around machine gun protection) (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Germans possessed some of the best machine gun technology at this time (The MG- line was introduced at this time which, is part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

German warships were considered some of the best that were created at this era. (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Tiger tanks are widely considered some of the best tanks ever made for their time. (Used by SS Tiger / Panzer forces, and were designed during Hitlers time of power, Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

The German airforce was one of the most potent in the world at this time (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

The nazis had the largest air transport plane (originally designed to be a glider) created during the war, which could transport infantry as well as tanks. (This plane was deliberately commissioned by Hitler to be created, he wanted a larger form of a "glider" which could be used as a troop transport)

In the process of making this glider transport the germans devised the first functional plane that was 2 planes sharing the same engines. (used to pull the glider that was invented)

Researched unusual weaponry systems such as: Sound amplification weaponry, vortex guns, radioactive space shuttle systems, submersive tanks and more. (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)

Germans also had some of the best and most impressive cannon technologies and applications. (Including I believe the biggest cannon ever built to date.) (Part of the German War machine, a product of Hitlers policy)



Which part exactly did Hitler have very little to do with..?

 

[SilentDemon]

At any rate, the main reason against having Hitler in the game is... sales! As some have said, references to nazism (people, symbols, etc.) are illegal in Germany and (perhaps) in Israel.

If I were Firaxis, I wouldn't sacrifice a sizeable amount of profit to please a few fans that want Hitler in the game. It's as simple as that.

And someone said, mod him in if you want.

Political correctness and sales, I would agree with that.

 

[Sohan]

It isn't a question of how important a leader is to history. It's how important a leader is to the history of their specific civilization.

Otto von Bismarck had a huge impact on German history. Germany wouldn't even be a unified country if it wasn't for his policies. Plus, Bismarck began the German global empire during the Imperialistic times. Hitler's Nazi Germany might have had most of Europe, but the German Empire created as a result of Bismarck's actions had influence on nearly every continent, ranging from high investment in the Americas to colonies in Africa and Southeast Asia to ports in East Asia and even a leading role among Europeans in fighting the Chinese.

Frederick the Great is another huge figure in German history. I would argue that he's a better leader than Hitler was. Frederick the Great took a divided and small pair of territories, East Prussia and Brandenburg, and forged them into one of the five most powerful kingdoms in Europe. He took a relatively small rural population and created one of the strongest land armies in the entire world, with the French, Russians, and Austrians only having large armies due to population. In truth, the Prussians under Frederick the Great had the most disciplined army of them all. Furthermore, it would be the militarily powerful Prussia created by Frederick the Great that would eventually unite the German principalities and create the German Empire. The same German Empire that Otto von Bismarck played a huge role in.

A third leader that I personally think is almost as important as Otto von Bismarck and Frederick the Great in terms of German history is Frederick Barbarossa, although most of his influence is in terms of the idea of a united germany rather than in the reality of one. Still, he definitely strengthened the monarchical power in ways that no other German monarch would be able to do until half a dozen centuries later.

Adolf Hitler created the Third Reich, which was definitely a large albeit short-lived empire. However, don't forget that there were two Reichs before Hitler's, and both of them were just as powerful in respect to the rest of the world. The real big difference though is that Hitler's German Empire never ever had a peace-time. Napoleon's France, Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, and Alexander's Empire all existed for a time during peace-time. Hitler's empire became powerful and was then destroyed in just one war. Napoleon had a ton of wars and plenty of peace-time for his empire. Alexander's empire lasted several years after his last military engagement. Hitler's empire, on the other hand, went from poor country to empire back to poor country in the span of a single war.

Nonetheless, I do agree Hitler was an important leader in terms of history.

Edit: And the best answer is probably sales.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Which part exactly did Hitler have very little to do with..?

OK, so saying "make me a strong military" and "attack this and that" equals greatness? The military was superb, but wasn't put to good use because of him and some of his decisions. It was Germany's generals who were great, German scientists and engineers who were excellent. Hitler wasn't, he was a horrible leader.

I admit he brought his country out of an economic depression, but most of the nation was in shambles by 1945, so that achievement is basically moot.

He was notorious and remarkably harmful to the world, yes. But great? Definitely not.

 

[Spartan117]

The economic situation in Germany (map2) was made worse by the enormous debt with which the country had been burdened following the First World War. It had been forced to borrow heavily in order to pay "reparations" to the victorious European powers, as demanded by the Treat of Versailles (1919), and also to pay for industrial reconstruction. When the American economy fell into depression, US banks recalled their loans, causing the German banking system to collapse- http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/depression/about.htm

In Germany Hitler adopted policies that were more interventionist, developing a massive work-creation scheme that had largely eradicated unemployment by 1936. In the same year rearmament, paid for by government borrowing, started in earnest. In order to keep down inflation, consumption was restricted by rationing and trade controls. By 1939 the Germans’ Gross National Product was 51 per cent higher than in 1929 — an increase due mainly to the manufacture of armaments and machinery. -http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/depression/about.htm

 

[Giaur]

Uhhh, I was scared that Hitler won't be rewarded as Stalin was. War criminals both of them should be treated the same. Stalin murdered Polish officers in Katyn. Hitler murdered milions of Jews living in Poland and many other countries. Puting no comment about that is a hero's work. My respect to the creators.

Aplause ...

P.S. Certainly won't buy an expansion, hehehehehahaha

 

[Depravo]

Yeah.

Except that Hitler had very little to do with all that. The scarce, actually strategic decisions he took led to utter failures (for example, terror bombing in the Battle of Britain, which prevented the invasion of the British Isles and perhaps even the German victory of WW2). Steve3000 was talking about Hitler, not Germany.

Hitler was the first leader of a great power fully to grasp the potential of mobile warfare. That has to count for something. His strategic choices were sometimes questionable but often paid off spectacularly in the early war. The fall of France has become a cliche of history, so much that we forget what an achievement it was for Germany and how terrible a blow for the Allies.

I happen to believe Britain couldn't have been successfully invaded in '40 and that Sealion was a massive feint to try and break British morale.

True, Hitler made some appalling blunders, but then he had far less to play with. Nothing worse in terms of sheer illogic than the idiocy of Churchill's Dakar raid, the catalogue of strategic and operational cockups that led to the debacles in Malaya and Burma or plans for interference in Scandinavia which might have brought England to war with Norway and affronted Sweden, the States and the Soviet Union.

To say nothing of Stalin. First off, the Winter War. Say no more. Then the failure to anticipate the German invasion despite clear warning. The retreat to the dacha in numb shock at the scale of his own stupidity for the crucial first months of the invasion. The catalogue of incompetence that led to the slaughter on the frontiers culminating in the destruction of the Kiev pocket. This makes leaving Paulus in Stalingrad look excusable. Three million soldiers marched off to German PoW camps in a disaster that would have finished off a lesser nation, thanks largely to Stalin's refusal to withdraw.

The successes of the '41 winter offensive were squandered due to Stalin's insistence on continual full-frontal attacks; the '42 Kharkov offensive weakened that section of front so badly it made the German stab towards the Caucasus later that year possible.

They say the difference between insanity and genius is success. Because Hitler ultimately led Germany to ruin doesn't make him any less Great with a large G.

 

[Mozza]

sorry but in what way is victoria a mass murderer

Not read the entire thread so this may have been answered. She wasn't

She was however, a heroin addict.

Add Cromwell if you want a contreversial leader


As for him ultimately failing. Napolean failed miserably but he's included.

 

[mtu]

The Hitler-cheering in this thread makes me sick!

So maybe he did build up the economy - a war economy, if I might point that out. But for what price? I would love to trade all that "greatness" (where I think "they had the biggest plane" amounts to "they had the biggest dicks" and is worth as much) for a history where the country I live in did not bear responsibility for the murdering of six million Jews, millions of homosexuals, political dissidents, soldiers and civilians of its own population and soldiers and civilians of other countries.

Perhaps you just don't have any idea what it's like to live in a country that sees itself confronted with such a history. But whatever "good" Hitler did, it was for a too horrible price. Yes, I would accept to live in a country with a weaker economy, with less jobs and with less advanced technology. If only I could know it was so that 60 million people that died in World War II were still alive. And don't give me that "Stahlgewitter" bullfeathers - without Hitler, there would not have been World War Two.

I leave you with this piece of German poetry:

"Die könnten jetzt doch alle
In Madagaskar sitzen
Schön warum und überhaupt auch viel mehr Platz
Der ganze Zweite Weltkrieg
Ein Gegenstand von Witzen
Und über unser Land kein böser Satz"

[ Couldn't they all just sit
In Madagascar now?
Nice and warm and more space overall
The whole of the Second World War
A subject of jokes
And not a bad word about our country ]

 

[Depravo]

The Hitler-cheering in this thread makes me sick!

Calm down, do.

 

[mtu]

Calm down, do.

I cannot believe how well you responded to my arguments

 

[tlucky4life]

Hitler is the bad side of human power. Influencing mass amounts of people using nationalistic and fearful rhetoric against another group of people. He was influential. I say mod him in. Ignoring the problems of the human character will not make them go away.

 

[gianluca790]

Hitler set the bar when it comes to political evil, fanatical tyranny and bad leaders, at least in the popular imagination. The fact he lost WWII did not help to endear him and his cause to the rest of the world. The world was led at the time at the end of the war by his opponents. They made sure he was made into a dangerous monster by political propaganda spin-doctors when he was just a crazy, pathetic, foolish bigot who overreached in his ambitions and did not really have much of a chance in hell of conquering the world anyway. This is a fact despite the might of the modern German war machine. Bad leadership in and of itself however is not a good enough reason not to include him in the game. It was thanks to Hitler and the Holocaust that the international institutions like the UN, NATO, the Internationa Court of Justice etc. were founded - to make sure that something like the Holocaust would never happen again! Arguing about whether or not to include Hitler in the game is like accusing the people who want him in the game of being ideological bigots. The censors who want to leave him out of the game are just as ideologically bigoted as those who want to include him. There are just as many bigoted people on the primarily socialist and democratic political left as there are on the primarily republican and fascist political right.

 

[naterator]

Perhaps you just don't have any idea what it's like to live in a country that sees itself confronted with such a history

maybe not, but us americans live in a country that simply chooses not to recognize our such history. i'm not saying any individual american leader was as bad as hitler, but it IS an empire founded on the genocide of an entire ethnic group (ok, well only 98% of them), and the eradication of essentially the entire plains ecosystem for farming. and i love it here, i'm not saying we should give it all back, but it's important to see both sides of the fence, and in the long run, being forced to deal with it will be better for your country. america puts andrew jackson, the president behind the "indian removal act" of 1830, on our $20 bill, maybe if hitler was born 100 years earlier he would be on your money. it's important to remember that the idea of genocide wasn't really THAT controversial a few hundred years ago, when people who spoke another language, woshipped another god, or had another skin color were openly considered sub-humans, to be subjucated and exploited for their resources. really right up through WWI this was the prevalant attitude, as european empires enveloped the world.

 

[SilentDemon]

OK, so saying "make me a strong military" and "attack this and that" equals greatness? The military was superb, but wasn't put to good use because of him and some of his decisions. It was Germany's generals who were great, German scientists and engineers who were excellent. Hitler wasn't, he was a horrible leader.

I admit he brought his country out of an economic depression, but most of the nation was in shambles by 1945, so that achievement is basically moot.

He was notorious and remarkably harmful to the world, yes. But great? Definitely not.

You'll notice military greatness is a definate pre-requisite to be considered with being a great leader, and some of the greatest technologies have come to fruition during times of war (such as plastics, fission etc.) Germanys generals were appointed by Hitler and although yes there were military blunders executed by him, there were also tremendous victories such as France, Poland, North Africa and the beginnings of the Russian campaign. There is also strong evidence to suggest that Hitler was suffering from parkinsons late in his life, and if I recall correctly one of his treatments by a personal physician involved mercury, which has a slew of other side effects (a plausible reason for poor judgement in the late war.) Most of his nation was in shambles by 1945 because they were the ones that the world was fighting against, and it took the dominant powers of the world combined to win, if anything that emphasizes his greatness. The achievement is not moot, because many other leaders have suffered tremendous defeats, and it does not undermine the undeniable facts of Germanys prosperity and military superiority during his height. The truth is he was an excellent leader, but the few examples people cite as "blunders" he made are the ones that stand out the most, namely his attack on Russia (which was initially very succesful and can be argued was succesful in general up until the U.S. war involvement, true Russia was mounting a large counter offensive but the Russian casaulties were on a near 10-1 ratio.) He was notorious and harmful, but harmful to our view of the world, very successful to his own.