Should Intellectual Property exist?

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Nick723

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Inspired by the AI and books thread, opening a debate about the broader topic of intellectual property as a whole.

Some say it is crucial to spur innovation and research, others say it has the opposite effect and is a way for people to extract monopoly rents.

It is an artificial concept created by us, so should we continue to support it? Would the world be a better place without the concept of IP?

The pros / cons arguments are set out briefly here: https://iea.org.uk/debate-should-we-support-intellectual-property-rights/
 
I see both sides of it and don’t know which is the better one. Just thinking off the top of my head scenario: suppose a drug company does research into a new medicine, and in the absence of IP as codified in law, keeps the formula a secret within the company. Presumably, it is not a violation of anyone’s rights to keep a secret.

Then, suppose that one disgruntled employee publishes the formula: how could a company recoup the losses? I see the effect of abolishing the codified IP as really being little more than beneficial to those firms that are good at securing their developments, and punishing those who are poor at it. A legal monopoly through IP at least, from this perspective, I think gives small players a more level playing field and a set of more easily-understood standards.

Obviously, with something like a creative work that is meant to be seen by a wide population this is not really feasible: remember when CDs had anti-copy protections on them? Those messed up computers and were quickly routed anyway. Would an absence of IP law motivate companies to try ever more restrictive measures? Can’t say.

Just my ¥2. :)
 
Yes but should probably only last a lifetime. Once the inventor dies public domain. Otherwise 25 years perhaps no mire than 50 no ifs or buts or extensions.
 
It shouldn't be completely abolished but needs to be re-tooled a bit, probably should be only able to be held by natural persons for the extent of their natural life for example.

In a fully communist future we won't need it, we'll realize insane productivity gains from the free sharing of technical and operational information.
 
It shouldn't be completely abolished but needs to be re-tooled a bit, probably should be only able to be held by natural persons for the extent of their natural life for example.
For media content, I favor an "active use" approach. So long as the IP holder is creating content distributed to the public, they get to keep the IP.
Take Star Trek for example. Gene Roddenberry is long dead, so if the IP didn't expand past his death, I strongly suspect the "brand" of Star Trek would have been ruined the last 30 years with people making cheap knock-offs, deceptive content, adult films featuring Captain Dick-ard, etc.
CBS was even quite lenient with the IP allowing fan films on fairly generous terms until one guy decided to ruin it for everyone* by abusing CBS's goodwill to the point their lawyers got involved and shut that whole thing down.

*Essentially a guy decided to raise money for his fan film by providing what he claimed was "film-branded" merch (indistinguishable to all but the nerdiest of Trekkie from real Star Trek merch) to people who donated to his fan film.
 
In a fully communist future we won't need it, we'll realize insane productivity gains from the free sharing of technical and operational information.
The obligation to keep up with constant upgrading for no advantage in income incentivizes a collusion of conveniently not innovating.
 
The obligation to keep up with constant upgrading for no advantage in income incentivizes a collusion of conveniently not innovating.
And then stealing from who do make innovations.
 
The obligation to keep up with constant upgrading for no advantage in income incentivizes a collusion of conveniently not innovating.

Most "innovation" these days is just thinking of new ways to squeeze rents out of the economy, it has nothing to do with adding value. When people are not forced by capitalism to run in the treadmill merely to stay in one place, we will make innovation great again.
 
If the problems with intellectual property are serious, why doesn't the government make a company that actively acquires these properties?
The acquired properties are then freely used by the public.
The capital needed to acquire/decision to acquire or not to is concluded via a compromise between democratic method and corporate interests.
 
Intellectual property and all other forms of private property ought to be abolished, along with capitalism itself. Intellectual property law is designed to benefit the wealthy and the only way to stop that from happening is to topple the system that gives them that power.
 
Yes, but the IP protections should not last as long as they do currently.

In the short-to-medium term, IP can promote developing new ideas that someone wouldn't be able to follow through on themselves. Let's say I make a better mousetrap, but my ability to produce mousetraps is limited by what I can make at my kitchen table; I can't afford to build a mousetrap factory that can scale up to the demands of the market. Thanks to intellectual property, I can patent my better mousetrap, and then license the design to a company or consortium that has the wherewithal to build a factory. I can be financially rewarded for my clever mousetrap design, and the people can see that better mousetrap on store shelves instead of me only being able to sell a small number to my immediate neighbors. It's win-win.

Similarly in publishing, if I write a popular new novel, someone else can't just read it, set up their own printing press to make copies of it, undercut the price by 10%, and steal half of the sales.

In the long term, however, IP can stifle innovation. Copyright in particular is very lengthy in the U.S. and much of the west, at approximately 95 years. Why is Steinbeck still under copyright protection, more than half a century after the end of his life? Haven't we long been at a point where his family has been amply rewarded for his talents, and East of Eden should be part of our cultural heritage? Mickey Mouse has only started to exit copyright protection this year. Talkies have started to enter the public domain, but the vast majority of expired-copyright films remain silent films. Why shouldn't I be able to make a remix of King Kong 90 years after its release?

For products, where the term is 20 years from filing, it's a bit more nuanced. That can be reasonable, but is more situational. In my mousetrap example, it might take a couple years to get that mousetrap factory built; we might not be talking a full 20 years of profiting from the invention. But in certain areas, innovation can happen quickly; if you patented a web browser technology in 2005, it's still patented now, for example. And that problem is amplified by the number of patent trolls filing "junk patents" on things that already have prior art, hoping the patent office reviewer doesn't know about the prior art and gives them the patent anyway, or filing extremely broad patents, i.e. "if you click this Buy Now button, you automatically buy it and will get it shipped to you, and you don't have to go through a confirmation page". Patents shouldn't be issued for things like, "what if we put four columns on the front page of our newspaper instead of three?", but for things that require significant design work.

The 20 year case can also be problematic with medicine; 20 years of exclusivity is a long time before less expensive generics can reach the market. If we assume a capitalist model of funding medical research (another topic of debate), I see why a certain period of exclusivity makes sense as research isn't cheap, but for things like RNA vaccines or cures for the common cold, that are widely adopted, the amount of money that the original creator receives can be astronomical. Some of that covers failed research efforts in other areas, but from a public health and affordability-of-healthcare perspective, a shorter term could be beneficial.
 
When discussing intellectual property, there are differences in how that works between the Common Law sphere of the world, and the not-Common Law one. Tends to have implications for things like the US "fair use" provision etc. But the premises for a discussion might vary a bit?
 
There is no nuance in my point of view on this matter. :rolleyes:

Intellectual property = extension of the private property lie = just another way to justify power inequalities.

Like WTF this or that idea belongs to you?
Did you suck it out of your own thumb really?
(like no help at all? No parents, no teachers no peers?)

The so called "innovative people" are just "thieves" and "parasites".
Do I need to bring in example like the theft of central american (medicinal) knowledge by shark (north american) med-labs?

Listen guys, the blue color in the sky belongs to me. :yup:
Please donate 1$ every time you look up!
 
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Listen guys, the blue color in the sky belongs to me. :yup:
Please donate 1$ every time you look up!

Damn, if only I was smart mega genius like you coming up with innovative ideas such as “looking up”. Clearly I am stupid and this is why I am not a millionaire. This is a sensible system to run our planet with.
 
There is no nuance in my point of view on this matter. :rolleyes:

Intellectual property = extension of the private property lie = just another way to justify power inequalities.

Like WTF this or that idea belongs to you?
Did you suck it out of your own thumb really?
(like no help at all? No parents, no teachers no peers?)

The so called "innovative people" are just "thieves" and "parasites".
Do I need to bring in example like the theft of central american (medicinal) knowledge by shark (north american) med-labs?

Listen guys, the blue color in the sky belongs to me. :yup:
Please donate 1$ every time you look up!

Imagine you're an author. You write a book and then someone copies it and prints their own copy.

Takes a long time to write a reasonable sized book or novel.
 
Damn, if only I was smart mega genius like you coming up with innovative ideas such as “looking up”. Clearly I am stupid and this is why I am not a millionaire. This is a sensible system to run our planet with.
You can also tweet (X) for free!
... As long as I can sell a direct entry to your brain to whoever will buy it :nya:
So smart and mutually beneficial :smug:
 
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Imagine you're an author. You write a book and then someone copies it and prints their own copy.

Takes a long time to write a reasonable sized book or novel.
I understand you are talking about arts.
Arts have traditionally been a craft that did not generate (much) wealth for its authors. Did Rabelais write Gargantua for the moneys? (no)
Artists in the past were generally street beggars... Unless they got royal orders in rare cases.

With the avent of audio (later video) recording, it has become a matter of mass production (and mass consumption)
So lotsa moneys for the sharks.

The wealthier the artist, the poorer the arts imo.
Bestsellers :vomit:

Imagine I need to write a book as a job (with a boss and a deadline lol)
Imagine I am free to write a book without time/money questions...

Tangent
Spoiler :
Some of the most well known great artists worked under a strong constrain : not the money one but the parental one (vicious ain't it?)
Examples: WA Mozart, Mickael Jackson.


Conclusion: Money does not benefit to Arts.
Don't listen to 'Joy' or you'll die of shame :mad:

+ Artists should not eat too much. It spoils their creativity :D
 
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Imagine you're an author. You write a book and then someone copies it and prints their own copy.

Takes a long time to write a reasonable sized book or novel.
You know how much money authors don't make, right?

It's complicated, because sometimes IP rights are the only answer an author has to someone (normally a company) stealing their work. But also sometimes transference of those rights is what enables their work to be stolen (by contractual shenanigans), so.

It's very much not "someone takes it and prints their own copy". Printing costs money. Sinking money on the hope people will buy your name instead of theirs is an unpopular tactic; grifts go for low-effort, high-return.
 
You know how much money authors don't make, right?

It's complicated, because sometimes IP rights are the only answer an author has to someone (normally a company) stealing their work. But also sometimes transference of those rights is what enables their work to be stolen (by contractual shenanigans), so.

It's very much not "someone takes it and prints their own copy". Printing costs money. Sinking money on the hope people will buy your name instead of theirs is an unpopular tactic; grifts go for low-effort, high-return.

MIn point is if you invent something, wrote a book etc I'm fine with you making money off it.

I'm not so fine a corporation buys it and gets it exclusive for the next near century.
 
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