Should it be harder for Asians to get into good schools?

[Flying Pig]

Most 'normal' interviews, as I keep saying, make it impossible to distinguish between mediocre candidates who prepared very hard for that particular interview and will struggle if required to maintain that standard over their course and their careers, and students who will have no problem doing that.

Hence why we have those questions I mentioned before, for which you can't really prepare - so they're a test of how well the student thinks on his feet, which seperates the two categories.

 

[aelf]

You can still prepare for them. If you're thinking that preparation entails only memorisation of set answers, then I can see why you don't get what I'm talking about. Well-designed tests can't be studied for by simply memorising set answers either.

 

[Flying Pig]

You can still prepare for them. If you're thinking that preparation entails only memorisation of set answers, then I can see why you don't get what I'm talking about. Well-designed tests can't be studied for by simply memorising set answers either.

Precisely. I think we're making pretty much the same point here.

 

[Pangur Bán]

There's more to getting in a good university than passing a test. The top universities have long interview processes that they use to filter out poor candidates.

Yes, as a privately run university is compelled to. The poor do not make good donations.

 

[Murky]

Yes, as a privately run university is compelled to. The poor do not make good donations.

You might have misunderstood. By "poor" in that context, I meant less qualified, not that the person was economically "poor." You can be rich and be stupid. Just look at Rick Perry or George W. Bush.

 

[Pangur Bán]

You might have misunderstood. By "poor" in that context, I meant less qualified, not that the person was economically "poor." You can be rich and be stupid. Just look at Rick Perry or George W. Bush.

Erm...those guys get filtered out? Bush's wealth and family status got him into Harvard and Yale.

I think the misunderstood (actually suspected your intention) meaning was probably better ... though in fairness I respect the graduate interviews colleges like Cornell conduct.

 

[aelf]

Precisely. I think we're making pretty much the same point here.

Well, the 'normal' tests that I've come across are not that horribly designed and can't just be prepared for through pure memorisation, although that might be partly because I've been studying humanities and social sciences for the last several years.

 

[Murky]

Erm...those guys get filtered out? Bush went to Harvard and Yale.

I think the misunderstood (actually suspected your intention) meaning was probably better ... though in fairness I respect the graduate interviews colleges like Cornell conduct.

Well, one of the things that can get you into Harvard or Yale is having a very important parent. It's kind of hard to say no to the President of the United States.

An interesting tidbit about Bush from wikipedia

Education

Bush attended public schools in Midland, Texas until the family moved to Houston after he completed seventh grade. He then went to The Kinkaid School, a prep school in Houston, for two years.[19]

Bush finished high school at Phillips Academy, a boarding school (then all-male) in Andover, Massachusetts, where he played baseball and during his senior year was the head cheerleader.[20][21] Bush attended Yale University from 1964 to 1968, graduating with an A.B. in history.[22] During this time, he was a member of Delta Kappa Epsilon, being elected the fraternity's president during his senior year.[23][24] Bush also became a member of the Skull and Bones society as a senior.[25] Bush was a keen rugby union player, and was on Yale's 1st XV.[26] He characterized himself as an average student.[27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush#Education

And Rick Perry

Perry graduated from Paint Creek High School in 1968. He then attended Texas A&M University, where he was a member of the Corps of Cadets, a member of the Alpha Gamma Rho fraternity, was elected senior class social secretary, and was also elected as one of A&M's five yell leaders (a popular Texas A&M tradition analogous to male cheerleaders).[13] Perry graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor of Science in animal science[14] with a 2.5 GPA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Perry

 

[Gogf]

Yes. The purpose of higher education is to control how well certain ethnic groups do in our society, and apparently the Asians are doing too well*, so they should have a hard time getting into college.

*ref: various technocratic groups that decide these things, such as college admissions boards.

 

[Flying Pig]

Well, the 'normal' tests that I've come across are not that horribly designed and can't just be prepared for through pure memorisation, although that might be partly because I've been studying humanities and social sciences for the last several years.

And therefore they're not the 'normal' tests I was talking about. When I was young, you could get through a lot of history exams, for example, by memorising names, dates and the like, English exams by learning lots of grammar, quotes and occasionally your teacher's opinion on a text, and so on.

Yes. The purpose of higher education is to control how well certain ethnic groups do in our society, and apparently the Asians are doing too well*, so they should have a hard time getting into college.

I'm calling sarcasm, but I can't really tell.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Well, one of the things that can get you into Harvard or Yale is having a very important parent. It's kind of hard to say no to the President of the United States.

Of course, this is no secret. My fellow Europeans are used to sort of suspecting that this happens at their universities, but not really embracing it because really it's all an unprovable conspiracy. You have to teach them that this is done rather openly and unapologeticallyy at US private universities, and is largely regarded as acceptable practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences

Places like Yale are basically rich finishing schools whose only pretence of academic excellence--legitimizing their own social reproduction-- comes from letting in a select group of top students.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Looking on You Tube for the Simpsons Johnny Rainbow song. Hilarious, but can't find it in English (c/f Juanito Arcoiris).

 

[Gogf]

I'm going to object to this "tests don't actually measure intelligence" theory because I think it's actually the "intelligence is an ineffable thing that simply cannot be measured or perceived in any way" theory, which really amounts to an attempt to define intelligence so narrowly that it's completely unfalsifiable, so that no one can ever tell you that you don't have it.

 

[downtown]

I'm going to object to this "tests don't actually measure intelligence" theory because I think it's actually the "intelligence is an ineffable thing that simply cannot be measured or perceived in any way" theory, which really amounts to an attempt to define intelligence so narrowly that it's completely unfalsifiable, so that no one can ever tell you that you don't have it.

A test on intelligence should be fairly irrelevant to an admissions process, really. You want a test that demonstrates your ability to perform college level work. Does the ACT measure up to that? Not really.

The issue isn't that we have an assessment, it's that we use bad ones.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The top schools, at least, want people who are going to be successful. That means they're smart, yes, but it also means they have test-taking ability, personal skills, ambition, and a whole lot of other things.

A top school that admits only poor bright students will produce lots of extremely intelligent banks clerks and school teachers. In a world where social advancement comes from who you know and who knows and respects you, the safest bet even for a public European school is to have a preference for the children of the rich and well-connected (even if they do badly, daddy or uncle Clifford will still get them a good banker or trading job). And conveniently enough those same people can afford the best high school education, so you don't even had to do it openly.

But even for the poor smart folks, admittance of those people is essential for developing the right contacts, while for the rich they get to share the strong academic record and meritocratic facade offered by the academically strong students.

 

[Flying Pig]

A top school that admits only poor bright students will produce lots of extremely intelligent banks clerks and school teachers

And, in today's world, businessmen, politicians, military officers... merit goes a long way nowadays, you know, not to mention having a degree from a top university.

 

[Pangur Bán]

And, in today's world, businessmen, politicians, military officers... merit goes a long way nowadays, you know, not to mention having a degree from a top university.

It's not like anyone benefiting from the system would ever say "I got where I am through privilege, nepotism, networking skills, superior access to power and better knowledge of elite social culture". Obviously merit is the vital factor.

 

[Quackers]

Where can I get better knowledge of elite social culture?

 

[aelf]

And therefore they're not the 'normal' tests I was talking about. When I was young, you could get through a lot of history exams, for example, by memorising names, dates and the like, English exams by learning lots of grammar, quotes and occasionally your teacher's opinion on a text, and so on.

That was back then.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Where can I get better knowledge of elite social culture?

Go talk to someone at the Bullingdon Club and ask one of the Buller Boys if you can hang with them for a while in exchange for some service of some kind.


Maybe if you get a friend those meritocratic supermen-to-be would want to bet on a game of Russian roulette or something.

:suicide: :suicide: