Should the Confederacy rise again?

[Bozo Erectus]

If the Confederacy 'rose again' and successfully (peacefully) seceded from the US, overall, do you think this would be a good development for the world, or bad? What impact on the burning global issues of today would it have if there were two competing 'American' North American states?

 

[storealex]

I don't like the idea. Rather an independant California + Oregon + Washington.

 

[Atlas14]

Not yet it shouldn't. If Hillary gets elected (which she won't) then it should. Otherwise seceding for no reason other than grudges from the 1960s is pointless.

 

[Che Guava]

There's no need for a US divided 'neatly' in two. A national focus on decentralization and state autonomy would address differences without major divisions...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

No. "The South Will Rise Again" is just an American inside joke, nothing more. Unfortunately there's still some people who believe in it die-hard, but there's not enough of those people to cause something stupid to happen.

 

[Gilder]

It's a horrible idea. Anyone who thinks it's a wonderful idea is just deluding themselves.

 

[JohnRM]

Well, I don't think that the "South" is the same place that it was 150 years ago. New Orleans, for its part, would be far better off under the Federal Gov't. However, if you look at the flow of money in the United States, it is the northern states and the western states that have the money and the "South" that is constantly drawing it in. The "South", as it is today, cannot exist in its current state without the financial support of the rest of the country. Texas is somewhat of an exception to that rule, but just barely, and it cannot support the rest of the "South" on its own.

However, some of the most important issues should that situation arise...

The fate of the US Naval Station at Mayport and King's Bay (South) which host some of America's nuclear ballistic missile fleet and other naval and marine stations, such as Paris Island MRD. There are many airbases and army bases that are vital to national defense that would be affected. The "South" would be probably be far too poor to sustain any significant military so it would go north.

The new, long border becomes an issue. Does it get fortified?

I think that in the end, a Northern Union would be far more powerful and dangerous than the current United States.

 

[skadistic]

No. "The South Will Rise Again" is just an American inside joke, nothing more. Unfortunately there's still some people who believe in it die-hard, but there's not enough of those people to cause something stupid to happen.

You have just been added to the list of people not to be trusted when the right honorable confederacy rises up to reclaim its glory.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You have just been added to the list of people not to be trusted when the right honorable confederacy rises up to reclaim its glory.

I thought we had already established this in the American Revolution thread, when I said I wasn't too fond of insurrections, and would have probably been a Tory.

 

[Bast]

The only place the Old South shall rise again will be on the silver screen:

 

[puglover]

What would be the benefit of the Confederacy rising again?

 

[theimmortal1]

Um Texas and Florida are two of the biggest and most productive states in the country.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well thought out post John

Well, I don't think that the "South" is the same place that it was 150 years ago.

Agreed. A new 'Confederacy' might have new core states, and old ones may stay with the Union if the seperation were taking place today.

New Orleans, for its part, would be far better off under the Federal Gov't.

Theoretically but seriously, from what we've seen so far, maybe thats not true at all. Theres no doubt though that there would be few if any funds available to save New Orleans in currents location.

However, if you look at the flow of money in the United States, it is the northern states and the western states that have the money and the "South" that is constantly drawing it in.

Agreed.

The "South", as it is today, cannot exist in its current state without the financial support of the rest of the country. Texas is somewhat of an exception to that rule, but just barely, and it cannot support the rest of the "South" on its own.

Agreed again.

However, some of the most important issues should that situation arise...

The fate of the US Naval Station at Mayport and King's Bay (South) which host some of America's nuclear ballistic missile fleet and other naval and marine stations, such as Paris Island MRD. There are many airbases and army bases that are vital to national defense that would be affected. The "South" would be probably be far too poor to sustain any significant military so it would go north.

You raise an important issue, the nuclear assets. That could be a thorny issue. but if the former Soviet states could come up with an amicable solution to the problem, I suppose we could too.

The new, long border becomes an issue. Does it get fortified?

Would that really be necessary? Im not talking about a new Civil War, merely a Civil Disunion. A peaceful, mutual decision to separate. We would definitely be rivals, but wouldnt have to be enemies.

I think that in the end, a Northern Union would be far more powerful and dangerous than the current United States.

The Union would be a lean, mean Liberal machine, yes, but why do you think we'd be more 'dangerous'?

The Confederate States would be much poorer than they are today, yes. But theyd be free to pursue their conservative agenda without encumbrance from the North, and the Union would be free to pursue its Liberal one. No more dysfunctional fighting and bickering between the Mommy Party and the Daddy Party. Free at last!

 

[theimmortal1]

The Union would be a lean, mean Liberal machine, yes, but why do you think we'd be more 'dangerous'?

The Confederate States would be much poorer than they are today, yes. But theyd be free to pursue their conservative agenda without encumbrance from the North, and the Union would be free to pursue its Liberal one. No more dysfunctional fighting and bickering between the Mommy Party and the Daddy Party. Free at last!

Then wouldn't the south be rich and the north poor? Socialism brings poverty, capitalism brings riches.

The wealth generaters in the North, West, and even South surely aren't liberal socialists for the most part. What makes you think they will stay in the North or West? Surely they would move to the South which would have much lower taxes (personal and corporate), less governmental regulation, and generally many more freedoms. But oh noes you may not be able to have an abortion

 

[Che Guava]

Then wouldn't the south be rich and the north poor? Socialism brings poverty, capitalism brings riches.

That's a pretty narrow view, ain't it?

The wealth generaters in the North, West, and even South surely aren't liberal socialists for the most part. What makes you think they will stay in the North or West? Surely they would move to the South which would have much lower taxes (personal and corporate), less governmental regulation, and generally many more freedoms. But oh noes you may not be able to have an abortion

And yet there seems to be an inordinate amount of corporate liberals giving thier money away to charities.

Besides, if all of a company's assets and infrastructure are in the north, it wouldn't be worth it to move it all south for a tax break...

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Immortal, without the North paying all the bills, the South would no longer have the luxury of demonizing the concept of taxation. Rest assured, before you know it, the tax rate would probably be higher than in the North.

 

[theimmortal1]

And yet there seems to be an inordinate amount of corporate liberals giving thier money away to charities.

Besides, if all of a company's assets and infrastructure are in the north, it wouldn't be worth it to move it all south for a tax break...

Halliburton just moved to Dubai for a tax break. Tons of companies move to get into a better environment all the time.

A completly liberal socialist north would raise taxes to no end. NYC would surely not be the financial capital of the world. Many firms would surely move. I wouldn't be surprised if some European firms moved to the south also.

The south would be a politically stable economically free nation. That is VERY enticing for wealth generators.

Plus many of you are making the South out to be some poor farm land. Florida and Texas are two of the most important states as it is. Georgia is pretty strong. The Carolinas are pretty strong. The only real 'dead weight' would be the Alabamas, Missippissis, Arkansas etc. But the North has some dead weight in the MidWest also. And its not like Montana, ND, SD, Wyoming etc are really tearing it up also.

 

[skadistic]

Where is the automotive industry located right now? Its not Detroit. Its in the south where the jap and euros are building plants.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You mean the rip roaring US auto industry? The South can have it if it wants. Right now do we really care that almost everything in our homes and the clothes on our backs are made in China or somewhere else in Asia? So why should we care if Japanese cars are manufactured in the South?

 

[Shadylookin]

I don't think it's a good idea because it will bring a lot of messy separation issues.

The south is a popular destination in the winter for it's relative warmth. What would we do with those people that had property in the union and in the confederacy. will they get dual citizenship? will border crossing have lax regulations like our Canadian border or will we have to jump through a lot of hoops to travel?

Military wise the issue of who gets our vast weaponry is a big deal and I don't feel that we should be giving it to the confederacy and I'm sure they would feel otherwise.

do you think this would be a good development for the world, or bad?

well the union would be less inclined to go to war and the south wouldn't have the ability. So if you feel a less militarily powerful US is good for the world(which i don't) then it's better.

What impact on the burning global issues of today would it have if there were two competing 'American' North American states?

I don't think there would be much competition at all. The south cannot sustain itself as it is without government assistance. The union would dominate in almost every aspect while the south would straggle behind since it has a history of backwardness when it comes to accepting social change.