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should the us be in the game

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Karl Townsend, Jan 12, 2006.

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  1. Yooka

    Yooka Chieftain

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    Agreed. But he's got you with modern wonders.


    Ok, then slight correction. Everyone who knows anything about International Militaries knows West Point.

    I'll agree with than, in general. That too many Americans don't learn enough about the rest of the world, or have enough respect. Trying to bring this back to the original point, are you then saying that it shouldn't be included in the game? That The US isn't a profound or influential enough civ to deserve representation? If not, what are your requirements that the US has yet to acheive.
     
  2. Meffy

    Meffy humanoid skunk

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    @g.neuman: Years pass; spellings, never well established in the first place, change. :) "Raccoon" was originally spelled by the colonists "rahaughcum."

    We have no weaponry, no spies, some beer but few natural resources save the silver from centuries' worth of shipwrecks off our shore. No, we're going for a cultural victory against the United States (or "Greater Croatan," as Americans should get used to calling it). But that's another story for another thread; beg pardon.
     
  3. g.neuman

    g.neuman Far Out Space Nut

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    We're still invading; we need your Beer resource to build our "Spring Break Wet T-Shirt Contest" national wonder.


    G
     
  4. Orca

    Orca Warlord

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    No, personally i do care much more about game play. Since this doesnt harm game play at all its fine.

    However many arguments pro America/US in the game look very biased to me.
    From a historical point of view you just have to admit that America/US is a very young country. To me those comparisions America/US to other countries in the game made by some people are weird, the history of those is totally different. The most important difference concerning the game is that the roots of many today Americans are European.

    From an objectiv non american view there is really not much need for any other 'American' wonders beside 'The Statue of Liberty' to have in the game. For example 'West Point' or 'The Three Gorges Damm' (i guess its in the US ?) might be very famous inside America but they arent outside. Thus to argument with those things pro America/US seems again odd for anyone not living in the US.

    For me there is just one good objectiv argument left to have Americans in the game. That is America/US has a dominant position in nowadays world in science,trade and military makes it one of the most important countries for todays world.
    The question is, is that enough to put it in the game ? I have severe doubts with that because the games focus lies on developing an empire through the ages and considering this the time period America/US exists is just too short.
    Note that from a historical view im not too glad to see civs like Germany either in the game, however this doesnt change anything considering America.

    So why did Firaxis put Americans in the game ? Because there is a very strong argument for it which is.
    'Im proud of my country and I want to be able to play as it'
    I dont think there is anything wrong with that but you should be aware that many of the other arguments are only existing for American people.
     
  5. Meffy

    Meffy humanoid skunk

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  6. Armorydave

    Armorydave Prince

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    Three Gorges Dam is in China not the US and I do not believe it is fully operational. Personally, I would think West Point is about as famous as the other National Wonders (not World, National). /shrug

    Seems obvious that it belongs in the game as a majority of consumers are probably Americans. That almost certainly trumps the belief of what is probably a small minority that the US is not worthy from a historical standpoint. If you wish to purchase a game that is not Euro-American centric, I would suggest buying one that is not made by Euro-American companies and designed for Euro-American consumers.
     
  7. Stinson

    Stinson Chieftain

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    Yes, but kids these days think they're "too cool" to care.
     
  8. kgbuller

    kgbuller Chieftain

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    And believe it or not, the United States may be the youngest nation in the game, but it has the oldest Government in the world. That's saying something...
     
  9. Black Guard

    Black Guard Chieftain

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    Basically, they dont need to be in the game, just that americans made the game and put things in it so thats the reason. they most likely didnt even have this conversation. Just drew up a list and stuck it in the game with the rest of the features.
     
  10. gmanne

    gmanne Safe One

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    Which is worse? The guy who thinks Three Gorges is in the USofA, or the guy who proves its not by using an un-refereed open-sourced web-library. ;)
    Trust people? Trust Wiki.

    Moreover, we must include 'America'! What other country in the world has gone to war with Canada, and lost.
     
  11. Black Guard

    Black Guard Chieftain

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    And they do teach us history, just not american history. Cos its too short. lol

    Was independance day on 4th July 1776?
     
  12. Meffy

    Meffy humanoid skunk

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    gmanne, you may sleep easy tonight. If that were my only source I'd not have posted it. But it happens to agree with other sources for which I invite anyone interested to google.

    I think the Principality of Sealand should be in some future expansion set. It has a grand tradition of... well, of sitting in the English Channel and repulsing invasion.

    http://www.sealandgov.com/

    Or you could check Wikipedia if you dared to trust open source. :-}

    P.S.: An ancestor of my mate was instrumental in defeating the nascent USA in their try at a piece of Canada. As a fan of Canadian beer I must say I'm glad it's a separate nation up there. Best regards to those north of the proverbial border! *salute*
     
  13. samwiser

    samwiser Chieftain

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    Persia does indeed still exist, and it has, to its own people, the same name it has had since time immemorial: IRAN. Persia was the name given to the country by the West (much like how Japan is actually Nippon to its people) and about fifty years ago or so the country officially asked the international community to refer to it by its maiden name, Iran.


    ----
     
  14. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    If Michael Jordan only played for 4-5 seasons, but won a scoring title, MVP, All-star MVP, and got the team a championship in every season he played, revolutionized the game and became a cultural icon (these are very close to his CV, just a bit exaggerated), but then suddenly retired for whatever reason, he would still likely be considered a Hall-of-Famer or one of the best 50 players.

    Longetivity (and seniority) of a civ is a factor, but it's not the only factor to be considered a significant civ. Dominance and strong influence, in military or cultural areas, are probably much more important. People don't put the name of a regular housewife that lives long (no disrespect here) in the history, but people like Joan-of-Arc will be historical figures and remembered for long.
     
  15. abj

    abj Chieftain

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    Please, I don't even think it is close to being debatable of the civilizations in the game, which one had the biggest, combined impact in the industrial and subsequent ages. CivIV is moreso about the ages and the technologies/weaponry/buildings associated to it, not to some numerical value for years. One would probably associate the Romans with the Classical, but who would you associate with the industrial age and forward? China? The post-Meiji Japan? 1890-1945 Germany? If you want to "develop" a nation, why not choose a country that within 130 years after its conception, grew to the Superpower level of international influence? One cannot deny the massive impact of the States politically, culturally, and militarily on the later ages that the game models. The only other civilization that can claim to such a rapid growth would be the Spanish, after their dependence of New World gold.

    America is clearly in the game for its dominance in recent ages, not just because the game was developed there. If CivIV ended magically at the end of the medievel age, sure America doesn't deserve to be there, but for a game that includes modern ages? It would be absurd to omit them.
     
  16. Meffy

    Meffy humanoid skunk

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    Apropos of medieval and modern ages: Must admit I do miss the "costuming through the ages" when meeting leaders in Civ III. Lincoln looked decent in bronze-age garb.
     
  17. shadow2k

    shadow2k Emperor

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    War of 1812? That was a war with Britain.
     
  18. Gogf

    Gogf Indescribable

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    1. The American revolution occured in the 1770's and '80s, not 1600.
    2. Every nation on earth was born from colonists from other areas, if you go back far enough.
    3. There was no England, France, Spain, Russia, Rome, Mali, etc. in 4000BC.
    4. Civilization IV is an alternative history game. It assumes that all civilizations in the game were born at the same time, although they were not.

    Now, on a purely theoretical basis, yes, the United States should be in the game. The only arguable rival of the current United States in terms of military and economic power is the Roman Empire. It would be ridiculous not to include it in the game.
     
  19. allnamestaken12

    allnamestaken12 Chieftain

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    The Three Gorges Dam (I guess its in U.S.?)
    Yes, of course foreigners know MORE about China then people from the U.S.
    The U.S. was one of the first wildly successful republics, and has become an impressive world power in the last century. Besides, if it wasn't for America, who would the europeans have borrowed from after they bashed each other's brains in in WWI, and who would have given them the marshall plan to keep europe from becoming known as the politburo continent? Keeping the U.S. out of this game is like keeping Rome out.
     
  20. jar2574

    jar2574 Prince

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    1) Largest military power in the history of the world.
    2) 3rd largest population in the world.
    3) 3rd largest land mass in the world.
    4) An economic GDP of roughly 1/5 of the world's current total.
    5) A GDP per capita second only to Luxembourg
    6) Immeasurable cultural influence in the modern world.
    7) The oldest functioning national written constitution, and first large-scale Republic.
    8) The country with the most scientific advances in the past century.


    It would be silly to leave out a country with all of these characteristics.

    The current anti-American sentiment prevelant in many parts of the world should not obscure the fact that America will go down in history as a world power on the scale of Rome or the British Empire.
     
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