Sinners and saints

[Aphex_Twin]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
Ok, Aphex, I'll answer the basic tennants of you question, only because the answers, thus far, make me cringe.

---snip---

There, I hope that answers your questions. Flame away!

Thank you for clearing some things up. It's not a case if you can't beat them, join them, or if you don't want to join them, beat them. I just wanted to understand that little better.

I will always have a problem with the Christian outlook that all people are sinners. Also I have a problem with the fact that "good", "moral", even Christ-like people, who happend to be in the "wrong" faith will roast in hell. Of course, even among Christianity there are diferent views about Heaven and Hell and/or Purgatory. Which has led me to conclude that Christianity has more to do with culture, education and morals than with actual Truth. But I think we can agree that we can continue arguing and presenting our version of this "truth" so as, in the end, the real thing will prevail (wether it's mine, yours, or a greater, all-encompasing version).

--End of flame--

 

[Turner]

Well, growing up I always thought of sin as doing wrong in the church's eyes. So if it wasn't approved, or more correctly, if it was disapproved by the church, then it would be a sin.

Now, however, I see sin as doing something that's against your moral and ethical beliefs. If you're not being true to yourself and your beliefs, it's a sin.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin
A few question for Christians and not only.

What constitutes a sin?

Gluttony, sloth, greed, jealousy, vanity, wrath, and pride.

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin
Can a "sinner" who repents in the very last moment of his life enjoy heaven, while a "saint" who would slip at the same time would be granted the grill treatment?

None of the above. The dead are dead. The only life after death the the Bible mentions is resurrection to either life eternal in a body on earth, or to judgement and final, irreversible death. (Well, except for 144,000 people who will assist Jesus in running the earth. They'll do that as spirit beings in heaven.)

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin
How "evil" must one be in order to go to hell?

Don't have to be evil at all, everyone who dies will go to Sheol, the grave.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin


I will always have a problem with the Christian outlook that all people are sinners.

It is a psychological way to submit yourself to a higher ''human" authority. and a way to do mass control.

If you feel guilty, feel like someone who is natively wrong, feel like a dirty person, feel guilty about sexual desire, then you are a very maleable mind and easy to control and dominate. Thats one of the nastyest way of controling poeple, mix up their mind with poisonous word which affect incounsiousness.

I am very proud to say that i succeeded in getting those religious archetype out of my mind. Now i can fly much higher, insteed of crawling like a wimp.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Turner_727
Well, growing up I always thought of sin as doing wrong in the church's eyes. So if it wasn't approved, or more correctly, if it was disapproved by the church, then it would be a sin.

Now, however, I see sin as doing something that's against your moral and ethical beliefs. If you're not being true to yourself and your beliefs, it's a sin.

Sin is neither doing whats wrong in the chruchs' eyes nor doing something against your moral and ethical beliefs. Sin is going against the nature of God. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Read the book of Romans; you'll get a good taste of what sin is there.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin


Thank you for clearing some things up. It's not a case if you can't beat them, join them, or if you don't want to join them, beat them. I just wanted to understand that little better.



--End of flame--

Well, I'm glad I was able to clear a few things up for you. Thank you for being congenial about the matter.

--CK

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Tassadar



It is a psychological way to submit yourself to a higher ''human" authority. and a way to do mass control.

If you feel guilty, feel like someone who is natively wrong, feel like a dirty person, feel guilty about sexual desire, then you are a very maleable mind and easy to control and dominate. Thats one of the nastyest way of controling poeple, mix up their mind with poisonous word which affect incounsiousness.

I am very proud to say that i succeeded in getting those religious archetype out of my mind. Now i can fly much higher, insteed of crawling like a wimp.

Yup, we're all a bunch of mind numbed, wimpy robots. Something that will be impossible for you to see or understand is how liberating and refreshing faith in Jesus Christ can bring to your life. I'm sorry you probably will never experience it.

I will never understand fully people's hatred for things that are good and love for things of depravity. Well, that's not entirely true. I intellectually understand it: it is pointedly examined and described in the Bible. Emotionally, I will never quite understand.

I guess it's sort of like that Billy Joel song, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints." What he's saying is that he believes it's much more fun living in 'sin' than supposedly being some kind of 'saint'. Yeah, sure, sin is almost always fun for a season, but we see the dastardly dark side of the consequences of sin every day. Most of us are just too embarrassed, naive, or don't care enough to admit it.

I would venture to say basically all of the problems you would name about society are a result of sin. God doesn't describe a 'better way of living' just to make a bunch of supposed rules for us to make us miserable in life. It is actually to protect us from our own depravity and the results of our poor decisions.

But, I'm just rambling and talking to a wall, throwing pearls to the swine as it were. Oops, did I say that? Pardon me.

--CK

 

[Turner]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken


Sin is neither doing whats wrong in the chruchs' eyes nor doing something against your moral and ethical beliefs. Sin is going against the nature of God. I'm not sure how else to describe it. Read the book of Romans; you'll get a good taste of what sin is there.

Sorry. . . disagree with you on this.

I don't believe in an all-powerful omniscent omnipotent god. But I do believe that there is a difference between 'wrong' and 'sin'. 'God' really has nothing to do with it. . . I suppose one could more accurately call it karma, but it's still different.

But back to your first point. Does not the church pass down the word of god? Therefore, wouldn't something the church not approve of be more or less against the word of god? Because would the church not understand the nature of god? (at least as it was presented to them?)

 

[Double Barrel]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
I would venture to say basically all of the problems you would name about society are a result of sin. God doesn't describe a 'better way of living' just to make a bunch of supposed rules for us to make us miserable in life. It is actually to protect us from our own depravity and the results of our poor decisions.

Well said!

 

[Kinniken]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
You go to hell, I go to hell, Ghandi goes to hell, Billy Graham goes to hell if we all do not acknowledge that we are all sinners and need the salvation of Jesus Christ and the Grace of God.

The salvation of Jesus Christ or merely acknowledging that we cannot save ourselves and need a God to do that? In other words, can someone born in a remote tribe in an island somewhere with no contact to civilization be saved? And can a young muslim born in a conservative Saudi family be saved if he never convert?

 

[Speedo]

The salvation of Jesus Christ or merely acknowledging that we cannot save ourselves and need a God to do that? In other words, can someone born in a remote tribe in an island somewhere with no contact to civilization be saved? And can a young muslim born in a conservative Saudi family be saved if he never convert?

Christ is the door that you must go through to get to God.

There is a passage in the Bible (can't recall exactly where) something to the effect of "if no one goes to spread the word, the very rocks will cry out to tell it." I personally believe that either (a)everyone will just somehow know or realize the message about Christ, so they have an opportunity to be saved. It doesn't require missionaries or going to church, or even reading the Bible. Or, (b) if they don't hear it at all on earth, and (a) isn't true, after they die they hear the message and be given the opportunity to accept Christ.

Regarding children and etc, I believe that God knows the point in your life when you have heard enough about Christ to understand the message, and can then choose to accept or reject it.

 

[Pikachu]

Originally posted by Aphex_Twin
Can a "sinner" who repents in the very last moment of his life enjoy heaven, while a "saint" who would slip at the same time would be granted the grill treatment?

I think the church take faith way too seriously. In my opinion faith is only a tool to make people behave well. Faith is worthless if it doesn't lead to good behavior, and people who behave well anyway, doesn't even need faith.

I think the judgement is based on our deeds, but everybody will make mistakes. Therefore God has made it possible to undo mistakes. If you truly repent something, meaning that you would have done it differently if you could do it again, then God threats you as if you actually did it the way you now would have done it.

However it will not work to do something wrong and plan to repent afterwards, because the repent will then not be honest. You can't fool God! Because of the merci of God, the sinner who truly repents his wrongdoings in the very last moment can get into heaven and the saint who truly repents his good deeds can go to hell. I don't think the last one happens very often though.

Originally posted by Speedo
Christ is the door that you must go through to get to God.

True, but I think it is possible to go through that door without knowing that it is Christ.