Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Faustmouse]

Ok, good explaination here

So these are the new stats for the first set of civics.

Second set can be find here.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, to finally review the rest here... Again, I'm just sharing my impressions/opinions and they aren't taking into account the greater interactions between civic choices that may end up showing some necessary adjustments in the game after application.

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Economy
Communalism|0|0
Barter|0|0
Subsistence|-0| 0
Trade|10| 0
Guilds| 0| 0
Mercantile| 0| 0
Free Markets| 0| 0
Corporist|0| 0
Planned| 0| 0
Regulated|0| 0
Green| 0| 0

These all sound right. I like the touch on Trade - makes sense

My suggestions here:

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Military
Militia |-20| -20
Banditry| 30| -15|-20 seemed a little too strong but I get the premise of the negative fine.
Tribal Warfare| 10| 20
Conscription| 10| -10|I think the original resistance penalty too severe - they might be less likely to be good at resisting due to having been forced into service but they'd still have a lot of desire to get back to the lives they left behind so -10 would seem about right.
Mercenaries| 30| -30|The resistance penalty didn't make sense to me at first but the more I thought about it... they probably figure if they simply survive, even as a captive, they may be able to then get paid by the other side to fight again. Not the types to fight to the death, no. The capture bonus would be that they could hope to profit from the captives further.
Pacifism| 20| -50| I agree with your comments, thus they'd prefer to capture so should have a bonus there. The capture resistance penalty does make sense but may be a little too strong still.
Vassalage| 0| 10| Agreed on your comment. But oddly it does make some historical sense as Vassalage was used in two references, one for governmental order and one for military order. The mods seem to make sense to me.
Volunteer Army| 20| 30| I like it.
Unmanned Warfare| -50| 25| I wouldn't assume this means you wouldn't have manned units - just a HEAVY reliance on as many unmanned as you can. Unmanned would find capturing an added logistical problem so would probably prefer a scorched earth policy over taking POWs. The capture resistance... much less. Unmanned units shouldn't be capturable - if they are that's something we should stop enabling. But manned units under the civic would be still and perhaps less likely to give in considering they are so in-tune with the scorched earth policies they adapt - they'd be suspicious opponent armies would be just as careless for those who surrender.
Cloning| -30| 50|There'd be little value for life among a society that can replace their favorite pets or soldiers in a test tube. All would be viewed as sacrificable resources (they'd even tend to think of themselves this way) so would be yes, very resistant to capture, but also motivationless to capture opponents. No respect for their lives enough to spare them.
Time Drafting| 0| 0|I kinda like these time civics we unceremoniously got rid of... We have a time travel tech yet we don't want to envision the potential applications of it?

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Religion
Irreligion| 0| 0
Folklore| 0 |0
Divine Cult| 20| 10|Again, being suspect that they'd be put to use for the purposes of heathen religions would motivate religious soldiers to fight to the death.
Prophets| 10| 0
State Religion| 0| 10|Religious fervor among some soldiers would create greater resistance.
Free Church| 0| 0
Intolerant| -50| 30|Yep... slay the infidels and never give up. I like it.
Secular| 0| 0
Atheism| -10| -10|A void of religion would lend to a reduction in foundational moral ideals which would tend to mean there's less pride to resist capture(and more concern regarding the 'one life' the soldiers feel they have to live along with no concern about judgement in the 'afterlife'.) It would also tend to make the soldiers less likely to value the lives of their enemies.

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Education
Ignorance| 0| 0
Oral Tradition | 0| 0
Written Tradition| 0| 0
Military Tradition| 10| 15
Religenous Training | 5| 10
Apprenticeship| 0| 0
Corporate Education| 0| 0
Compulsory Education| 0| 0
Propaganda| 15| 25
E-Education| 0| 0
Timetrave Education| 0| 0| I'd also get rid of this one...

Halving these makes them seem more appropriate.

Welfare, Garbage, Language, Currency, Labor shouldn't influence Capturing chance at all IMO.
Agriculture... MAYBE. But adding capturing chances/restitences there seems a bit redundant.

Agreed.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The only other things to keep in mind is that there is currently the following adjustments

- looser is barbarian +15% chance of capture
- looser is in a city +5% chance of capture
- Slavery World View on +10% chance of capture
- Cannibalism on +0% chance of capture

Do these need changing?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I like those though I'd think Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice would increase by 10% and be made to be derived as a national modifier on the buildings that define these settings for the nation so it shows as part of the calculation.

And the city modifier should be based on buildings so it shows.

The barb one doesn't need to show but it is a shame we don't have a way... perhaps we need a Barbarian CC that gets auto-assigned to all barbs...

 

[Faustmouse]

@DH: Most certainly. IMO, it should be quite hard to get your first slaves but once you have one the slavery building would STRONGLY increase this. And while I like the barb modifier gameplay wise I think it should be the other way round: they prefer fighting over surrendering.

@TB: I have a look over your comments in more detail later, but at a first look I agree with (almost) all of them I think. Nice!
Shall I post the Promotions here next or should I calculate some examples first to see how these values add up?

 

[Faustmouse]

So these are the current values for civics. Unless someone has major objections, this will be how they will be implented after the release. Of course we can tweak them later if necessary!

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Government
Anarchism|-20|-30
Chiefdom|-5|-5
Despotism|-10| -15
Monarchy|10| 5
Republic| 10| 15
Theocracy| -10| 20
Democracy| 15| 25
Totalitarism|-15| -20|
Technocracy| 0| 10

Rule
Obedience |20| -20
City States| 5| 10
Magistrates| 0| -5
Meritocracy| -10| 20
Bureaucracy| -15| -15
Vassalage| 25| -10
Confederacy| 15| 5
Federal| -10| 0
Martial Law| 10| 15
Grid| 0| 50|Needs further discussion
Mind Control| 30| 100

Power
Strongman| 10| 10
Matriarchy| 20 |-10
Patriacrry| 10| 10
Junta| -20| 20
Souvereignity| 0| -10
Legislature| 10| -10
Divinge Right| 10| 30
Seperation of Powers| 0| 0| was -30/-20 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)
Single Party| -0| 0 | was -30/50 before TB suggested 0/0 (Needs further discussion)

Society
Primitive| -10| -10
Tribal | -10| 20
Caste| 10| 20
Bourgeois| 0| -30
Proletariat | 30| -20
Feudal| 20| 10
Egalitarian| 0| -20
Nationalist| 20| 30
Marxist| 10| 10
Corpor-Nation| 0| 0

Economy
Communalism|0|0
Barter|0|0
Subsistence|0| 0
Trade|10| 0
Guilds| 0| 0
Mercantile| 0| 0
Free Markets| 0| 0
Corporist|0| 0
Planned| 0| 0
Regulated|0| 0
Green| 0| 0

Military
Militia |-20| -20
Banditry| 30| -15
Tribal Warfare| 10| 20
Conscription| 10| -10
Mercenaries| 30| -30
Pacifism| 20| -40|
Vassalage| 0| 10|
Volunteer Army| 20| 30
Unmanned Warfare| -50| 25|
Cloning| -30| 50

Religion
Irreligion| 0| 0
Folklore| 0 |0
Divine Cult| 20| 10
Prophets| 10| 0
State Religion| 0| 10
Free Church| 0| 0
Intolerant| -50| 30
Secular| 0| 0
Atheism| -10| -10

Education
Ignorance| 0| 0
Oral Tradition | 0| 0
Written Tradition| 0| 0
Military Tradition| 10| 15
Religenous Training | 5| 10
Apprenticeship| 0| 0
Corporate Education| 0| 0
Compulsory Education| 0| 0
Propaganda| 15| 25
E-Education| 0| 0

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I like those though I'd think Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice would increase by 10% and be made to be derived as a national modifier on the buildings that define these settings for the nation so it shows as part of the calculation.

And the city modifier should be based on buildings so it shows.

The barb one doesn't need to show but it is a shame we don't have a way... perhaps we need a Barbarian CC that gets auto-assigned to all barbs...

The Slavery bonus is on the main building so no problems there. can do for the other buildings also.

We don't have a building that is in all cities. Perhaps we need one and perhaps it can hold other C2C stuff.

 

[Faustmouse]

Here is a list of the Promotions I considered changing the capturing chances.
However, I might (most certainly) gave modifiers to too much promotions.

If you want to review them, do you prefer to do it in the spreatsheet or do you want me to post them here in smaller sets?

[You can just ignore the TH Promotions for now until we cleaned up the messed future eras.]

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Slavery bonus is on the main building so no problems there. can do for the other buildings also.

We don't have a building that is in all cities. Perhaps we need one and perhaps it can hold other C2C stuff.

Perhaps, but I was thinking more along the lines of just doing away with the city modifier and allowing assignments to buildings that do already exist to enable some variances. Capture resistance variables could factor on a number of buildings, like housing for example. Where a building makes it easier to hide out after being injured, more capture resistance. Less capture resistance with defensive buildings where units often get trapped making a stand. etc...

Here is a list of the Promotions I considered changing the capturing chances.
However, I might (most certainly) gave modifiers to too much promotions.

If you want to review them, do you prefer to do it in the spreatsheet or do you want me to post them here in smaller sets?

[You can just ignore the TH Promotions for now until we cleaned up the messed future eras.]

I certainly don't mind either way. And yeah, probably best to not have this factor go on too many current promotions - far more useful as skill sets developable through their own NEW promotionlines. But it'll be interesting to see what promos you had in mind to adjust with these.

BTW: I'm figuring 5% capture = 20% combat modifier in AI selection value. Strong capture is a very powerful ability, not for the unit so much as for the nation itself. Resistance not as much because it doesn't make AS much a difference to a country if your units are captured after being already defeated anyways - so about 10% capture resistance would probably equate to the value of 5% combat modifier. But I'm thinking resistance is probably more rare to come by because it's not the sort of thing you'd go far out of the way to develop on your units since it'd be rather pessimistic about your odds of success and it wouldn't help you to succeed in combat to develop it. (Am I making any sense here?)

 

[Faustmouse]

Yes, the resistance thingy makes sense to me

So you say that a promo
+10% Strenght = +5% Capture and -10% Strenght?

Then the Civics will be most certainly adjusted soon. What I like to achive is to be able to develope 100% capture units. They could have a lot of - Strenght, I don't really care (thats where Catapults are for.)

Then I will keep the Promotions in the Google.doc. Feel free to comment on promos that (in your opinion) don't deserve modifiers.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Perhaps, but I was thinking more along the lines of just doing away with the city modifier and allowing assignments to buildings that do already exist to enable some variances. Capture resistance variables could factor on a number of buildings, like housing for example. Where a building makes it easier to hide out after being injured, more capture resistance. Less capture resistance with defensive buildings where units often get trapped making a stand. etc...

I would have thought that places to hide during the battle would increase the number of captives if you take the city or parts of it because you have more time to hunt them out after the battle.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes, the resistance thingy makes sense to me

So you say that a promo
+10% Strenght = +5% Capture and -10% Strenght?

More like:
+10% Strength = +10% Capture and -10% Strength
or
+20% Strength = +5% Capture

Something along those lines. If you were to develop a line of capture promos I'd set them at +10% Capture and -10% Strength and that should mean a net benefit which would equate to roughly the +10% Strength of the Combat promotion modifiers.

Seems strange I know but...

Think for a moment if you're looking to promote your unit. Let's say the unit already has something like three combat promotions (3 stars). You can choose a 4th star (another 10%) or a Submit promotion (or whatever we call this line) which gives you +10% Capture and -10% Strength.

Hard to say which you'd want right? That's because overall benefit-wise they're in balance. If your unit had a bit more strength it could stand to lose some and still be a really strong unit so maybe it might be best to take the 4th combat promotion then on the next promo the capture one... unless capturing is what this unit is really for in your opinion, perhaps the stack its in has some heavy hitting collateral and this guy's mostly just going to be for mopping up damaged units from here. Yeah, in this case definitely go for the Submit promo. This is how I consider things 'in-balance', when the decision is not going to be standardly obvious for every situation.

What I like to do mathematically with promos is to have Minor and Major lines. The major lines are accessed by unitcombats that are very much specifically good at that particular type of skill. Those I start at 10% then each step I add another 5% cumulatively so 10%, 15%, 20%, 25% for example.

Then the minor lines are for the unit types that CAN develop the ability but not with the same gusto as the specialists so that it becomes infrequently useful for some specialized applications or if the best promos are already all taken and we're just developing out a super promoted unit already. For those I start with 5% then add another 5% cumulative so 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%. All total, it ends up being 20% less at the maximum cap from the Major line.

Then I like to add a bonus at the last step or a slight gradually increasing benefit or reducing penalty as the line goes on. (If there's a rational tag to utilize for it anyhow.) A reward for taking the promotion all the way to the end of the line.

So it might be something like 10% Capture, -10% Combat at first, then 15% Capture, -10% Combat (getting a little better to take with each one), then 20% Capture, -10% Combat, then 25% Capture, -5% Combat, then 30% Capture, no combat penalty.

Just some suggestions...

Then the Civics will be most certainly adjusted soon. What I like to achive is to be able to develope 100% capture units. They could have a lot of - Strenght, I don't really care (thats where Catapults are for.)

Having a unit with over 100% capture should be rather possible with civic selections alone with what we've worked up so far shouldn't it? Then its up to your opponents to consider how to setup their civics to resist if they care to.

Then I will keep the Promotions in the Google.doc. Feel free to comment on promos that (in your opinion) don't deserve modifiers.

I'll take a look tomorrow morning.

I would have thought that places to hide during the battle would increase the number of captives if you take the city or parts of it because you have more time to hunt them out after the battle.

Good thinking but it would depend on the complexity or potential complexity of those hiding places being actually effective. Also, the battle isn't always over after one combat right? It's over once the city is taken. But I'll concede to your thinking to some extent.

So the more complex the housing, the more capable they would be at offering resistance, but they'd start with negative resistance at first and gradually improve into a positive. Better developed housing would leave room for troops to hide out in walls, ceilings, basements etc but simpler housing would be obvious places to corner the enemy when he's weak and injured.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I did some reviews and suggests on that doc but my brain's tired so I'll be back to do more later.

 

[Faustmouse]

Great review and awesome new promotion ideas!

I either: Changed promotions as you suggested without commenting, deleted the promotion entirely when you suggested 0/0 or left a comment (marked green) so you can easier re-review it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've replied to your replies, marking updated comments in reddish.

 

[Faustmouse]

So how should this be implented? In a seperate folder that only gives these two tags to civics/CC/Promotions; as tag in the "normal" file for Civics/CC/Promotions or as option?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe we should make it modular so that if people don't want the adjustments we've determined they can turn it off.

 

[Faustmouse]

Ok then I create a new folder in my modul and use the WofC (?) for it.

Edit:
Could you also go through the remaining green notes on the google doc?
iE, how do I make Flower Wars modular "weaker"?

 

[Nimek]

@DH

Did you played PAE V - Pie have similar slavery system to ours so you can grab some buttons or ideas.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have downloaded PEA V but not played it yet.