Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Hydromancerx]

@Faustmouse

Oh I also agree that Time Travel Education and Time Drafting should probably be removed. There are lots of future civics we can fill in instead. Such a Mind Uploading type learning, etc. But we can discuss this in the civics topic.

 

[Faustmouse]

Why would you give Technocray such a low capturing chance and a low resistance chance as well? (Just courious)

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll take a deeper look in a bit here.

 

[Yudishtira]

Why would you give Technocray such a low capturing chance and a low resistance chance as well? (Just courious)

Low capture because you don't care whether you get more people or not (as long as you get more gadgets and research lol). Low resistance because a technocracy is a mostly harmless kind of place to end up.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Except it depends on the state religion of the Theocracy. Zoroastrianism forbids slavery for example. This is why the Magi missionary unit is as good as a Great person in ending slavery and why there are all the - buildings if you have that religion in your city even if it is not your state religion.

Also what if the units want to be captured because being a slave in the other nation is much better than being a citizen of their current nation?

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks for the explaination Yudishtira! I will change it right away. It would be very cool if we could repeat your analyses for the goverment civics for all of them over time.
And I'm looking forward to hear your oppinion TB

Except it depends on the state religion of the Theocracy. Zoroastrianism forbids slavery for example. This is why the Magi missionary unit is as good as a Great person in ending slavery and why there are all the - buildings if you have that religion in your city even if it is not your state religion.

excactly! But this could be solved via a building perhaps... We can't apply these modifiers to techs, right?

Also what if the units want to be captured because being a slave in the other nation is much better than being a citizen of their current nation?

I also thought about that... That's why I was unsure if I should give Despotism and such a negative modifier for resistance. But then it would need a negative modifier for the capture chance since the other nation wouldn't want to go there. So let's this purely base on units fears/morale and not on how much they WANT to go to the other nation. If so, they could have just emmigrated and wouldn't fight for his country. You always feel some connection to your home country.
Techs like Tribalism, Nationalism ect should increase the modifier quite a lot actually....

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sorry what I meant is that many of your values are meaningless. It is not the civic itself that increases/decreases the chance but the relation between the civics of the attacking and defending units.

Remember capture only occurs when attacking. If you are defending you can't capture.

 

[Faustmouse]

Hmm... for me this sounds excactly the same as before
And again: I think the civic CAN influence these values. When you get defeated by a Totalitary system, you may fight harder to avoid beeing captured, but in the same time, if your enemy WANTS you to get captured, they will also more likely try to do so. If they are in a totalitary system and you run a democracy, this doesn't mean they are more likely to capitulate. Look at Irak, when the peacefull forces of the gratest democracy ever visited it. Where their soldiers more likely to capitulate? And this is also a great example, that just you run a democracy, captured people have a better life their then in their home country. Keep in mind that captetives are slaves, so their are NOT free people. They have to work under very harsh condition, were threated like things or get even tortured/sacrificed/abused, no matter how gentle the regime is to their own people.

Would it be easy to change it so that you can also capture when getting attacked? It is quite realistic then when you defend you are more supprised then when you are the attacker and therefore more often fight for your life no matter what. But when a bunch of clubman ran into my battle robot division, I think they could easily capture them all...

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll have to share more thoughts tomorrow - V-day is pressing me for time here but I agree that it would be cool to capture defensively as well. Seems just as rational that way. However... we MAY have to consider the game balance factor in such a decision. I'd assumed we could but now that DH mentions it I've never seen it happen so yeah... I suppose it IS setup to not capture when defending. Too bad.

 

[Yudishtira]

Except it depends on the state religion of the Theocracy. Zoroastrianism forbids slavery for example. This is why the Magi missionary unit is as good as a Great person in ending slavery and why there are all the - buildings if you have that religion in your city even if it is not your state religion.

Also what if the units want to be captured because being a slave in the other nation is much better than being a citizen of their current nation?

We have factored out which religion it is. The religion and worldviews will have to (if possible) give their own modifiers.

I agree that the prospective captive's civic ought to have some impact as well, but is there any XML way to do that? I don't think it's worth the extra work and complexity (maybe it could be Stage II)

Sorry what I meant is that many of your values are meaningless.

I'm sure you would have wished to retract that after you had your coffee...

 

[Faustmouse]

Well, the prospective captive's civic has some impact, in so far that it can give it's unit more/less resitance/captureChance. I tried to keep that in mind (a bit) when I designed the civics. And I also think anything beyond this should be ignored for now.

 

[Yudishtira]

Well, the prospective captive's civic has some impact, in so far that it can give it's unit more/less resitance/captureChance. I tried to keep that in mind (a bit) when I designed the civics. And I also think anything beyond this should be ignored for now.

Aaaaagghhh, is that right? I've been wishfully thinking that both columns worked off the captor's civ. Sorry but that means I'll have to redo all my capture modifiers (I will understand if you ignore them...)

ETA: Actually all I want to change is Democracy to have a positive resistance (could be +5 or up to +20). Theocracy at +15 still feels rightish - I would understand it going back up to say +20.

 

[Yudishtira]

Civic | Capture Chance | Capture Resistance | Notes Rule
Obedience |-20| 20
City States| 10| -10
Magistrates| 0| 10
Meriocracy| 10| -20
Bureaucracy| 0| -10
Vassalage| 30| 10
Confederacy| 0| -20
Federal| 0| -10
Martial Law| -20| 50
Grid| 0| 50|Added as Hydro explained what it is
Mind Control| 20| 100

Resistance under Obedience needs to be -ve imo. If you're already under someone's thumb, you don't care too much whose thumb it is.

I now see that, in capture chance, you have been factoring in the prospective captive's attitude to the captor's civic. Which I have failed to do, but hopefully it wouldn't change very much. So on that - I will do the same from now on.

Why the big resistance penalty for Meritocracy? I suggest +10. I also suggest +10 resistance for Federal.

I don't understand high resistance to capture for Martial Law and Grid. Am I missing something? Wouldn't you be dying to get out of there? In Martial Law I supposed you could be indoctrinated, but overall I would give -20 resistance to both, for Grid maybe even -30.

 

[Faustmouse]

So you want me to redo all the changes I made for goverment and just change democracy, or do you want to keep them as they are now and then only change democracy? Can you post a table for that?

You have to factor both: The punishment you will earn when YOU prefer capitulation over dead AND (a little) the resistance that someone is willing to be under your regime. In a Democracy, there are not really penalties for refusing to die and surrender. Thus it would give - Resistance. Don't overvalue the impact of your civic to the other unit! These units don't WANT to get out of their regime, otherwise they would have already done. They still fight for it. Probably they think their regime is the better one. Who knows? Therefore the high resitance values for Martial Law for example. Your units don't want to capitulate because they know how hard they will be punished for it. They are probably more radical and think they die for a greater good. This builds up high resistance (see suicide bombers, or kamikaze pilots). I just value the impact of your civics on your troops higher then on the others. Your troops (during a long period not very well educated people) often don't even know which regime you have (or understand what it means).

The resistance penalty for Meritocracy is because for me it seemed so "lose" and not very "strict". Therefore, surrendering is not a big issue.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The resistance penalty for Meritocracy is because for me it seemed so "lose" and not very "strict". Therefore, surrendering is not a big issue.

Thing of an enlightened guild structure. Anyone may progress and are encourages to progress up the hierarchy but there are strict measures of skill for accessing each level thus not lose. there again democracy looks like absolute anarchy to many who don't have it, a terrifying thought. After all is everyone is equal how do the essential jobs get done?

 

[Faustmouse]

Is a Meritocracy strict in punishment then? I told you, I know very little about civics

 

[Yudishtira]

So you want me to redo all the changes I made for goverment and just change democracy, or do you want to keep them as they are now and then only change democracy?

No just that one change in addition to all the others thx.

 

[Faustmouse]

I changed Democracy to -10 Resistance. After all, as DH said, not everybody wants to life in a Democracy.
Also I changed Obidience from 20 to -10 Resistance. Therefore I increased the resistance of Strongman.

 

[Yudishtira]

Therefore the high resitance values for Martial Law for example. Your units don't want to capitulate because they know how hard they will be punished for it. They are probably more radical and think they die for a greater good. This builds up high resistance (see suicide bombers, or kamikaze pilots).

The unit has already been defeated when it chooses between death and captivity. It is no longer subject to its parent civ, so it is not going to be punished by that civ. Martial Law is occasionally popular domestically - such as Julius Caesar making himself Dictator - but far more often it is much hated and resisted. Suicide Bombers/kamikazes come from Theocracy or Nationalism, civics like that. Such extreme patriots/zealots under martial law are more likely to resist the regime than support it.

 

[Faustmouse]

Eventhough a unit is defeated, it is still a subject of his parent nation. Why wouldn't it? At this point, is it really that important to you if your opponent has a Republic or Monarchist system? Would you really think "Uhm... nah... they are a Monarchy, I don't like that. If they were a Republic, I'd join them, but this way.... no, kill me."?
I think your own civics, these under which you were born under, your morale, your moral concept, your nationalistic/tribal/whatever pride, these are the things that play a much MUCH bigger role in this decision then your opponents civics.