Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

I do NOT believe this is working at all???

I am in Industrial Era, and i have had a ton fights so far, and only seen 1 slave:eek:?? thats it:(?? Or was that even in the last game i played??

I need them to help my economy and stuff?????
 
There was a XML-Error in Modules/DancingHoskuld/Captives/Captives_CIV4UnitInfos.xml.
This error made it impossible to execute "Join city as a food producing slave" with a "Captive - Military".

Code: 
<Action>
					<MissionType>MISSION_JOIN_CITY_AS_SLAVE_FOOD</MissionType>
					<ActionOutcomes>
						<Outcome>
							<OutcomeType>OUTCOME_JOIN_AS_SLAVE_FOOD</OutcomeType>
							<iChance>100</iChance>
							<PlotCondition>
								<Greater>
									<Python>getNumNonSpecialistSlaves</Python>
									<Constant>0</Constant>
								</Greater>
								[COLOR="Red"][B]<PythonCallback>doAddSettledSlaveFood</PythonCallback>[/B][/COLOR]
							</PlotCondition>
						</Outcome>
					</ActionOutcomes>
				</Action>

I already fixed it in the svn.
 
I am not sure if we should make a new thread for this topic or if it will fit here nicely.
Some time ago, TB made a few new tags that allow us to modify the capturing rate for captetives. These tags are:

For Units:

iCaptureResistanceModifier will be the base chance that a unit will capture another unit. For example
Code: 
<iCaptureResistanceModifier>[COLOR="Red"]30[/COLOR]</iCaptureResistanceModifier>
will give the unit a base capturing rate of 30%.

iCaptureProbabilityModifier will be the base resistance against getting captured by another unit.
Code: 
<iCaptureProbabilityModifier>[COLOR="red"]10[/COLOR]</iCaptureProbabilityModifier>
will give the unit a 10% resistance against getting captured. If the above unit (30% chance) fight against this unit (10% resistance), there would be a 30-10=20% chance that the unit is captured.


For Promotions:

iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange will change the units base capturing chance by n%.
Code: 
<iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>[COLOR="red"]20[/COLOR]</iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>
This will give a unit a bonus chance of 20%. If we promote the unit above (30% chance) with this promotion it will have 30+20=50%.

iCaptureResistanceModifierChange works basically the same. Just add this value to already existing resistance.


For Buildings:

iNationalCaptureProbabilityModifier
iNationalCaptureResistanceModifier
These two will only influence the units in your city. They work the same as the Promotions above and change the base rate for capturing and resistance.

iLocalCaptureProbabilityModifier
iLocalCaptureResistanceModifier
These two work as the two above but will influence the capturing chance and resistance of ALL of your units.

For Civics

iNationalCaptureProbabilityModifier
iNationalCaptureResistanceModifier
Like for buildings, here are two tags that can be used for civics.


All of these tags are pretty simple to use as they are only one line of code like "iCost".
Now here is the hard part: We need to apply these tags to appropiate units, buildings and promotions!

For Units:
I think a googledoc would work best. Unfortunatly, I don't know how to set them up...
But then we first need a list of all units (I think TB has one for his CC rework?). And then we need to figure out which units should get which values... I was thinking in general, that Civil Units like Healers would have naturally a very low resistence and are more willing to get captured, while elite units (basically all UU) and some Strikeforce units can't be captured at all (thus a resitance modifier of 200+%.)
And I think some UU were used especially for capturing slaves (I'm thinking of the aztecs here) for example) so that could be their special ability that makes them different from their standard unit counterpart.
One BIG discussion point here is: Should ALL units have a base Capture and Resistance Modifier?

For Promotions:
This is probably not that hard since there are not sooo many appropiate Promotions. Still, a googledoc would be a good idea. Some could get a Capturing modifier like the Raider Promotion.
And of course we want new promotion (-lines)! Out of the top of my head:

Man Hunter: For Hunters; a line that increase their capture chance while decrease their fighting abilities against animals.
Slaver: For Melee/Mounted Units.
Stun Gun: For later Gunpower Units.
Paralysing Poison: Archers and Criminals.
Nets: For Riding Units.

Buildings:
I can imagine that some defense buildings like Walls and Gatehouses will give excellent resistance against capturing. Some buildings can probably help to enslave attackers, but I'm not sure which. Best would be a googledoc as well.

Civics:
Do we still have a civic-guy? These would be a great tool especially if we decide to be lazy and give all´standard units a base resistance and capture chance of 0%. With civics this could be adjusted so that still units start with 20% chance without the need to edit them all.

The next step for implenting this would be to make a google doc with 4 tabs, one for each category. And then list all the units/buildings/civics/promotions...
If there is somebody out there who always wanted to help this mod but has no programming skills, this is your chance! It doesn't have to be a full list, iE just Buildings from A-C would help a lot!

@TB:
If I made any mistake with the description of the tags, please correct me:mischief: And if you have a list with all units, this would be very beneficial! I also think I gave you a list with all promotions before (for the First-Strike reworking), do you still have it?
 
We only have these set on one civic I think.

Actually walls should increase the chance of capture because more are likely to survive. Capture only happens as alternative to death.

Also we need to look at StolenRays' prisoner of war mod as it probably fills the gap after the slavery eras.
 
Good point about the wall. But actually, when your troops are defeted or almost defeated they can run inside the city and hide there. So this would mean less captitives.

Well, MUST slavery come to an end? I think we can add more and more penalties for it as the game progresses, but if a civ is big enough and has the resources to run slavery nevertheless, I see nothing wrong if it do so. +10:mad: with Minority Rights? Meh, let the slaves build a new Stadion :mischief:

But Prisoners of War would be cool to have parallel to it. Those who don't run slavery can still take Prisoners of War. But probably we should focus on these new tags for now.
 
Faustmouse said:
Good point about the wall. But actually, when your troops are defeted or almost defeated they can run inside the city and hide there. So this would mean less captitives.

Well, MUST slavery come to an end? I think we can add more and more penalties for it as the game progresses, but if a civ is big enough and has the resources to run slavery nevertheless, I see nothing wrong if it do so. +10:mad: with Minority Rights? Meh, let the slaves build a new Stadion :mischief:

But Prisoners of War would be cool to have parallel to it. Those who don't run slavery can still take Prisoners of War. But probably we should focus on these new tags for now.
Click to expand...

Not if the city is lost!

There are many stages to the "Articles of War". Relations with other nations would improve if you are not enslaving their people but holding their combatants for ransom or holding them in a prisoner of war camp for release when the war is over. Like wise if you don't commit war on civilians.

As Nimek pointed out if you say no war on civilians then the only way to implement it would be to have all hostile civilian units totally invisible to you otherwise they could be used to starve and cripple your cities by placing one on every worked plot. :D
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Not if the city is lost!

There are many stages to the "Articles of War". Relations with other nations would improve if you are not enslaving their people but holding their combatants for ransom or holding them in a prisoner of war camp for release when the war is over. Like wise if you don't commit war on civilians.

As Nimek pointed out if you say no war on civilians then the only way to implement it would be to have all hostile civilian units totally invisible to you otherwise they could be used to starve and cripple your cities by placing one on every worked plot. :D
Click to expand...

But still, if your nation can handle all the hate then why shouldn't it use these prisoners as workers? Or do it secretly?
 
Capture resistance is something I saw being thoroughly worked into a Morale system. In that consideration, not all of it must be retained just for that by any means. I see capture resistance as a refusal to yield to the new authority no matter what the cost. Thus, some buildings may well enhance that for the units in the city. Any building that would increase discipline or loyalty may be subject to some small amount of capture resistance. Strong cultural buildings may even offer some. The circumstances of a wall brings up a point that it would be possible to imagine it modifying from both sides. But what about a crucifixion cross? Would that enhance capture resistance? I'd think a Prison or Jail structure would enhance local CAPTURE values as you have somewhere to put captured attackers that dared to assault the city. The site of the battle is what those local modifiers check so units that attack FROM the city don't get the benefit because the battle is adjacent rather than on the city plot. Some trap buildings (like pits?) may enhance capture potential yet some, more lethal types would potentially reduce it.

The national modifiers should probably be limited to wonders and could easily deepen the value of some current wonders we have.

For units... for base definitions I'd use a soft touch. I like making it standard for cultural units to generally be more resistant as they have that definitive tie to their origins. Some would be more suited to capturing than others (law enforcement?) and we could even develop a few new unit lines of non-lethal attackers that really specialize in this. But I'd unmodify the majority of them and when applying those modifiers keep in mind that the mere 10% we're seeing on some civics now is sufficient to produce quite a few captives. So even 5% is significant.

On promotions I'd suggest reducing combat modifier by a little in trade for capture ability (maybe at a standard of -5% combat modifier for +10% capture ability.) This is because non-lethal approaches are a lot more difficult to employ - therefore such heavily modified capturing units may not be the best to lead off with but once the enemy stack is worn down they can come in and wipe up taking prisoners.

Keep in mind there too... anything that's going to register as an equipment is probably going to be conditionally removed under the pending equipment option and reworked AS actual equipment under that option. Not bad to include those in the core as the core does bleed equipment directly into the skill promos but it's something to bear in mind when developing. The more we can tie the promotions to a skill set or approach to combat rather than the equipment itself the less we'll have to work to 'replace' those promotions under the equipment option when available.

Also, even if units are imagined to be very naturally strong at resisting or capturing sweeping modifiers of 100 or more aren't really ideal unless it's really that absolutely impossible to fail or succeed for those units. I'd try to keep things to 50% and under and that's for the most extreme ability in this zone. At least for now... later we will surely find a lot of numeric tweaks to implement to balance the structure better.

About the google docs, you can directly add a page to any of them and go to town. I'm not terribly territorial there - they're for the team's use. The promotion list could start with a good solid update too... what we have on that so far is here! And the best template for getting the base unit list is certainly the Combat Class planning document here! on the Unit Assignments tab. I've started other documents for units and left them undeveloped and not updated but this one requires updates every time a unit is made so it becomes a good list to draw from. Just get the first collumn and copy it into a new page for planning development.
 
Thanks TB! How can I make another Sheet in the Promotion Doc?

1) The Unit list is complete then? VERY usefull tool, especially since it lists all tags and where to find the unit as well. How did you make it, this would be incredible usefull for buildings as well!

2) You said combat classes can have a plain modifier, too. So (early) Gunpower Units could have -10% resistance for example. What would happen I give the Musketeer -20% resistance? Will it add up to -30%? (I will start with smaller numbers^^)

3) I wasn't aware we had so many promotions :eek: Anyone who is willing to update it? I can do it of course, but I first want to finish the event reviewing. So any help is appreciated :goodjob:
 
Faustmouse said:
Thanks TB! How can I make another Sheet in the Promotion Doc?
Click to expand...
The little plus symbol button in the bottom left corner of the page.

Faustmouse said:
1) The Unit list is complete then? VERY usefull tool, especially since it lists all tags and where to find the unit as well. How did you make it, this would be incredible usefull for buildings as well!
Click to expand...
All but the few units that would be reported in the unit review thread (though I think one was not reported by Yudishtira in there...)

It doesn't list off all tags and some of the file destinations should be put in - I didn't properly update those when doing the most recently reviewed units. But it DOES list off all the unit combat classes by category... this is how I plan them out before implementing them and I TRY to keep them up to date with adjustments made to the xml but I may at times fall behind there. There's also one glaring error on Modern Armor to resolve on the document.

But you can take the first collumn, copy it to a new sheet on the document and fill in the tags you want to work with there, then you can even hide the units you don't want to work with if you're working with a minimal range of them. Yes... very useful. Took a B***H of a long time to put together believe you me! That's been what I've spent most of my time on during this cycle!

The first - yet to be further updated - portion of a Buildings document is linked to in Sargon's sig line. We should probably compile these into being centrally located in the modder's documentation first post.

Faustmouse said:
2) You said combat classes can have a plain modifier, too. So (early) Gunpower Units could have -10% resistance for example. What would happen I give the Musketeer -20% resistance? Will it add up to -30%? (I will start with smaller numbers^^)
Click to expand...
Yes. The base unit would be modified by all it's combat classes cumulatively. Those modifiers add to the unit's values just like promos do but do so when the unit comes into the game. They're shown on base unit details in the pedia as coming from the combat class but aren't compiled there on the unit until the unit is actually trained and put into the game at which point all modifiers are added into the unit's hover info.

Faustmouse said:
3) I wasn't aware we had so many promotions :eek: Anyone who is willing to update it? I can do it of course, but I first want to finish the event reviewing. So any help is appreciated :goodjob:
Click to expand...
There's certainly work to be done there! For anyone wanting to toss in and help the team, possibly wanting to join us as team members, these kinds of updating and data management tasks are a great place to offer help!
 
Sorry... just checked the access settings deeper now that I have a moment (last night was getting ready to go out for our anniversary!) Changed it so that now anyone can edit.
 
Above all else, resistance to capture is about the prospective captive's expectation as to how they will be treated. If captivity is expected to be a "fate worse than death", resistance will be pretty much total. Remember that people can and do kill themselves to avoid capture, so it's not just a matter of "can I subdue them without killing them?" - more "can I subdue them before they abandon hope?" ;)

Worldviews will necessarily play a big part in this. Many people will consider being eaten by their enemies to be worse than death by other means. Similarly human sacrifice, especially as it often involves (what amounts to) torture. Slavery, on the other hand, does not involve dying, and thus is - generally speaking - easier to accept.
 
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