Small Observations General Thread (things not worth separate threads)

[stealth_nsk]

The city-states may use them as well.

Oh, I missed your post. Yes, it's possible, but I don't think they'll create model without civilization (or what they'll go without any European civilization)

 

[AriochIV]

Oh, I missed your post. Yes, it's possible, but I don't think they'll create model without civilization (or what they'll go without any European civilization)

There was a whole slide on models they've created just for city-states. (But of course they can be reused for DLC.)

My guess though is that the North American model will be used for (Mississippians). There are clips with this model with player colors, and not the b/w of city-states.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Rambling observation: Firaxis really needs an East Asian specialist.

It takes a very strong sense of "okay, we're lost" to give a rebel, 'barbarian' leader of an illiterate culture the agenda of 文明 "civilisation" (Van Minh). And then make it about disliking promoted generals.
How could that ever possibly make any sense to the team?

Like so far we've seen 4 East Asian cultures (Han, Ming, Meiji, ethereal Vietnam) and everything except Weiyang Palace design, Confucius' and Himiko's clothes has been ridiculously wrong or silly. And the only really understandable bit was using Ming Great Wall due to the iconicity and gameplay effect of the thing. But that doesn't suddenly make it fine to go and use Ming architecture for a supposedly ancient Han dynasty Villa and all the other stuff.

Agreed, and my issue mainly concerns the word choices. Natives know their native language, and poor vocabulary choices, such as Van Minh and Guanxi (or even Keju), are very noticeable in a native context - and it is not like FXS would not consult someone with a native language background for these words (as they consulted with the Shawnees).

The "Han-dynasty Wang Yangming" issue is absurd, and I cannot believe FXS still didn't fix it on the official guide.

The visual of the Ming Great Wall is indeed understandable, but also very noticeable. As I said before, it is not like we don't know what the Han Great Walls looked like; it is just that this info is not easy to find if you don't speak Chinese.

Overall, the design of East Asian civs significantly benefits from FXS having an East Asian specialist - and to my knowledge, they can find a lot of nice folks interested in the topic in the US academia.

 

[The Fanatical]

This was a bit confusing, as this was presented as a lineup of "Phalanx" variants. But they aren't armed with spears, and the left two units are the Legion and Roman Warrior, and the Egyptian unit is the Medjay. So I guess they were speaking not in precise game terms.

View attachment 705903

The Roman Phalanx has been spotted and seems to carry a Hasta and a Clipeus. Still, they should have looked more like Triarii.

The most disappointing unit variant for me is the Mediterranean variant, which looks like Republican Legionnaires. This model is used for the Greek civilization's units as well. The Phalanx for Greece and perhaps other Mediterranean civilizations should have looked more Hellenistic.

 

[sTAPler27]

This was a bit confusing, as this was presented as a lineup of "Phalanx" variants. But they aren't armed with spears, and the left two units are the Legion and Roman Warrior, and the Egyptian unit is the Medjay. So I guess they were speaking not in precise game terms.

View attachment 705903

Pretty good selection. Not quite sure what will encompass Mediterranean though if Rome and Egypt have unique units. Definitely the Greeks but who else in antiquity? Hope we see some Pacific and South Asian models too. Also it seems like by South American they mean everything but U.S. and Canada

 

[Krikkit1]

Pretty good selection. Not quite sure what will encompass Mediterranean though if Rome and Egypt have unique units. Definitely the Greeks but who else in antiquity? Hope we see some Pacific and South Asian models too.

Greece is the only one currently, however they will probably have more eventually.
They have those categories so that they can add new civs and not have to make a unique model for every single unit in that era.

 

[The Fanatical]

Greece is the only one currently, however they will probably have more eventually.
They have those categories so that they can add new civs and not have to make a unique model for every single unit in that era.

That's really disappointing. I expected more uniqueness, to be honest.

 

[AriochIV]

Pretty good selection. Not quite sure what will encompass Mediterranean though if Rome and Egypt have unique units. Definitely the Greeks but who else in antiquity? Hope we see some Pacific and South Asian models too.

That's why it's confusing. The unit they're showing marked "Mediterranean" is based on a Roman legionary from the Republic era, so I'm not sure where in the game this would appear.

Rome (and probably Greece) starts with a Warrior unit that looks very similar to this but is earlier and more generic. It's the version that is presented in the other slide about Age variation. This is then replaced by the Legion (and presumably the Hoplite for Greece). Note that the in-game version below has some more Roman shields, and presumably the Greek version will have more Greek-like round shields.

Now, maybe the shown figure is a per-figure variation for either the Warrior or the Legion unit. Or maybe we might hope that the Republic legionary represents the Tier 2 Legion and the Imperial version represents the Tier 3 (unlikely). But either way it was kind of a confusing choice to show in that slide. I feel like whoever put these slides together didn't really have a good sense that people were going to be using them to try to learn specifics about the game.

edit: The only place I've seen where they're using the Republican version of the legionary is as some of the attendants for the Legatus in the accompanying clip on Army Commanders.

 

[sTAPler27]

That's why it's confusing. The unit they're showing marked "Mediterranean" is based on a Roman legionary from the Republic era, so I'm not sure where in the game this would appear.

Rome (and probably Greece) starts with a Warrior unit that looks very similar to this but is earlier and more generic. It's the version that is presented in the other slide about Age variation. This is then replaced by the Legion (and presumably the Hoplite for Greece). Note that the in-game version below has some more Roman shields, and presumably the Greek version will have more Greek-like round shields.

View attachment 706078

View attachment 706075

Now, maybe the shown figure is a per-figure variation for either the Warrior or the Legion unit. Or maybe we might hope that the Republic legionary represents the Tier 2 Legion and the Imperial version represents the Tier 3 (unlikely). But either way it was kind of a confusing choice to show in that slide. I feel like whoever put these slides together didn't really have a good sense that people were going to be using them to try to learn specifics about the game.

edit: The only place I've seen where they're using the Republican version of the legionary is as some of the attendants for the Legatus in the accompanying clip on Army Commanders.

In 6 weren't the Hoplites and Legion on different unit progression paths? I don't know if it's true that when your culture advances to the next era that you get free unit upgrades. Maybe in that case if you're playing a Spanish, French or Italian civ carry on those model types. Also unrelated but I wonder if unit ethnicity is tied to current culture. Like if you're playing as the Aksumites and switch to the Normans will your units be African people with European clothing or will they entirely switch to the European models?

 

[AriochIV]

In 6 weren't the Hoplites and Legion on different unit progression paths? I don't know if it's true that when your culture advances to the next era that you get free unit upgrades. Maybe in that case if you're playing a Spanish, French or Italian civ carry on those model types. Also unrelated but I wonder if unit ethnicity is tied to current culture. Like if you're playing as the Aksumites and switch to the Normans will your units be African people with European clothing or will they entirely switch to the European models?

Most of the Civ7 unique units appear to be additions rather than replacements of an existing unit, so we don't know where in the tree the Hoplite falls yet.

As far as I know, after the Age transition all of your units convert to the new civilization (this isn't necessarily an upgrade stat-wise), so I think it's unlikely that there's any holdover of cultural attributes from the previous civ. But I can't say for certain as we haven't seen any direct examples of this. The only unit that we've seen actually undergo the transition was a Roman Legatus to a Norman Army Commander, and we couldn't really see the graphic for the unit figures themselves.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

That's why it's confusing. The unit they're showing marked "Mediterranean" is based on a Roman legionary from the Republic era, so I'm not sure where in the game this would appear.

Rome (and probably Greece) starts with a Warrior unit that looks very similar to this but is earlier and more generic. It's the version that is presented in the other slide about Age variation. This is then replaced by the Legion (and presumably the Hoplite for Greece). Note that the in-game version below has some more Roman shields, and presumably the Greek version will have more Greek-like round shields.

View attachment 706078

View attachment 706075

Now, maybe the shown figure is a per-figure variation for either the Warrior or the Legion unit. Or maybe we might hope that the Republic legionary represents the Tier 2 Legion and the Imperial version represents the Tier 3 (unlikely). But either way it was kind of a confusing choice to show in that slide. I feel like whoever put these slides together didn't really have a good sense that people were going to be using them to try to learn specifics about the game.

edit: The only place I've seen where they're using the Republican version of the legionary is as some of the attendants for the Legatus in the accompanying clip on Army Commanders.

I finally got smart and went back to the etymological references.
In Greek, Phalanx meant "the battle array" - that is, the armed forces drawn up for battle. As it happened, in classical Greece that meant a bunch of Hoplites carrying spears and big round shields - but that is not part of the meaning of the word.

In Latin, they borrowed the word unchanged from Greek: Phalanx.
BUT They changed the meaning, to "a compact body of heavily armed men."

Again, note: in the use of the word in neither language is any particular type of weapon specified.

So, I suggest that 'Phalanx' in Civ VII terms simply means all heavily-armed Melee Troops in Antiquity Age.

This would account for the fact that no 'phalanx' shown in any game shot so far has shown the majority with spears, or any figure with spears except the Greek hoplites or, in the one battle scene, what appear to be early Romans (and the Roman 'Legion' started as a decimal Phalanx of spearmen, 10 ranks deep)

Also, note that the early Republican Roman Legionary's weapons and armor were heavily influenced by other central Italian tribes (Samnites in particular, which even the Romans admit) and Etruscans, who were in turn influenced by the classical Greek hoplites. So, a 'Republican Roman' is not completely and solely Roman - especially since, before the Marian reforms, equipment was not provided by the Roman State, but by the troops themselves and so was bound to be somewhat non-uniform.

The figure shown looks 'early Roman', but could also be Samnite or late Etruscan - in game terms, then, Minor State or 'generic'.

This is still not entirely satisfactory: the most common type of mercenary soldier fighting in almost all armies from 350 BCE on was the Peltast, with javelins or a thrusting spear or a combination of the two plus possibly a sidearm of short sword or long knife and, very late, even a long sword. Later they formed a large percentage of Roman Auxiliary troops to the (Imperial) Legions, and at the end of the Empire the Legions were composed of infantry with the long thrusting spear, large round shield and long sword - and trained to use either spear or sword as needed.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I finally got smart and went back to the etymological references.
In Greek, Phalanx meant "the battle array" - that is, the armed forces drawn up for battle. As it happened, in classical Greece that meant a bunch of Hoplites carrying spears and big round shields - but that is not part of the meaning of the word.

In Latin, they borrowed the word unchanged from Greek: Phalanx.
BUT They changed the meaning, to "a compact body of heavily armed men."

Again, note: in the use of the word in neither language is any particular type of weapon specified.

So, I suggest that 'Phalanx' in Civ VII terms simply means all heavily-armed Melee Troops in Antiquity Age.

This would account for the fact that no 'phalanx' shown in any game shot so far has shown the majority with spears, or any figure with spears except the Greek hoplites or, in the one battle scene, what appear to be early Romans (and the Roman 'Legion' started as a decimal Phalanx of spearmen, 10 ranks deep)

Also, note that the early Republican Roman Legionary's weapons and armor were heavily influenced by other central Italian tribes (Samnites in particular, which even the Romans admit) and Etruscans, who were in turn influenced by the classical Greek hoplites. So, a 'Republican Roman' is not completely and solely Roman - especially since, before the Marian reforms, equipment was not provided by the Roman State, but by the troops themselves and so was bound to be somewhat non-uniform.

The figure shown looks 'early Roman', but could also be Samnite or late Etruscan - in game terms, then, Minor State or 'generic'.

This is still not entirely satisfactory: the most common type of mercenary soldier fighting in almost all armies from 350 BCE on was the Peltast, with javelins or a thrusting spear or a combination of the two plus possibly a sidearm of short sword or long knife and, very late, even a long sword. Later they formed a large percentage of Roman Auxiliary troops to the (Imperial) Legions, and at the end of the Empire the Legions were composed of infantry with the long thrusting spear, large round shield and long sword - and trained to use either spear or sword as needed.

THIS IS CLEARLY A MOD UNIT IDEA IN CIV6!!!!! AND SOME MODS EVEN USE ONES as an intermediate unit between Spearmen and Pikemen in the classical era!

Unit between Spearman and Pikeman

What should be a unit name of Anti-cavalry/Phalanx intermediate unit between Spearman and Pikeman in the Classical Era? - For Civ6 Mod - For Civ7 unit that basically - 'Phalanx type' spearmen wearing more armor than those of bronze age. even have acess to at least studded armor, some even have...

forums.civfanatics.com

And making 'Phalangitai' a separate unit to Spearman a good decision to represent advanced spearmen in the LATE ANTIQUITY?
but calling them 'sarissa infantry' is very off to me as well because only Macedonians (and later Diadochi) use ones. and lasted only as the last Diadochi Kingdom stood. Roman Legion didn't even fond of Sarissa either yet i'm not sure if the Empire did indeed arm them with maile metal armor of any kind and 'long spear' ? and reintroduce Macedonian Phalanx array as well?

And even Metal Maile a standard armor of these 'late antiquity spearmen' a universally adopted wargear (or equally heavy equivalents). What should be a correct unit name? Phalanx or Phalangitai or just a lame 'Heavy Infantry' or 'Heavy Spearman' ?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Pretty good selection. Not quite sure what will encompass Mediterranean though if Rome and Egypt have unique units. Definitely the Greeks but who else in antiquity? Hope we see some Pacific and South Asian models too. Also it seems like by South American they mean everything but U.S. and Canada

Greece is the only one currently, however they will probably have more eventually.
They have those categories so that they can add new civs and not have to make a unique model for every single unit in that era.

These models would also presumably go towards any independent powers located around the Mediterranean, like maybe the Slavs?

 

[AriochIV]

These models would also presumably go towards any independent powers located around the Mediterranean, like maybe the Slavs?

Yes. the Slavs are using them.

And there are a variety of other ethnic variations not shown in the slide for other barbastates.

 

[Evolena]

In Xerxes, The Achaemenid's unique ability:

Creating a Trade Route or Road with a Merchant provides Culture and Gold per Age.

Does that confirm that the Merchant units can build Road?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

In Xerxes, The Achaemenid's unique ability:

Does that confirm that the Merchant units can build Road?

I think it was sort of mentioned before, with regards to how roads are made, but not really explained. The novel information is that they can create roads separate from Trade Routes.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Settlements founded within a certain amount of tiles from another city automatically has roads built between them

 

[AriochIV]

I seem to recall that they mentioned in the Antiquity stream that Merchants can create roads.

 

[chaosprophet]

I remember something like that too. They mentioned, iirc, that while you can't use them for trade between your own cities, you can use them to establish road between two of your cities if they are in range, or something on those lines.

 

[AriochIV]

I was perusing the original gameplay showcase video and noticed that the civ shown here is American; I recognized the city hall style from the America-labeled marketing screenshot. I noticed a few things I hadn't before.

(American City Hall from the screenshot, for reference)

American Palace, presumably

The aircraft hangar is seen in several instances and seems to take up the whole tile. Perhaps suggesting that it is an improvement.

...aaaaaaand here's a WWI-era Mk.V tank.