So socialism

Thought you knew the answer to that one. They didn’t spend enormous resources to vilify everything Soviet, socialist, communist, for you to come here and try to be smart ass by separating socialism and USSR. These, who’s livelihood depends on it, will keep making sure there is no entrance into the conversation about any form of social equality by pointing fingers at the large red monster. And other monsters of similar nature.
I appreciate the time the OP took to make the thread, so I'm opting for the non-nuclear approach :p

I would enjoy a clarification on your second paragraph.
We're discussing, effectively, competing systems here. So a relative advantage is directly portrayed (and has been, throughout the thread) as a categorical advantage that defines the result of the competition.
But we do agree in the abstract that a system good to those on the inside is better than to none at all, right? And in the abstract version of the wall trope, America’s wall beats Berlin’s in righteousness?
I don't think we agree on this, no. It only seems arguable if we ignore the people outside the wall entirely, which I find difficult (because that's the entire point of the wall in the US context). And even then, walling your population off from the rest of the world has allegories a thousand times over in fiction. It doesn't tend to present it as a good thing. We even point to real-world localised examples of this happening as bad things with regularity (cults, extremist communes, etc). It's only "good" for as long as you can sell the impression that people are better off by themselves with no outside aid, influence, relations, etc.

It's difficult to understand that, over time, a country with an isolationist wall is good for the people inside it, when every model at a smaller scale ends up with a Bad Ending. My only guess here is because we haven't given the at-scale model (i.e. reality) enough time yet for the collapse to realised.
 
Lexicus, when 9/11 happened only like 20% of Americans called ourselves liberals and literally none of us were the “they hate us for our freedoms” crowd.
 
People trying to get into a country is, all else being equal, a vote that the destination country is 'better' than their current country. IF a country is taking pains to slow people's arrival, then the fact that people are still willing to move there is even more of a positive indication. Preventing other people from leaving is entirely a different category and it's probably not worthwhile allowing people to compare the two concepts for too long if they seem to be associating the concepts.

'Socialism', at the scale that people dream about in their pamphlets, needs a success story. Just make a list of socialist countries, sort them by GDP per capita, and figure out which one would be one you'd move to. Then, in order to not just be an armchair utopian, look at the relative migration rates there vs. other benchmark countries. If refugees prefer to sneak into Country X than immigrate to Country Y, that tells you something about real preferences.

Edit: My suspicion is that, on average, the step-wise altering of government interventions in order to purchase services that aren't handled well by the capitalist market PLUS a taxation rate the prevents wealth from flowing upwards will be preferable. The billionaires don't matter if their wealth accumulates in certain ways or rates. A capital assets are better owned by people with a longer term interest. Overall, I mean. So, pushing too far into 'socialist' won't work out. Or, at least, I'd prefer that experiment be tested elsewhere.
 
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The US building a border wall is an example of a morally bad thing
I take it you don't lock your front door?
This is baffling to me because I understand immigration's push-pull factors to be mainly determined by the difference in material standard of living, something that I understand to have little relation to how "good" or "evil" a society is
Higher material standards of living tend to positively correlate with human & citizens' rights (admittedly with some exceptions, e.g. oil sheikhdoms). The latter are pretty well related to how "good" or "evil" a society is.
 
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I think it was the movie Get Out where the differential horror of being excluded from a family vs. forcefully being kept in a family was examined.
 
As I see it, socialists have not ever presented a clear picture of their end goal society or how the transition would be made to it. Without that the cause is lost. The only significant examples of "socialist societies" (at scale) tend to be pretty terrible. Until that happens or an example arises, they are stuck with being a fringe fantasy group. Practically speaking that only leaves a path of incremental change intermixed with ongoing capitalism. My suggestion: drop the socialism tag all together, find a new one connected to improving the life of the bottom third of the world. Redirect wealth rather than try to end it.
 
I take it you don't lock your front door?
"oh, you're upset about a thing? well, would you be mad if the situation were different in a way I designed in my head just for this argument?"

I don't take credit for this, but I figured this was better than posting a screenshot from social media. I mean it, which makes it genuine.
 
I agree that slavery (and the genocide of the natives) were worse but no one claimed slavery or Indian genocide were for the good of the blacks or natives.

lmao y’all need to learn your history for real.

African chattel slavery (and Native American slavery in Latin America) was justified throughout on the basis that these populations were lower beings who *needed* to be civilized, christianized, or protected by white masters. White slaveowners frequently saw their role as fundamentally paternalistic, as providing moral guidance and structure to people whom they viewed as children otherwise incapable to self-directed activity.

Native American populations were treated similarly- as a lazy people prone to idleness who needed to be corrected for their own good in order to become productive members of society. Even into the 20th century, the residential schools and forced rehousing of indigenous children was seen as a way of disabusing them of their layabout, drunken regressive culture and instilling instead good Christian values.

It is no accident, of course, that these same stereotypes exist for black people as well. From the trope of eating watermelon (black people laying about in the sun eating watermelon and not working), to welfare queens and drug use, to frivolous ostentatious purchasing practices today, they are all residual affereffects of the original Southern myth: that black people constitute a lesser, childlike species who, absent the good stewardship and guidance of a benevolent, paternal white master, will soon revert to their slothful, impulsive/indulgent ways (and so constitute proof positive that emancipation was a mistake).

Finally it cannot be ignored that both genocide and slavery, and indeed much of the American ideological drive today is founded on a premise of a land’s right to “good stewardship.” Native populations, perceived as idle and unproductive, were consequently seen as abusing the land by failing to effectively martial its productive forces. This has long been the argument that justified Indian removal and massacre, from the conquest of the Aztecs and Inca, to the Indian Removal Act and Tecumseh’s war, to Standing Rock, the open conflict against the Wet’suwet’en people, and the destruction and removal of Indigenous people from the lands around the Amazon today. The myth goes that Native Americans do not make effective use of the lands, and it is for the collective good of humanity that they be removed from their homes, and their lands be given over to the stewardship of those who can make better use of the resources at their disposal.

And this is all of course inherently tied into liberal and capitalist ideology: that productive activity and full utilization of all available resources is a good in-itself, that history progresses linearly upwards and consequently anybody standing in the way of this progress is damaging humanity overall, that the accumulation of wealth irrespective of sustainability or equitable distribution is an inherent good, and ultimately that it is a moral imperative for the weak and “unproductive” so-defined, to give way to the strong and more-profitable who are thereby rendered by-definition more deserving of the space.
 
Practically speaking that only leaves a path of incremental change intermixed with ongoing capitalism. My suggestion: drop the socialism tag all together, find a new one connected to improving the life of the bottom third of the world. Redirect wealth rather than try to end it.
reminded me of this meme:
Spoiler :
supercapitalism.png
 
Lexicus, when 9/11 happened only like 20% of Americans called ourselves liberals and literally none of us were the “they hate us for our freedoms” crowd.

This is not what I remember but it's also not particularly relevant to what I'm saying. Conservatives are liberal too in the wider sense of the term "liberal." It's my bad for not being clear about how I was using "liberal".

People trying to get into a country is, all else being equal, a vote that the destination country is 'better' than their current country. IF a country is taking pains to slow people's arrival, then the fact that people are still willing to move there is even more of a positive indication. Preventing other people from leaving is entirely a different category and it's probably not worthwhile allowing people to compare the two concepts for too long if they seem to be associating the concepts.

See, here it is again. USA # 1! Immigrants prove it!

I take it you don't lock your front door?

This is about as dumb as you saying the Soviet Union is bad and me saying "oh so you wouldn't feed a starving infant?"
 
See, here it is again. USA # 1! Immigrants prove it!
It isn't USA #1. It is "USA better than where I am now and likely less repressive."
 
To be fair the main people supporting the idleness of resources are right wingers.


This is not what I remember but it's also not particularly relevant to what I'm saying. Conservatives are liberal too in the wider sense of the term "liberal." It's my bad for not being clear about how I was using "liberal".
It’s a semantic problem though. Like I am a progressive. I am a liberal. I am to the left of most leftists I see who employ the “I’m a leftist not a liberal” trope. However most of them are going to call me a liberal and then compress me with conservatives because those are also liberals.

And then you land on “liberals think x” and it’s like no, we don’t. And we didn’t. Either you all spiritual not religious leftist not liberal folk have to make a clear case that I and like 80 million Americans are also actually leftists and not liberals, or the compression between progressive liberals and reactionaries has to stop.
 
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on the scale of nations i think the concept of borders wrt restricting peoples movement is pretty shtinky, you gotta get to stuff like backyards and maybe like nature preserves before ill say movement-restricting borders are probably a good thing. on national scales, i dont think whether the restriction is primarily inward or outward facing changes much on its own morally speaking, its moreso how many people you restrict and to what effect on their livelihoods
 
Also conveniently omitting that the US in many of these instances is relatively preferable because some decades prior the democratically elected leader of home country tried to improve things through land reform and the US assassinated him and installed in his place a fascist dictator who enacted genocidal policies and entered into brutally extractive business relations with US firms.
 
To be fair the mean people supporting the idleness of resources are right wingers.



It’s a semantic problem though. Like I am a progressive. I am a liberal. I am to the left of most leftists I see who employ the “I’m a leftist not a liberal” trope. However most of them are going to call me a liberal and then compress me with conservatives because those are also liberals.

And then you land on “liberals think x” and it’s like no, we don’t. And we didn’t. Either you all spiritual not religious leftist not liberal folks have to make a clear case that I and like 80 million Americans are also actually leftists and not liberals, or the compression between progressive liberals and reactionaries has to stop.

Well, liberals in publications like the Atlantic have spent the last seven years telling me that before Donald Trump liberals and conservatives agreed on most things and our politics were based on "bipartisan norms" that worked because liberals and conservatives agreed on most things.

I don't mean to compress unduly with the conservatives but I do think "liberal" can be used in this more expansive sense to include conservatives in some contexts. And as far as I can tell, "immigration means USA #1" is one of those contexts.

Higher material standards of living tend to positively correlate with human & citizens' rights (admittedly with some exceptions, e.g. oil sheikhdoms). The latter are pretty well related to how "good" or "evil" a society is.

So here we come to something that could be an actual argument. I want to encourage this: make an argument!
 
Also conveniently omitting that the US in many of these instances is relatively preferable because some decades prior the democratically elected leader of home country tried to improve things through land reform and the US assassinated him and installed in his place a fascist dictator who enacted genocidal policies and entered into brutally extractive business relations with US firms.
And now we have a clothing store non-ironically named "Banana Republic."
 
This is about as dumb as you saying the Soviet Union is bad and me saying "oh so you wouldn't feed a starving infant?"
All right, would you explain it to me why is it morally bad for a society to make and enforce rules about who or under which process may join said society?
It would rather seem to me that we can't even speak of a "society", unless rules exist to such effect.
 
All right, would you explain it to me why is it morally bad for a society to make and enforce rules about who or under which process may join said society?
It would rather seem to me that we can't even speak of a "society", unless rules exist to such effect.

I'm not going to debate the border wall with you in this thread, no. The fact that you evidently see no problem with it only makes your criticisms of the USSR that much funnier to me.
 
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