So, USA, Danish students study and recieve universal grants for free.
- Thread starter Angst
- Start date
Some people have this habit of comparing the USA to their relatively small country with just a tiny fraction of America's population and then wonder why the US doesn't measure up to income equality, social welfare systems and so on. Well why do you think? Even taking proportion of population into account, when you have a country with hundreds of millions of people there will likely be a greater range in income distribution, demographics, etc. and this isn't even taking our different history into account.
And since when has America been the liberal ideal? Sure some of our flag waving nationalists may think that but I didn't think most Europeans really bought it and even a lot of us don't.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
aah, like that.
in that case
@L_J: Is the Danish system comparable with the Dutch system?
simplified diagram here but it works for this
If so
@Warpus: (assuming Dutch and Danish systems are comparable) Not everybody can enter University since people who can and can't are separated in an earlier stage of education..
Looks similar to the German system.
The one problem I see with it is that I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life until I was actually at University.. So, if I made a choice not to go there.. and got stuck in a school that wouldn't allow me to enter University afterwards.. and then changed my mind, that would kind of suck.
But then again that contradicts my position that University isn't for everyone.
So maybe there really isn't a perfect solution.
I don't know about the Dutch system, but in the German system there is a chance to go to university even if you went to a lowest tier school. There are additional schools which enable you to go to university if you graduate. Those schools aren't easy and you have to study hard, but if you want to go to university you must be able to handle that, anyway.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
Oh shucks. How very rude of me.
Or perhaps you are just very sensitive about this. I might just stop talking to you and chat with other people that don't outright dismiss me on the base of their assumptions of whatever I know or mean. I also prefer people to answer the case points I ask them about and not begin attacking me for no other reason than to get me upset.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
Well, I never said so explicitly, but I'm for a higher-quality government-provided education from cradle to college. And I do not believe public education as it exists in the USA right now is very effective.
Then be a farmer! Nobody's stopping you.
The central point is that you shouldn't be denied schooling because you can't afford it.Ask a university student this question, should ALL eighteen year olds be given the same amount as charity, or should it only apply to those who sit inside ivy covered walls ?
It is strange that those who want to do a skilled trade or start a business do not get the charity dished out to university students .
It is strange that those who want to do a skilled trade or start a business do not get the charity dished out to university students .
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
Yes, America is incomparable. You can't compare anything in America to anything abroad, as all those small tiny countries there are too little to be worth comparing.
Can you explain how being large allows you to be worse?
Iim not trying to upset you, by making this into a Denmark America comparison it just seems a bit like the tyipcal finger wagging of the, oh Americans are so fat and drive everywhere kind of drivel we're used to. I mean the reasons why things are different should be obvious and if it was doable I would support it.
Well for a start, it explains why it wouldn't be feasible to pay for everyone's education. I mean it's kind of like me expecting a small country to put out as many movies as the US and honestly the only Danish movies I've seen are Haxan and Idioterne and I'm not even sure if Haxan is Swedish or Danish.
Murky
Deity
In my field a degree is only a stepping stone. In order to get a job you have to prove that you know how to do the job. With the increases we're seeing in tuition and the free availability of education online, there's going to be a lot of people with know-how but no degree. There will be a shortage of college graduates for doing high-tech jobs so employers will have to start looking at people without degrees, but have equivalent learning experience. M.I.T. is now giving out certificates of completion for its online courses. That might be enough to get you an interview.
My advice would be that if you have the ambition but no money do the online courses. Don't count on winning the lottery or some stupid crap like that. Make a realistic plan and stick to it. Most importantly find something you really love to do, that will make it much easier to do well.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
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Regarding skilled trade: In Germany they have the same claims as university students regarding financial support.
Regarding starting a business: Well university students don't get supported when wanting to do so either.
Really, starting a business is quit a different matter. It in deed is one step beyond learning a skilled trade or attending university. The one is about education, the other about effectively applying that education, or just an idea or whatever.
If you think that the state should get more engaged in the latter, fine, but what exactly is so strange about the state not doing so currently?
Why should size play a role in the ability to pay for everyones education? You have more students, but you also have more people paying taxes. Just a reference to the size does not suffice, you need to explain why education should be inherently more expensive in bigger countries. I see no reason why this should be the case.
Some systems are certainly not scalable. But other systems are, so to claim that a particular policy does not work in a bigger country you have to explain why it belongs in the former category and not the latter.
Claiming that America is different without explaining why comes across as arrogance.
Education itself doesn't need to be more expensive so if we're talking about tuition alone then it wouldn't make sense for America to have higher tuition based on size alone. Based on sheer number of people it does. Even if we focus on the state level, a state government doesn't have the resources to do that. Maybe California but not Mississippi or West Virginia. State governments normally do award scholarships and give a certain amount to even lesser students but not provide for the entire education.
Wait what? Fist you say it's the sheer number of people (Why? There is also the sheer number of taxpayers) and then you say that California (much larger than Denmark) could do it, while Mississippi and West Virgina (which have less population than Denmark) couldn't. So by your own argument it is not the number of people that prevents funding everybody's education.
With a large population there's normally a more varied demographic of different incomes, lifestyles, etc. India by it's sheer population may have more wealthy people than your average European country but it would probably have trouble funding a complete college education for all of its citizens. The situation in the USA is not nearly as extreme but it's not an exact replica of Denmark or Sweden but at a larger population. Is the number of taxpayers in a high income bracket enough to supply a full university education for nearly 300 million people? Even if it were, what about other costs associated with the maintenance of a country the size of the US? What about the burden of America's military cost? What about unemployment checks for all of those out of work?
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
Does not really make sense, as the amount of money a government can spend is directly related to the amount of people who live in that country.
Why does the USA has to spend more per capita than Denmark, in your opinion?
EDIT: X-post. Nova, comparing the USA with India is not going to prove your point, as there are some slight differences between those two. I think it is proven that the average American citizen is more wealthy than the average Danish citizen.
Saying the USA can't afford it because they have to spend on military isn't completely right, as they could reduce military spending and use that money to assist their university-goers.
(Or use it to stop hunger and save millions of lives in Africa instead of 'liberating' middle Eastern empires from their regimes with it, but that's for another thread)
It is true, however, that the USA has to spend relatively more on maintenance as it's population density is lower.
As you sarcastically said, liberating middle eastern empires has put a big strain on the economy. Yes it could reduce military spending but that hasn't happened yet. Even if the average American is wealthier, it's not going to provide for the full cost of a university education for millions and millions of people. A much larger country is infinitely more complex. You act like what I said about India was the only thing I put in that entire post. My point was that a much larger country is going to mean a much larger range of income distribution.
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
I really don't get what the income distribution has to do with this. Yes, the extremes are more extreme - but how does that decrease taxes? Do the rich have to pay less taxes in the USA in percentages?
And apparently, partially funding the cost for university works in Denmark, where people earn on average, say, 20.000 a year. Why wouldn't it do so in the US, where people on average earn, say, 25.000 a year?
Rulle_Kebab
Warlord
The student support system here is fine altho I thin it could do with a bit of adjustment.
I see our universities lacking in quality compared to many other countries. Especially the countries we normally compare ourselves to.
So I think we should lessen the student support and use that money for upgrading the higher learning institutes we have.
We are far behind nearly every european country on those silly american university lists(but those are the ones we care about) and even behind some universities in third world countries... And I find that shamefull for a nation calling itself the best in the world.
Lower the student support, use that money to make the places of learning better. But I guess thats easy for me to say since I am not a student living on a 800-1200 euro budget a month anymore, heheh.
I see our universities lacking in quality compared to many other countries. Especially the countries we normally compare ourselves to.
So I think we should lessen the student support and use that money for upgrading the higher learning institutes we have.
We are far behind nearly every european country on those silly american university lists(but those are the ones we care about) and even behind some universities in third world countries... And I find that shamefull for a nation calling itself the best in the world.
Lower the student support, use that money to make the places of learning better. But I guess thats easy for me to say since I am not a student living on a 800-1200 euro budget a month anymore, heheh.
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