http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...join-crowds-urged-keep-going-national-holiday
From discussion bellow the article:
From discussion bellow the article:
So what up in Hong Kong?
- Thread starter Mechanicalsalvation
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Goodfella
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It can be corrupt and easy to manipulate but not just as corrupt and easy to manipulate.
Timsup2nothin
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Even something that is just as easy to manipulate doesn't provide the level of comfort that the thing you are accustomed to manipulating does.
Bankers like to manipulate banks, while managers like to manipulate corporations. It doesn't mean that one or the other is easier, just that people have a comfort zone.
Bankers like to manipulate banks, while managers like to manipulate corporations. It doesn't mean that one or the other is easier, just that people have a comfort zone.
Goodfella
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I think people should get out of their comfort zones and try new things
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Uhhhh because China is ruled by ONE party and with democracy you need multiple parties? They like being in total control.
Beijing's plan is to eventually have the mainland and Hong Kong ruled by the same type of political system. I believe in the agreement they signed with the UK, they have to pay lip to democracy for 50 years... or 40 now, or whatever is left.
So obviously they don't want HK to go in the exact opposite direction. They don't want a huge showdown on their hands when the "flip" happens. They'd prefer to slowly nudge the city into the other direction, but I don't see how they're ever going to accomplish this without serious crackdowns that might very well be counterproductive.
kramerfan86
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Im not sure why China is causing itself this much trouble, Hong Kong being its own system has done nothing to destabilize their power over the years so I dont quite get why they think this is worth the headache. This sort of behavior will just create destabilization and bigger picture certainly degrades any chance of a peaceful official reunion with Taiwan. If they had just let Hong Kong be an example of "one china two systems" in action and working the door might have been more open.
Snorrius
Librivorator
Let's hope that authorities will stop this "Maikong". We do not really need to trash with universal suffrage a prosperous city.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Technically the agreement they signed with the UK allows them to handpick candidates for elections... I think. So their point of view might very well be that the protesters are trying to change the status quo.
SeekTruthFromFacts
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Why no democracy in colonial times? It varies across time, with a constant theme. Up until about 1950, it's basically racism. British people were good at governing, Chinese people were bad at it (look at all those warlords!). Between about 1950 and 1980, it's because they didn't want to restart the Chinese Civil War. Most Chinese groups in the colony, from dance clubs to trade unions to newspapers, were affiliated with either the Communists or the KMT. Democracy would either have meant a cryptyo-Communist government inviting in the PLA or a crypto-KMT government overthrown by a PLA invasion. HK was a Western base in the Cold War and a trading post, neither scenario was welcome to elites in London or Victoria. Between about 1980 and 1992, it's because the Communists didn't want it. All the other inhabited British territories had democracy by this point, but it was clear HK survived on Beijing's permission and Beijing wanted to change the faces without changing the system that so clearly worked well. Then, in 1992, Chris Patten was appointed Governor - one of only two HK decisions since 1949 where domestic British politics played a role. Patten was a democrat and introduced democracy for the last few years of British rule, to Beijing's utter fury.
A constant theme through these periods (and through European imperialism in general) is that policy tended to be set by British people on the ground, not long-term calculations in London. In Hong Kong's case, this meant (a) civil servants who preferred to run things smoothly themselves rather than risk having elected politicians to upset things (and increasingly co-opted Chinese into their ranks) and (b) businesspeople who wanted a global trading post with minimal politics, and got it.
Passports was the other issue where British politics played a role. It should be noted that the normal pattern in decolonisation is that the natives, i.e. 'black' or 'yellow' people (Irish etc. are black for this purpose!) were transferred to nationality of the new state regardless of their opinions, while 'whites' had no opportunity to acquire it. People who didn't fit into that neat paradigm had their lives ruined. So British passports for everyone would have been extraordinary and would have made Beijing even angrier. However, there was strong pressure in London to give people an alternative to Communist dictatorship, especially after June 4th. As a result, selected members of the elite were given full British passports (in the hope that they would stay in HK knowing they could leave at any time, which proved to be correct) while anyone with enough cash could apply for a British National (Overseas) passport that did not give an automatic right to live in the UK. 3 million people, just over half of those eligible, took up the offer.
The new Chinese leadership of President Xi is nationalistic, determined to re-assert the authority of the Party, and afraid of going the same way as the CPSU or the regimes overthrown by Colour Revolutions. They will not tolerate an inch of dissent, as the appalling case of Ilham 'Tohti' shows. And, very foolishly, they have raised the stakes by giving a particular plan their blessing rather than giving themselves the option of ditching CY Leung and compromising later. They have backed themselves into a corner and that just makes them more dangerous.
Terxpahseyton
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kramerfan86
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Very true, Im just saying the whole thing seems very short sighted. Hardliners in Taiwan will have a field day with this and likely gain in power. For the small price of letting Hong Kong autopilot they could have maybe solved the Taiwan headache and now they've likely made it far worse.
ReindeerThistle
Zimmerwald Left
While CP had hegemony, Eight parties govern China. Hong Kong is an autononous regional governmen. At its heart, this protest is for what all of the PRC has. But since the HK regional government has granted the one demand... they should all go back to work, imo.
Because in China, people work.
Because in China, people work.
Terxpahseyton
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@kramerfan86
I am not sure it really is short-sighted.
With regards to the point you raise perhaps. But the biggest threat to the Chinese regime is the unknown. They have no idea what future dangers may await them. They just have good reason to assume that there quit possibly may be dangers in store for them. Great dangers. So they go into paranoia mode and assume any dissent to be a potential great threat.
I am not sure it really is short-sighted.
With regards to the point you raise perhaps. But the biggest threat to the Chinese regime is the unknown. They have no idea what future dangers may await them. They just have good reason to assume that there quit possibly may be dangers in store for them. Great dangers. So they go into paranoia mode and assume any dissent to be a potential great threat.
IncessantMace
Chieftain
Well, the PRC is probably even more on edge given the dissent from the Uighur (did I spell that right?) minority that has been clashing with the majority Han Chinese. Hopefully this doesn't escalate into something reminiscent of Tienanmen square, we don't need more senseless slaughter.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
They're doing it because they see HK going in the exact opposite direction of where they want it to eventually go. I don't know what alternative they have, aside from just conceding and allowing HK to live under a different, fully democratic system, forever.
IncessantMace
Chieftain
They could wait it out, When Hong Kong went back to China the current system was supposed to last for 50 years, I have no idea why they chose 50 years mind you it seems rather arbitrary.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Yeah, but if they wait, and things progress as they are.. In 50 years HK will remain democratic and there will be no way to unify the two political systems.
I think they have to push for slight change now, so that they can take baby steps and slowly take democracy away - so that in 40-50 years time (or whenever it is), it's easier to unify.
