So whats is really wrong with standardized tests?

[Goodfella]

Comparing the difficulty in college entrance exams between the US and China is probably pointless. Nearly 2/3 of Americans go to college whereas only the top 15% of Chinese do. This fact alone will naturally change the content of the exam. Plus the exam structures are probably different which makes them even less comparable.

It blew my mind how low the standards for math are here in Canada when I came over here.

In Poland in grades 2 and 3 I was horrible at math.. or so I thought. I almost failed out of grade 3 actually.. My math marks were horrible.

We moved to Germany and a year later I was enrolled in grade 4. I found the math material easy - several levels below what I was being taught in Poland in grades 2 and 3.

Then after I moved to Canada, I was enrolled in grade 7. Math was even simpler - the standards were again a level or two below what I got used to in Germany. I didn't think of myself as someone super intelligent or anything like that - the material was just not very advanced. High school was a breeze too.

So as a result of that I ended up going to a university that specializes in math. I think that's just crazy, considering that I thought I sucked at math. Nope, I didn't suck at math - I just went from a super high level of demand and education - to a super low one.

People always say this kind of stuff but there are so many top universities in countries such as the US and Canada and there are plenty of American and Canadian students who do well at these schools that it must be the case that somewhere in the US and Canada, there are students who are receiving educations that are just as good as what their Polish counterparts are receiving. Maybe they're all in wealthy areas or are funneled onto advanced tracks in average public schools or at elite private schools, but they exist somewhere. I went through Arlington public schools in Virginia and there were plenty of students from places like Russia, India, China, etc and these students were almost all on the honors/AP/IB track, but they seemed comparable to their American honors/AP/IB counterparts. There was a special version of the TIMSS exam that tested advanced calculus and US students in AP BC Calc did better than students from every other country.

Realistically I was beyond A-level is the States in terms of math skills growing up in High School. Finished Calc BC and AP Stats by 11th grade and had no more math courses to take my senior year because there wasn't any high school in our district(and we lived in a rich district) that offered anything more than AP Calc BC and I didn't want to go between community college and HS in a day to get further math.

I would say that if I were back in China, I would be probably be a "B" class student in math. Most of my cousins were better than me in the subject.

Good for you brah.

 

[hangman]

Its been 10 years since I've done any math and every problem can be solved within 30 seconds.

That's the idea. On average, each problem should take no more than a minute, and your remaining time should be used to check over all your answers or go back to problems you get snagged on.

The ACT ones aren't any harder easier.

Not true, ACT has includes algebra II, trigonometry, and pre-calculus problems. The SAT only goes up to geometry.

 

[Archbob]

About 90% of Chinese kids attend secondary education today and the standard for math/science there on average is far beyond American secondary education. There's no way of getting around that our standard are extremely low.

I've never really understood what pre-calc was as I went from trig to calc. It seems like some made-up subject to me honestly. Also its hard to differientiate between geometry and trig a lot of the time. I'll give you that perhaps the ACT questions were a little harder, I tended to get 1 or 2 questions wrong every once in a few tests on practice tests when I was studying for the exams.

Just the fact that states are calling Algebra II an "Advanced math course" for graduating seniors shows how low our standards are.

 

[Flying Pig]

Maybe so, but how's their geography? What about their 100m times? What about their social skills - which schools 'teach' you in your breaktimes.

 

[Kennigit]

It doesnt really matter the subject name, difficulty is relevant

Typically, simple derivatives and integration in multiple choice tests is much less difficult (or perhaps I should say less time consuming) than most algebra II problems that get asked in multiple choice tests

 

[hangman]

Most honors kids I know never take a Prep course, we basically just got 1 or 2 books for 30 bucks and did practice tests. I actually skipped the math part usually and focused on the analogies because that's the only part of the exam I didn't do well on. My vocanbulary doesn't include 10 better words for bread that I never used(thanksfully that part has been removed for today's tests). Generally if your classes actually teach you basic Algebra and Geometry and you actually learned it, you'll do fine on the math part of the exam.

Same here.

I don't agree with this, at least not on the math part. If you can't answer at least 75% of the questions on the SAT I math, it demonstrates you don't have a solid grasp of the basic principles of Algebra and Geometry.

Right, well, some college majors don't require a solid grasp of either. The unfairness of the SAT is only evident with marginal students. High-scoring students have little to worry about unless they're trying to get in to CalTech or something.

There is variation in difficulty on the questions in the SAT. However, according to any non-US, Non-Canadian standard, the rest of the world would classify all our as "Unbelievably Easy".

By your own admission, there is a cultural bias. In fact, in grad school, domestic and foreign students do equally good research (as far as I can tell ), but foreign students usually get a letter grade higher in classes. It's probably some combination of laziness and something else, but in general, creativity can more than make up the deficit, and that's just not something you can easily measure.

And again, the unfairness of the SAT mostly affects marginal students.

Realistically I was beyond A-level is the States in terms of math skills growing up in High School. Finished Calc BC and AP Stats by 11th grade and had no more math courses to take my senior year because there wasn't any high school in our district(and we lived in a rich district) that offered anything more than AP Calc BC and I didn't want to go between community college and HS in a day to get further math.

Similarly here. My high school only offered Calculus AB, and I finished Physics in 11th grade. I took Calculus I over the summer so I could take college-level physics, and I did Calculus II and III while I was at it.

I've never really understood what pre-calc was as I went from trig to calc. It seems like some made-up subject to me honestly.

Hahaha yeah I felt the same, until about halfway through, when we started doing set theory and number theory

 

[Archbob]

I'll agree with your there, the most time-consuming are generally Geometric proofs.

 

[uppi]

Well, legally I can't tell you anything I learned from them, but I'll tell you what I happened to figure out for myself. One example would be a simple algebra problem like:

8x + 4 = 20... what is x?

A) 1
B) 2
C) 3
D) 4
E) 5

Wait...you are telling me that they're testing math with multiple choice questions???

Look no further for what is wrong with those tests.

 

[Archbob]

Wait...you are telling me that they're testing math with multiple choice questions???

Look no further for what is wrong with those tests.

They don't want Kids scoring 5 out of 800. It would destroy their precious little egos.

An interesting point is that if you left the test entirely blank, you'd get 200 out of 800 last time I checked.

 

[uppi]

They don't want Kids scoring 5 out of 800. It would destroy their precious little egos.

An interesting point is that if you left the test entirely blank, you'd get 200 out of 800 last time I checked.

You could always normalize the tests afterwards and give 200 points for 5 right answers. Not that it would make much of a difference: it is not the score that matters, but how it compares to your neighbor. Anyway, that is not an excuse for making it multiple choice.

 

[Flying Pig]

Indeed. If you can do that with or without disheartening people, why would you choose to dishearten them?

 

[Goodfella]

My algebra II was combined with trig and so I never took a trig class. But I did take a precalc which was basically just stuff like probabilities and harder algebra.

It's multiple choice so it can be graded easily.

 

[Zack]

Not true, ACT has includes algebra II, trigonometry, and pre-calculus problems. The SAT only goes up to geometry.

I scored much higher on the ACT than I did on the SAT, including the math section. Although maybe this is because, if what you're saying is true (I honestly can't remember myself), then it was testing material I had learned more recently.

 

[Goodfella]

I didn't take the ACT but it seems like everyone who takes both does relatively better on the ACT.

 

[hangman]

I scored much higher on the ACT than I did on the SAT, including the math section. Although maybe this is because, if what you're saying is true (I honestly can't remember myself), then it was testing material I had learned more recently.

lol yeah I think I did too. But it could be because the SAT tries to trip you up on stupid crap, while the ACT is always straightforward.

 

[Goodfella]

Also, I think the demographics of who takes the test are slightly different. More competitive students take the SAT which has the effect of making your score on the ACT relatively better.

 

[Zack]

I didn't take the ACT but it seems like everyone who takes both does relatively better on the ACT.

That can't be true, because I was in a much higher percentile for the ACT. My PSAT and SAT scores were good but certainly not exceptional, whereas my ACT score was in the 99th percentile.

edit: ninja'd

Also, I think the demographics of who takes the test are slightly different. More competitive students take the SAT which has the effect of making your score on the ACT relatively better.

This might be true, but I recall thinking the test itself was also much easier. Partly because of how it was structured.

 

[Goodfella]

It's just a comment I hear often. Only a small number of students take both so if, on average, SAT takers are more competitive than ACT takers, when they move over to the ACT they're relative percentile would likely be higher. Plus it's also easier due to its format and content.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

Sure, there are concerns about the huge advantages that higher income families get for the SAT/ACT/PSAT, but the concerns about those exams are the same for many kinds of tests the US uses. Popular criques include:

* Some feel that the curriculum tested by many college prep exams (Math up to Algebra II, essentially 10th grade english) is either too narrow, or covers material that many poor high schools don't teach. As difficult as it can be to believe for many OTers, there are lots of high schools in this country that do not offer Algebra II or the equivalent.

* Many (including myself) feel that popular standardized tests do not assess higher levels of understanding on Bloom's Taxonomy.

* There are concerns over racially or culturally biased test questions

I suspect that many concerns with these tests as far as college admissions are concerned are really, fundamentally about the horrifically unequal and substandard public education in our country for people who don't have money. There are very practical concerns with the examinations given out to our elementary and middle schools as well.

My high school allows FRESHMAN to take Algebra II! If they've done Geometry in 8th grade and such.

 

[hangman]

My high school allows FRESHMAN to take Algebra II! If they've done Geometry in 8th grade and such.

We have one high school in Lafayette Parish that allows that. It's part of G/T I think. If you weren't in the school zone though, good luck getting there.