[Soapbox] Being "naturally" gay

Love is love. It's the crosspieces. Most of the rest is/was a guide on how to act it out. Different days, different realities. Sex is not always love to act out, even if we we're made to want sex in situations it isn't. Now, that said, it's way past time we get over ourselves and give(or quit arguing over) gay people marriages so they can better love in stable, productive, healthy, and Godly marriages. If the gay sex scene actually has been the carnal ----show the media and fundamentalists make it out to be, it is society's fault for casting it off and letting/forcing it to be so degenerate.
 
Even though I don't subscribe entirely to either of those rational posts, I can certainly find agreement of points within. This is the beginning of respecting the value of "being" in Others. If Ultimate Reality is BEING incarnate, and we are taught in Scripture to love the being in others as we do in ourselves, then a consequence of that is to do this regardless of the beliefs of the Other. The Scripture doesn't say, "Love those who are like yourself."

Rational people can be advocates of the Other even when their lifestyle is not your own. I doubt that many Americans discount that homosexuals love one another. That kind of idea makes no sense. A dedication to one to another is a beautiful relationship provisionally if both are consenting adults. The Sexual Revolution altered societal norms, and some of this was good, and other aspects were very destructive. A lack of monogamy is extremely disruptive, whether it's the cruising practice of homosexuals who closeted their beliefs and had hookups, just as is the practice of sex without consequence among heterosexuals.

As far as I know, there is little evidence of a biological cause, but the reasons we don't have the evidence is because of stigma concerning discoving a biological cause. Even if some is found, it's not likely to be either/or. The development of sexual identity and sexual desire is going to be extremely complex based upon all of the things I mentioned in my first post.

That has societal implications and theological ones too. My fear is that if there is a biological basis, then we'll have the horrendous return of thought that homosexuality is a condition as the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ) used to define. You see the quandry? The discovery of a biological component is a mixed blessing.

For the young reader, such archaic paradigms of homosexual cause resulted in the horrific practice of homosexuals in mental instiutions and attempting behavior modification to alter core beliefs. The definitive proof of a biological cause would surely fan the flames of that old argument for some who are medically unethical.

The argument that, "I am gay because of my genetic makeup..." then can be considered within medicine to, "I have Cancer because of my genetic makeup..." Neither presumes a Cancer patient or a homosexual is flawed or less human or weak or whatever. But that idea is a double-edge sword.

This is why looking at all of the factors due to the complexity of sexual identity is much more important that trying to determine a root single cause.
 
Likening loving homosexual behavior, sacred within marriage, supported by society, on the front line against abortion as gay married homosexual men are, to biology in the form of "Cancer?" You could surely have drawn a better than that yer'revvrend. One of society's major goals is in stamping out diseases, eh? But perhaps not in stamping out talk or short people, or curly hair? Or was tolerance of extending the sacraments to all of the Lord's children the goal there, and your post was subversive enough I missed it?
 
Likening loving homosexual behavior, sacred within marriage, supported by society, on the front line against abortion as gay married homosexual men are, to biology in the form of "Cancer?" You could surely have drawn a better than that yer'revvrend. One of society's major goals is in stamping out diseases, eh? But perhaps not in stamping out talk or short people, or curly hair? Or was tolerance of extending the sacraments to all of the Lord's children the goal there, and your post was subversive enough I missed it?

Yes. We could say that if there was a 100% biological basis for homosexual desire, then it would be precisely the same as ethnic characteristics as a result of our ancestors.

The problems would be manifold. Sexuality is not homosexual or heterosexual. At the very least it would be a scale of one to ten with lots of genetic expression of such varieties of desire.

No, there was no implication from me that homosexuality is akin to Cancer as a negative. The earlier model in the unethical history of the treatment of homosexuals was that it was a disease that had a biological as well as a mental component. It would be well for all enlightened people to understand and watch documentaries about that barbaric practice. It's not surprising given the earlier idea that a catch-all means of curing various perceived "female ills" was to cut out their uterus as well. We forget that while medicine is ancient, the later codification of it for treatment, pharmacologic agents and herbs, massage by osteopathic means and ancient massage, and allopathic medicine is a bunch of intelligent guesswork.

What I fear will happen is that someone will point to some part of the brain (as some have tried to do with twin studies) and say, "This here collection of neurons form a mass that influences behavior. It's the seat of sexual desire for a homosexual." When surgeons hear that kind of thing, they think of excising it like a tumor.

Don't spin my words please, but I'm glad for the clarification. Cancer is not a personality flaw, or a failure in a human being, but a condition that likely arises by extremely complex mutagens to the body that confers an inability to cope with an out of control growth. I'm saying that homosexuality is not as simple as that extremely complex condition, but might have a biological basis genetically (as Cancer is sure to have).

As complex as we are as human beings with the concept of Self, then the components of Self in mental health are partially adjusted based upon our physical bodies. But our "Self" is a product of our experiences, education, our rigidity, our spiritual background, our ideas about the forbidden, our risk-taking, our response to upbringing, etc. It would be overly simplistic to say that some folks are naturally gay.

What I see happening, especially in young women, is an open experimentation of their sexuality. They will often say, and I perfectly understand what they mean, "I fall in love with people, not their gender or their sexual orientation." How many women have said, "I kissed a woman and I liked it." It's highly likely that this form of sexual identity is not about genetics but admiration and desire and affinity and risk-taking, etc.

This could be similar to sexual expression based upon a prison environment as well because of whatever the formation of Self is outside the prison, sexual desire continues and evolves, and so you have situational homosexuality as well as a seperate phenomena. Lest someone spin my words, that evolution of sexual desires happens as we age. The things that excited us alter through time, cause some to develop paraphilias, some to be particularly excited by one type of role play, to diminish based upon an alteration of physical appearance, etc. It's not a negative, but that sexual identity is not static but dynamic.

To say that homosexuality is entirely 100% biologically derived is very unlikely.
 
Spin? I pointed out an unfortunate, and not that uncommon, comparison in the language used. I offered the comparison at full terrible value, which you now disown, and I offered complete renunciation of it, which you did not pick up. So I'm left with surmising that you reside somewhere inbetween, trapped by the details, unwilling to condemn openly and also unwilling to throw open your arms in recognition of a God granted gift long denied recognition by mere mortal men. The shame of sacraments suspended.
 
Spin? I pointed out an unfortunate, and not that uncommon, comparison in the language used. I offered the comparison at full terrible value, which you now disown, and I offered complete renunciation of it, which you did not pick up. So I'm left with surmising that you reside somewhere inbetween, trapped by the details, unwilling to condemn openly and also unwilling to throw open your arms in recognition of a God granted gift long denied recognition by mere mortal men. The shame of sacraments suspended.

Yeah we disagree on that. My model of Christianity is one of servanthood to Yahweh, and I am not completely free to be the natural man I was prior to my conversion. I don't get to impose upon Yahweh what Christianity is, or limit my belief by saying, "I'll hang on to this part of my Self, because that's more comfortable or appeals to my sense of fairness."

Instead I find a middle path where what someone has happen such that their sexual identity is very different than my own, well I cannot make them be like me. If anything I want them to be more like Jesus, but that's their choice.

We're called to help all children of God, but that doesn't mean to impose Christianity upon them. There are limits to this lest we break New Testament principles. You see, the atheist, or the homosexual doesn't get to impose their beliefs on me either. We live in community through our diverse beliefs.

If I suffer, they suffer. If they suffer, I suffer. There is room for us to meet and find commonality. They cannot get legislation accomplished that protects them, but need the help of diverse people with different belief systems. The reverse is also true.

You should re-read this:
"The argument that, "I am gay because of my genetic makeup..." then can be considered within medicine to, "I have Cancer because of my genetic makeup..." Neither presumes a Cancer patient or a homosexual is flawed or less human or weak or whatever. But that idea is a double-edge sword."

Medicine is a science about treatment of pathology states or mental illness being treated by counseling, pharmacology, and rest. Do you see the double edged sword of finding a biological basis for homosexuality? It means a drug or surgery to correct for the unethical who attempt to "cure it".
 
My model of Christianity is one of servanthood to Yahweh, and I am not completely free to be the natural man I was prior to my conversion. I don't get to impose upon Yahweh what Christianity is, or limit my belief by saying, "I'll hang on to this part of my Self, because that's more comfortable or appeals to my sense of fairness."

I get this. It's what forced me to change my mind on the legitimacy of the sacrament of marriage and couples outside the long standing customs of men. Holla.
 
I get this. It's what forced me to change my mind on the legitimacy of the sacrament of marriage and couples outside the long standing customs of men. Holla.

If we begin from the premise that the Church (at least in America for I cannot speak to worldwide issues of marriage) hasn't "married" anyone for a long time, then based upon various state laws, no priest or pastor is needed. In some places, as soon as you pay the fee and get the license, you're married.

As such, Christianity should get out of the marriage business. No pastor or priest marries anyone, they bless a civil union either within a sacred space or in some other place, but within a spiritual ceremony. In Truth, Christian pastors and priests might take the radical step and marry people without a marriage license, for whatever that license is, it is not a valid theological concept in Christianity. It would be precisely like the State telling some churches who could be "confirmed" within the Roman Catholic or Episcopal traditions.

There is zero theological basis for the blessing of civil unions, though many have tried to find one. That struggle continues as theologians contend with Scripture.

Denominations are wrestling with what the people want within their parishes versus what the theologians can be apologists for versus the legal framework, versus what is Christian tradition.

The worst thing that could happen would be forcing priests and pastors to marry a homosexual, not because they are "bad" or sexually immoral or whatever. But the idea that the State can impose upon spirituality is a very very dangerous precedent. Imagine the State determining what an atheist could do and not do within their beliefs?

We'd see a revolution in America if anyone tried to do that. I'm not joking. It would be armed resistance against the State attempting to do so.

Note: Some Episcopalians and Roman Catholics married homosexuals before the first alteration of state laws. Lest you think that Christianity is entirely in opposition to this, some priests at great risk of being defrocked and being out of compliance with state law, did it any way.
 
I think the legal framework in America allows enough leeway for religious-based bigotry that churches will not have to perform gay marriages. There are still churches getting away with refusing to perform interracial marriages.
 
The worst thing that could happen would be forcing priests and pastors to marry a homosexual

Oh heavens, not force. Open arms, not clenched fists. I am talking love, not declaring war.
 
Any pastor/priest has the right to refuse to marry any couple for any number of reasons, not just interracial ones, but divorce, or lack of one of the people in that "couple" being a Christian, or one of the people being a notorious person, etc.

[Note: I am the product of more than one ethnicity (race doesn't exist technically speaking) and hence thankfully the miscegenation laws were overturned.]

But all they have to do is go down the block and find practically anyone to marry them within Christianity. Heck before the reversal of miscegenation laws, there were Episcopalians who did perform the marriage because it's none of the dang government's business who can get married.

Homosexual couples who are also Christian won't like it, but there is some wiggle room. Theologically speaking only a marriage as a sacrament is between a man and a woman. But the sexual immorality code within Christianity pertains to adultery as well.

Since Remarriage after a divorce is technically adultery, then that is where I would begin if a theologian. If a priest/pastor marries a remarried person as a result of a divorce (and of course the preponderance of even evangelicals will do so [but not sometimes within the church property], then by this means begins a process of allowing some form of blessing of a civil union.

Technically a homosexual civil union is no different than remarried heterosexual Christian in a civil union. It will still be condemned by some.

Truthfully, a major obstacle over same sex marriages is merely that they are not marriages (from the Christian tradition) but civil unions. Call them civil unions and most Christians will vote in favor of those laws.

Think about it like this. In some Christian traditions, one must be immersed and choose to be baptized. In others, due to tradition, the process happens as an infant, but later from age 12 or so, then they chose to be members through confirmation. If the State were to say, we're going to tax baptisms. As such, from now on, regardless of your spiritual beliefs, you must comply with our demands to bless this new civil baptism. All Episcopalians must baptize at age 12 only and forego confirmation. It's up to the state licensure of these civil baptisms.

Well, there would be outrage.

Then say that the State said, "Anyone who has a civil baptism certificate must be baptized whether you agree with their belief system or not." That would lead to armed rebellion!
 
Has anyone ever seriously proposed that legitimate clergy (as opposed to the operators of for-profit Vegas "chapels") will be obliged to preform same-sex marriages? I wasn't aware they could even be forced to perform opposite-sex marriages; for example, the Catholic Church would refuse and is within its rights to refuse marrying me to my girlfriend on account of her Presbyterian affliction.

I've heard it suggested that state churches may be obliged to perform same-sex marriages in some countries as a condition of retaining their privileges, but I've always understood no individual cleric would be obliged to perform them, only the institution itself. And in the United States, that shouldn't be an issue in the first place...
 
Yeah I've never seen anyone say that any religious institution or leader would be forced to marry gay people. And nor should they, as private institutions they should have the right to refuse "service" to anyone.
 
Of course some atheists as well as homosexuals (or both) have said this, as well as some homosexual Christians. Since the churches have nonprofit status, then so goes the argument that the State could force churches to comply or lose nonprofit status. What churches will do is revoke their nonprofit status and there will be Hell to pay for this as then they'll insist that others be in the strictest compliance as well. It will hurt EVERYONE.

It got a test with bakers being forced to bake wedding cakes for homosexual couples (I completely don't get this reticence but I digress). Then there are any number of properties that operate as businesses and who then allow them to be rented out for wedding ceremonies. They balked and had legal difficulty with doing so. (Again, I don't get this, for any spiritual group, say Muslims, might also rent it out).

One wonders at that kind of letter of the law form of Christianity. Since birthdays are entirely a pagan celebration, then every birthday cake they made was against their Christian beliefs.
 
Well I personally don't have a problem with that since I already think religious organizations should lose their non profit status. If they run a soup kitchen or whatever, they should be able to run that as a non profit, but the actual church part should not be.
 
I also think churches should be able to bigotize and discriminate based on sexual orientation. There is precedent. I don't like it but it seems like a decent enough compromise to make. Churches are slow changing institutions.. incredibly slow.. so you can't force them to go through giant changes all at once.. Baby steps.
 
Well I personally don't have a problem with that since I already think religious organizations should lose their non profit status. If they run a soup kitchen or whatever, they should be able to run that as a non profit, but the actual church part should not be.
Nope, you don't get to have the beneficience of something like Catholic Charites who do a tremendous work to help refugees in America (among a long litany of services) and for more than 90% of the money getting to the suffering, for the "religious" (those who might be a Nun) will donate their services so labor costs are nil.

No, if you cut their nonprofit status, you lose it all. You'd be shocked how much these religious nonprofits do to aid the impoverished, provide meeting space for counseling for all manner of medical illnesses, clothing closets, food pantries, and the like.
I also think churches should be able to bigotize and discriminate based on sexual orientation. There is precedent. I don't like it but it seems like a decent enough compromise to make. Churches are slow changing institutions.. incredibly slow.. so you can't force them to go through giant changes all at once.. Baby steps.

Right. I loathe bigotry, but when could the government ever change the hearts of anyone? What you're alluding to is a consequence of humanity, not God.

And the comment about slowly changing? Really? What about assisting African-Americans during the sixties and helping organize marches? What about refugee ministry and being an advocate even though it's unpopular? Sorry, while some people in churches are stodgy, and while the national offices of some denominations are plodding in their movement, there are evangelicals who are pushing for change on this issue as we speak as well as the Presbyterians.

There's been discussion by individuals within Christendom since Malcolm Boyd wrote Running With Me Jesus in 1965. There's been liturgy of blessings of civil unions since the seventies but not allowed to be used.

What you call slow is incredibly fast by comparison to lots of other theological issues.
 
What I mean is that a church slowly changes its stance on moral issues, if ever. Compared to other institutions.

As for forcing people to stop being bigots, I think the laws we have here in Canada that make it illegal to discriminate based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. are good ones. I think you have similar laws in the U.S. But like I said, I think allowing churches to "break the law" in this case would be a decent compromise - I don't even think GBLTQ groups are against it.
 
I also think churches should be able to bigotize and discriminate based on sexual orientation. There is precedent. I don't like it but it seems like a decent enough compromise to make. Churches are slow changing institutions.. incredibly slow.. so you can't force them to go through giant changes all at once.. Baby steps.
Spoken like a true Catholic. :mischief:
 
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