Some comments on the AI

[Fafnir13]

I'm noticing that the AI is being rather unsuccessful in waging successful wars. Not that they bother with war very much. Even with aggressive AI turned on, wars that I don't start are few and far between. Of notable exception were the Sheaim who declared war on a severely weakened Grigori nation. They took one city quite nicely thanks to a good sized pack of pire zombies but then seemed to stall. The Grigori captial had a couple beefy adventurer heroes in it, but not much else. Had I the stack of pire zombies the Sheaim did, I know I could have taken them down. Instead, they wandered aimlessly.
Much like my crazed units. What are they being told to target? Do they use the same AI attack script as everything else? I had this one spell mage of significant power going toward a city only to run off into the wilderness, come back, run off again, and finally kill a random barbarian worker.
In other news, I'm currently wiping out a Khazad nation of three cities that had an unbelievable amount of dwarven slingers and nothing else. Maybe this is why I'm not seeing too many successful wars. Had the dwarves invested in the same number of axemen, they probably could have taken out their continent. Wouldn't have saved them from the classic cultist/stygian horde-off-the-coast technique, but that's par for the course anyways. I am pleased to say that I am seeing some naval units around. Gives me hope for the future.
In other other news, the Bannor are doing quite well. Lot's of axemen with high level clerics running around supported by confessors and stonewardens. My brother was running a pretty good steamroll with iron swordsmen and chargers before hitting that speed-bump. A high level Donal Lugh died from in a suicidal attack accross a river and the empty bier was left ungarded, but otherwise props to them for doing not too shabbily. They were even running a crusade thanks to another war started earlier. Might have behooved them to cast their world spell once their cities started to fall. They had a seriously scary number of cottages around.
Lastly, I'm thinking the AI needs some modifiers to friendliness where close neighbors are concerned. If I'm trying to win, I don't care how much I like the guy next to me. I need that territory to advance beyond a muddling power and move on to world domination. Even if their war doesn't succeed, it might weaken them enough for the next go over to have a successful go. That might be enough for an AI or two to get a steamroll going which would really liven up the world.

 

[Sephi]

the numbers of wars you see depends a lot on difficulty. crazed units have a different AI script from anyone else. I guess the Sheaim regrouped their units after taking the first city. They will only move on if they have X units. This stops them from sending waves of very small stacks that don't have a chance. Could also be that the AI was scared of the adventurers, AI doesn't understand many python effects like the pyre zombie explosion.

Bannor AI use their worldspell for a kick start for their first crusade.

But I agree, the AI logic for starting wars needs a rewrite.

 

[Fafnir13]

This right here is one of the things that pleases me:

Spoiler :

A relatively high level guy leading a stack of units all under an appropriate usage of the world spell. They're even smart enough to avoid the city full of tough guys, going for the weak target.

Spoiler :

They were, of course, subsequently crushed, but A for effort right?
I'm curious about one thing. Does the AI have anything in it that keeps it from sending in good sized stacks to their horrible demise? The encounter was essentially free xp for me. Even the wimpy, fresh-built stone wardens were attacking at 99%.

 

[Sephi]

I can't see the screenshots (says invalid attachement)

Much of the War AI is still the BTS AI. It seems to prefere weak targets but it will attack against all odds.

The Barbsmasher AI however which I wrote is different. They do calculate how powerful the barbarian city is and if they don't have the power to take it, they wait. I often see the AI building up a decent stack of warriors/axeman before attempting to take a barb city defended by archers.

 

[Fafnir13]

First time I've tried attaching images to posts. Maybe I did something wrong. I attached the files like regular, then checked their properties for the url to put with the "insert image" button. Worked fine from where I'm sitting.

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

I have seen the FFH2 Wildmana AI wage successful wars in patch 7.11. In my recent (and sadly defunct since 7.20) Doviello game 5 civs were dead by turn 265: Amurites, Kuriotates, Balseraphs, Lanun, Clan of Embers. Two more civs were circling the drain, the Ljosalfar and Sidar, with seesaw battles between some of the mid-level powers and front-runners.

The Balseraphs, Lanun, and Ljosalfar were the work of the AI. A well-situated Shieam (Os-Warqa) started next to the Ljosalfar (Thessa). The Shieam start warring early and stick at it doggedly; 150+ turns of warfare in this case. The Hippus (Tasanuke) were responsible for wiping out the Balseraphs (Nell); it took them 100+ turns but they completely annexed another civ. The Lanun got hemmed in during the early expansion stages of the game, were restricted to 3 cities, and resorted to rotating vassalage agreements late in the game to protect themselves. The eventually ended up on the wrong side of one and absorbed the wrath of a strong Khazad invasion.

Observations on how the AI fights:

1) Only certain leaders/civs engage in early warfare. The Shieam wear the crown for early aggression at the moment, under any leader it seems, with the Doviello, Hippus, and sometimes Clan of Embers representing.

2) The AI tends to only start wars under 2 circumstances: A mismatch presents or they are compelled to start a holy war (Bannor/Mercurian mashup or just late game Bannor).

3) The Shieam are the exception to rule 3. They'll attack anything that is remotely in their weight class. If they kamikazed their pyre zombies they'd be a terror to behold in almost any game.

4) AI steamrollers move very slowly in Wildmana. Sephi made even weak AI civs defend themselves desperately and it has an effect on the tempo of the game.

5) The AI does not seem to understand how to fight an evenly matched rival. Progress made against a strong rival is typically made when that rival is fighting on multiple fronts.

6) Most late game wars seem to be the result of: long term aggression (ongoing wars started 100+ turns ago), crusades and holy wars (Bannor, Mercurians), or interlocking vassal relationships creating large power blocks.

I have yet to play a game of Wildmana to the very late stages. I'm curious to see how they speed up as more nations get strong techs.

 

[Fafnir13]

Just a random thing I noticed.
The Clan AI apparently knows how to use Rantine's special ability, but only to a point. Rantine and a couple axemen are hanging out in Acheron's city. I'll keep watching to see if he goes anywhere, but I think he is essentially stuck.

 

[arstal]

I can't see the screenshots (says invalid attachement)

Much of the War AI is still the BTS AI. It seems to prefere weak targets but it will attack against all odds.

The Barbsmasher AI however which I wrote is different. They do calculate how powerful the barbarian city is and if they don't have the power to take it, they wait. I often see the AI building up a decent stack of warriors/axeman before attempting to take a barb city defended by archers.

This is still not the case with Acheron though. AI still sends a large part of its army to fight Acheron.

 

[Zharkov]

Lastly, I'm thinking the AI needs some modifiers to friendliness where close neighbors are concerned. If I'm trying to win, I don't care how much I like the guy next to me. I need that territory to advance beyond a muddling power and move on to world domination. Even if their war doesn't succeed, it might weaken them enough for the next go over to have a successful go. That might be enough for an AI or two to get a steamroll going which would really liven up the world.

Yes, but I think that some rpg elements are in order. Still, I think that good civs and evil civs should clash more often.

 

[Fafnir13]

Just noticed a Svart using a hawk. Does the AI actually get any benefit from using hawks? Such as, do they automatically know where enemy units are or do they have to be able to see the units in order to respond to them?

Just curious.

 

[Sephi]

AI can only see visible units. If you automate a worker he won't run away from giant spiders either.

 

[Fafnir13]

Last game, I played the Luchiurp and managed a permanent alliance with my Khazad brothers who, for some reason, were following OO. I was conquering the far corners of the world with my own SoDs, but sent a few golems to assist. They got gooshed (hit by Typhoon) a few times. I think the Khazad were hitting their own units as well. What kind of checks are in place for that spell at the moment as far as friendly fire?

Also, can the AI be taught to perform the OO Special? That being a few cultists and a few Stygians guards moving up the coastline gooshing and destroying every coastal city in their path. I've won many a game using that strategy alone.

 

[Sephi]

no checks for friendly fire so far. Only check to make sure AI doesn't declare war by using Tsunami.

yes, OO Special is definetly on the list

 

[Lone Wolf]

I reserve that other thread for trolling. This thread will be for my constructive feedback.

I am now playing a WM game. First thought: Wow, some of these minor leaders are cool, I'll definitely steal a few.

And now, let's start speaking about issues. Saves attached. I don't know whether I succeeded or not in capturing screenies, but if I was, they'll follow soon.

The AI sometimes loses its cities to barbs. That's not really an issue. The issue is that the AI is bad at reconquering them back, not doing so even when doing so would be easy. See the meager garrisons in two former Hippus cities and how the Good Hippus lady doesn't overrrun them, even though she has way more then enough troops for it. See also the Luchuirp lady (god job of giving some female representation to the dwarves, makes the mod feel much less sexist) doing the same with Inthralia, though that really becomes an obvious flaw in the latter saves.

Cosmetic issue: Spice and Reagents look alike.

The AI sometimes doesn't expand. See Os-Warqa, who has pretty good wilderness around her, yet refused to expand for a long time. Apparently, it was because she was preparing a war against Saralet. But was that worth not building settlers for such a long time?

A bit too many archers, see Hippus again.

The AI can be bad at war. Note, that despite rather small defenders in Froihk, the last Malakim city, Os-Warqa doesn't overrun it with her PZ's, even though she could do so easily and for quite a long time. In fact, in the last save, her PZ stack is moved away from her recent conquered city and does training maneuvres to and fro to the south.

The only good demonstration of AI ability to wage a war here is Jonas' conquest of the Calabim.

While the game is going on for a long time, later religions are nowhere to be found. The Sheaim don't found the Veil (our favourite world-destroying villains are less fun without it, esp. considering their Planar Gate synergy), the Bannor don't found the Order. In the latest save, Empy is founded, though, don't know where.

Os-Warqa doesn't research down the arcane line, either, so I'm at loss as to what she researches, really.

 

[Sephi]

thanks for the savegame.

While the game is going on for a long time, later religions are nowhere to be found. The Sheaim don't found the Veil (our favourite world-destroying villains are less fun without it, esp. considering their Planar Gate synergy), the Bannor don't found the Order. In the latest save, Empy is founded, though, don't know where.

I downloaded the latest save and autoplayed 10 turns. By then Sheaim had founded AV and conquered the last malakim city. Sabathiel is still teching economy but after that he should beeline order and then fanatism.

Luchuirp screwed up indeed. Hippus already seem to plan a war against them.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I've also noticed that Sheaim often refuse to expand. I've had a game where deep in the endgame Tebryn was still stuck with 1 city, despite having room for another 3 more or less.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Luchuirp screwed up indeed. Hippus already seem to plan a war against them.

What are Hippus doing with their former cities that are now barb?

By then Sheaim had founded AV and conquered the last malakim city. Sabathiel is still teching economy but after that he should beeline order and then fanatism.

I'd recommend slightly earlier teching of Order and AV, though if they do tech them, it's a matter of personal preference. Did the Sheaim convert to AV, BTW?

Edit: Yes, she did. And yes, she did destroy the Malakim.

and conquered the last malakim city.

Good to hear, but the fact remains that they still meandered about for long (I believe that in 214 turn save they are already ready for overunning Froihk). It was not vital in that case, when the Malakim were screwed anyway, but it's not hard to imagine it playing a fatal role for the AI.

 

[Sephi]

Good to hear, but the fact remains that they still meandered about for long (I believe that in 214 turn save they are already ready for overunning Froihk). It was not vital in that case, when the Malakim were screwed anyway, but it's not hard to imagine it playing a fatal role for the AI.

in the 214 turn save the Malakim still have 3 cities. What the AI did was waiting for reinforcements.

 

[Valkrionn]

I reserve that other thread for trolling. This thread will be for my constructive feedback.

I am now playing a WM game. First thought: Wow, some of these minor leaders are cool, I'll definitely steal a few.

How many Minor leaders does Sephi have? I know that at least most of them came from RifE and LENA, not sure if Sephi added any... Should download and check, I suppose.

Constructive reason for the post: Sephi, within the next week or two be on the lookout in the Downloads thread... GreyFox has done something amazing for Minor/Emergent leaders (split only exists in RifE, but he's on the RifE team. ), and will be releasing it as a modcomp for BtS around the same time we release the new version. The only work on it that I've done (that I know of, but can't think of anything else for it) would be leader status, as we'll be using that to tie certain mechanics to certain leader types.

 

[Lone Wolf]

My apologises, I was wrong when I said 214, it was somewhere between 214 and 229, I believe. They still waited 10 turns too much, though, even by the most conservative estimate. In 229, they are in the south, but they were in the former Malakim city nearest to Froihk before that, they conquered it, in fact. I'll try to be more exact with my saves in the future.

BTW, is "ranged warfare" enabled by default? I can't shoot at anyone, but that yellow square of highlighted tiles around the archers is still seen. Also, are Elohim Hospitaliers indended to have metal weapons, considering that normal Paladins don't?