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Some lore questions

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by Akbarthegreat, Oct 20, 2013.

  1. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    1. Laroth after Aurics death - What exactly happens?
    2. Where in hell does Basium fight? And why does he bother fighting in hell, when he knows that he cannot actually conquer even a part of hell, and it is only a matter of time before an evil god kill him and his army? He should rather focus on keeping Erebus demon - free.
    3. How does Eurabatres die? It's been a long time since I completed the scenarios.
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    1: The lore does not really say much about this. The story stops when Laroth is still trying to recruit Auric and Ethne into his army. He may or may not eventually become strong enough to depose Arawn and become the new God of Death.

    2: Basium fights demons wherever he can. I imagine that a lot of the fighting happens in the eternal battlefields of Camulos's vault, but he will fight everywhere he can.

    His purpose is not to conquer territory, but to break the machine. The evil gods linked their vaults together to become an assembly line in order to more efficiently process mortal souls into new and more powerful demons. Basium wants to disrupt process as much as possible, to prevent the demonic armies from growing. It is a scorched earth policy of total war, not conquest to gain control of resources.

    When an angel or demon is defeated, this normally just means that its spirit is forced to return to the vault of its master in order to very slowly regain its strength. It may take centuries before a vanquished spirit is strong enough to manifest in any way that can effect mortals at all, but they will eventually return to their former strength or even grow stronger.

    The weapon with which Basium personally chooses to fight changes things. It does not merely injure demons, but has the power to capture them. The evil spirits trapped within will never be able to return to their masters and rejoin the armies of evil unless and until the weapon itself is captured and destroyed.


    Basium may have chosen to fall and break the compact, but he still cannot ignore its terms completely for fear that the gods will intervene to trap him like they did Odio. He was not able to enter Erebus with his armies until a mortal invited him to do so.

    Once Basium was able to turn back Hyborem's invasion, he took up the job of purging the demons from the foothold which they had held in Erebus since the time of the Godswar. The Fane of the Lessers was closely linked to Hell and corrupted enough that it appeared to be hell, but it was technically still part of Erebus. It was the forward base from which the Infernal were preparing a full scale invasion of the plane.

    Once Basium had purged the Infernals from Erebus and begun restoring The Fane to what it used to be, he decided that it was important to go back to sabotaging the Great Machine of Hell again. Before sealing the great portal through which most demons entered the world, he used it to transport himself and his followers into The Throne of Hell. Once in Mulcarn's hell, he could try to redeem the many souls which the demons had claimed unjustly, before their languishing in the hellish marshes was enough to make them merge together into Tar Demons or before they grew so upset with their sate that they chose to descend further and become more wicked demons.

    3: I do not think that it is ever explicitly stated that Eurabatres died.

    When The Compact was signed, Amathaon withdrew him from Erebus and placed him in a state of storage. His consciousness eventually escaped from this state, found the young Cardith Lorda, and led him to found an empire and perform rituals required in order for him to regain physical form.

    In the scenario called The Cult, Auric Ulvin (who had already completed The Draw and used the blood of Cassiel to make himself an immortal, but had not yet ascended) has to fight his way passed the Sheaim and the Kuriotates in order to reach the bones of Drifa and revive is new pet.

    It is possible that Auric managed to slay Eurabatres at this time, but it is also possible that he merely managed to sneak a small force passed The Golden One just long enough to revive the White Dragon. He may have then run away as quickly as possible for fear of the great beast.
     
  3. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Thought of some more:
    1.Couldn't an evil god just kill Basium and his followers if his action had a significant impact on the souls entering hell? After all, he is practically invading the god's vault, so the compact does not apply there.
    2.What do we know about Tali in the Godswar?
    3.Is Erebus a planet or a plane? What lies beyond the known lands?
     
  4. TheIanOakley

    TheIanOakley Bugged

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    I've got a question too: Why did Esus, Mulcarn, Aeron,and Camulos fall? Cos I know that Agares fell because he attacked the One, and Mammon fell because he didn't want to die, and Ceridwen fell because she wants to kill everything, but what about the others?
     
  5. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    I think I can answer this :
    Because they did not want to lose the power of creation. They did not fell that it was fair when The One took the powers from them, and hence they rebelled to use Agares' power sources.
     
  6. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Basium's death would presumably just send his soul back to the Netherworld. Since he is of the sphere of Life, which is about willing self sacrifice as well as miraculously fast and complete healing, I imagine that he could regenerate faster than most others. Since his job before his fall was guarding all of the passageways out of the Netherworld, he could likely escape the Netherworld easily to fight again.

    It would make more sense to try to capture him. The only sure ways we know to capture souls so far are using his own weapon (which traps evil spirits within), or using the Netherblade (which binds souls to the Netherworld).

    --------

    We don't know much about Tali in the Godswar. Both he and his opposite, Kilmorph, were of neutral alignment. The neutral gods were sort of technically on the same side as the good gods, but their concern was maintaining the natural world rather than fighting for the souls of men. They typically did not fight, except to defend their own territory from invasion. It is not clear whether anyone actually managed to invade the strongholds of Sucellus or Danalin. We know that some of Kilmorph's territory was invaded by demons and laid waste, and that she fought back. Tali's disposition is very different than Kilmorph's, so it seems likely that he would not just stay put to defend a certain area. He is adventurous and playful. I can easily imagine him joining in some battles from time to time, or pulling some pranks that makes it harder for others to fight. He is not a fan of planning though, and does not typically except his actions to have significant consequences. He would not have had any real strategy or long military campaigns. His actions may have been moderated somewhat by Danalin, whom he considered his best friend.

    At Cassiel's request, Dadga got all of the neutral gods to band together to insist on enforcing a ceasefire in order to allow the negotiations over The Compact to proceed. Danalin and Sucellus were the most important members of this alliance, since they had stayed out of the war so much that they had yet to suffer any losses. Tali was definitely part of this alliance, but I don't know what he did exactly.

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    Erebus is considered an Infinite Plane rather than a Planet. It has not been revealed what lies beyond.


    ----------

    The battle lines that later determined who would and who would not fall originally emerged in relation to what ought to be done about Gabella.

    Esus, as the Angel of Trust, believed that the gods ought to trust Gabella to make decisions for herself.

    He also thought that The One should have trusted him and his brethren enough to let them keep the power of ex nihilo creation.

    Mulcarn, as an Angel of Nostalgia, thought that Gabella's refusal to mate with Nemed was a good thing. He dislikes change, and so had come to the view that creating humans at all was a bad idea. He opposed creating Anesidora to be the progenitor of a mortal race. Since Gabella was already around, he didn't feel like changing that either.

    He of course also wanted to go back to the time when he had the power of ex nihilo creation.

    Aeron wanted Gabella for himself. The angel of the body was extremely proud of his work in forming her, and lusted after her sexually. He was jealous of Nemed, but not wiling to give up any of his own strength in order to become the father of humanity. He wanted Gabella to bear him children who would not only inherit immortality, but would inherit the full power of a god. He intended these titans to overrun Creation and force all lesser being into submission to their father. Aeron was the first god to become not merely a bit rebellious, but truly evil. It was to prevent Aeron from raping Gabella that The One last entered Creation.

    Aeron of course also wanted to keep the incomparable strength allowed only by the power of ex nihilo creation.


    Camulos has always been an angel of anarchy. This now manifests as strife, where every individual exercises his freedom with disregard the harm they do to others. However, it was originally about the harmony enjoyed when no one wishes to compel the will of others. While Junil insisted that Gabella must be destroyed unless she at one submits to fulfill the duties the gods assigned her, Camulos did not believe that the gods had any such right to assign her any duties. Camulos was committed to defending Gabella's free will, and would consent to destroying her only if she personally requested it.

    Camulos also did not like The One infringing on the gods' wills by removing their power of ex nihilo creation.

    (Gabella was very confused and overwhelmed by her sudden existence, but she did not become suicidal until hundreds if not thousands more years had passed. She had also not yet taken to calling herself Os-Gabella, or Gabella the Unbound.)

    Agares sided with Gabella because he believed that her rebellion was a reflection of his own, and believed that The One would destroy him just as his brethren were planning to destroy her. He hoped that she could be allowed freedom just as he hoped to have his own freedom, but in both cases he despaired because this hope seemed so unlikely. He became the leader of the evil gods because his hope and fear had led him to create infinite plains of pure elements back before the power of ex nihilo creation was removed. Channeling these elements through the power of the Gems of Creation (which Ceridwen had helped him smuggle out of the True Heaven) allowed him (and those with whom he shared the power) the ability to keep creating as if The One had not removed the ability. (All of the gods have taken advantage of the Gems of Creation, even those who condemn him for making them.)

    I would say that Mammon fell not simply because he did not want to die, but because fear of the unknown (which seemed like death) caused his desire to control the future to overwhelm his ability to predict the future objectively.

    No one really understands Ceridwen well enough to know why she fell, or why she does anything. She has always been mysterious, even to the other gods. It does not seem like she initially wanted to destroy creation, but no one knows what she did want.
     
  7. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    What about the angels who voted to destroy Gabella? What were their motivations?
    (Well, Junil's is fairly obvious, but I'm not so sure about, say, thingy or thing. Uhm. Sorry, it's 2 AM, I can't quite remember their names right now. The shiny one and the other one.)
     
  8. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    I don't think Nantosuelta or Sirona would have liked it when Os-Gabella ripped Nemed's youknowwhat.
     
  9. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Ah yes, that was the other one. Nantosuelta. I believe Lugus was "The shiny one", although knowing my sleep-derived self I could just have easily have been referring to Amathon. (Was Amathon Good? I think he was.)
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The One had explicitly commanded The Twenty-One that they were never to make beings as immortal as themselves, but only those which could pass away in due time.

    It was Nemed who first rebelled openly against The One, by requesting that his brethren ignore this law so that he, his mate, and his children could be immortal. The God of Life was willing to sacrifice much, but did not want to stop living.

    Some of those now called good gods probably regretted this disobedience, and thought that eliminating Gabella was an act of penance. Some of them may have simply wanted to make her mortal, as would eventually become her own deepest desire. Some may have anticipated this, and considered euthanasia an act of mercy even before she realized it was what she wanted.

    Since it was to defend Gabella that The One last entered Creation, it seem unlikely that he actually desired her destruction. We don't know exactly what he said when he had a council with the good gods just before departing again, but it is quite possible that he rebuked them for wishing her destroyed. He ordered these seven angels to protect humanity and guide them to enlightenment. (Some, especially, Junil and Bhall, used this as an excuse to wage war in the name of humanity. The One never actually told them to fight though, and innocent bystanders suffered so much that it would seem their military exploits were directly contrary to his intentions.) Although Gabella is not child of Nemed, it is quite possible that she is included among the charges they are meant to serve.

    As an immortal being composed of an unequaled amount of the power of every precept, Gabella is more connected to all of the world than anyone else ever could be. Part of her confusion in her early life came from the difficulty of separating her consciousness of her self from her consciousness of all of Creation. One could even argue that she was made into the Avatar of Erebus, in much the way that the gods are the avatars of their respective precepts. It seems likely to be that if the world is ever to be redeemed and enter into a glorious age of enlightenment, this would require that Os-Gabella herself becomes so enlightened.

    ---

    Amathaon is considered a good god, but he fought in the Godswar far less than any other good god. He invented Dragons and allowed that greatest of all beasts (Eurabatres) to fight in his name, but was otherwise had even less to do with the war than any neutral god. He had no special people or territory to protect. Even now he ignores those who choose to worship him, and shows no malice to those who hate him. He grants his blessing freely and seemingly at random, to the good and evil alike.

    His precept is directly opposed to that of Agares. Hope latches on to some idea, makes intricate plans around it, and pursues a specific goal wholeheartedly through any hardship. (Despair is similar, but involves obsessing over the goal even after attaining it has become inconceivable and acts in pursuance of it seem futile.) Creation avoids being locked in by preconceived notions, improvises, and adapts quickly to take advantage of random new opportunities which those looking for anything in particular would overlook.
     
  11. TheIanOakley

    TheIanOakley Bugged

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    Also, in addition to their primary precepts (i.e. Lugus - light, Mammon - greed, etc.) what secondary areas do each god have jurisdiction over?
     
  12. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    1. I read somewhere in one of your posts that Eurabatres has plans for the betterment of the world. Could you elaborate?
    2. Why did Mulcarn breathe on/into Barnaxus? Was he part of the Luchuirp army which attacked the Illians just before ascension?
     
  13. trexeric

    trexeric (or backwards 'cirexert')

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    What would the good gods turn into when they would (hypothetically) fall? (Like, what would they be the God of and how would their shperes change)
     
  14. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Junil-control
    Amathaon-destruction
    Nantosuelta-suspicion
    Sirona-using spirit for manipulation, kinda like Laroth?
    Lugus-darkness
    Sucellus-evil death (as in necromancy)
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I don't recall really discussing Eurabatres' plans. He does of course plan to regain his physical form, and as a powerful force for Good he probably intends to use his strength to fight Evil. He probably intends to use his vast intellect to help advance the Kuriotates and the intelligent races in general.

    ---------

    Barnaxus was considered the best of the golems made by the Empire of Kradh-Ke-zun, the Open-Sky Dwarves whose only survivors became the Luchuirp. He was part of the army that they send against the Illians in order to stop them from completing the ritual that summoned Mulcarn into Erebus. (This was not Ascension, as Mulcarn was already a God.) They managed to break through the walls of the city where the ritual was being performed, but were slightly too late to prevent its completion. All of the dwarves present that day were killed, even the Illians nearby were frozen solid, and the golems were encased in a layer of ice. Mulcarn was very impressed by the golems, however. These animated sculptures were still fairly static, and fit the ideals of the sphere of ice far better than any organic being. The God of Winter breathed life into Barnaxus in order to enable this enchanted machine to build more machines like himself. The Luchuirp hero was one of Mulcarn's most loyal servants during the age of ice, the creator of the many Ice Golems which Kylorin and the Amurites had to fight while trying to reassemble the Godslayer and make their way to Mulcarn's palace.

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    I see an evil Lugus as the God of Guilt. He already represents the conscience, revealing our own faults and foibles to us in order for us to correct them and avoid similar errors in the future. A fallen Lugus would still shine his light to reveal failures, but would make us focus on them to the point that we become paralyzed and blinded to any of our virtues or any opportunities to make amends. His openness and constructive criticism would change to maliciously vituperating others in public in order to shame them.

    I see a fallen Sucellus (or Nemed) as the God of Stubbornness. Life is largely about continuing to struggle, persevere, and take risks against all odds in pursuance of deeply valued goal. (Its opposite, Death, is about passive resignation.) In its fallen form, it would persevere for no good reason.

    A fallen Sirona would probably resemble Laroth's fictional deity Temeluchus. Rather than having compassion that drives us to alleviate the suffering of others, she would make us wallow in it and make ourselves suffer in vain. I guess she could then be called the Goddess of Sacrifice (if you take the ridiculously idiosyncratic definition of sacrifice used by Objectivists).

    Nantusuelta is called the Angel of Virtue, so I suppose if she fell she could be called the Goddess of Vice. She is about self improvement, and overall a focus on the value of the individual as district from the value of relationships (Ceridwen's original sphere). If she fell, she would likely drive us to neglect all social obligations and become extreme Egotists.

    Amathaon would likely take his opposition to preconceived notions too far, and become an Angel of Aimlessness. Without any goals or even values, the sphere might make one see no purpose in taking advantage of any opportunities or doing anything new.

    Junil would of course be much like the corrupt Bannor. You could call it control, authority, or even still just Order. It would oppose all independent thought that could question the justice of his commands.
     
  16. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Found it while reading some random lore.
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11875298&postcount=4
     
  17. TheIanOakley

    TheIanOakley Bugged

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    I always imagined an evil Junil as the Angel of Bureaucracy - basically he'd be the ultimate Vogon.
     
  18. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Or perhaps Mindlessness.
     
  19. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    1. When The One entered creation for the second time (just before Agares tried to attack Him), did he not know that Agares had created infinite wells of creation? He could have just destroyed them.
    2. Is Esus openly anti - Armageddon?
     
  20. GoWay

    GoWay Chieftain

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    Perform the Elohim also aggressive wars? And how is their relationship to Bannor?
     

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