Some UI questions.

[Somebody613]

1. Not sure whether this is a bug or a feature (and whether I want it to stay or not), but religious buildings are the only ones that redraw the screen when added to the building queue.
This is both weird by itself, and strangely helpful to someone like me, who enjoys adding EVERYTHING to the building list (EXCEPT the few types of buildings I do NOT want to add, and "other religions" is exactly that), lol.
Meaning, if I accidentally add a building (in a newly captured city) that belongs to "another religion", I'd see that immediately due to the screen redraw function.
Which is why I'm not against its existence, just confused BY its existence.

2. Slightly related to (1), but a point of itself.
How about adding a "Build all filtered buildings in the shown order" button?
Because let's admit, it SUCKS to click-click-click forever just to micromanage the OCEAN of buildings.
And like I said above, I'm the "build everything at once" type, so I'd just LOVE such a button.

Thanks.

 

[Toffer90]

Some buildings are mutually exclusive, when those are selected the screen redraws in case there was any buildings remaining in the list that became invalid choices and thus needs to be removed from the list.
Some few buildings that are not mutually exclusive with others, like the religious buildings cause this redraw too because the current UI code that determines if it is needed is not entirely accurate and includes more than necessary rather than less.
I could probably make it more accurate, may have time to look into it before the new year.

I'll look into a build all functionality too, may add a hotkey for it initially before figuring out where a button for it would make sense to have positioned.

 

[Somebody613]

Some buildings are mutually exclusive, when those are selected the screen redraws in case there was any buildings remaining in the list that became invalid choices and thus needs to be removed from the list.
Some few buildings that are not mutually exclusive with others, like the religious buildings cause this redraw too because the current UI code that determines if it is needed is not entirely accurate and includes more than necessary rather than less.
I could probably make it more accurate, may have time to look into it before the new year.

I'll look into a build all functionality too, may add a hotkey for it initially before figuring out where a button for it would make sense to have positioned.

I only said "button" as a more obvious (dummy-friendly) function - I don't care how exactly I can do it.
But if you DO get to add new buttons one day, then also consider adding "Delete building" and "Abandon city" as well.
Basically, the more transparent the functions are, the better for the less experienced players to not get overwhelmed by the difference of this new (for them) mod.
Not exactly a super important point, but like I said - IF you actually get to it, then why not do it nicer, lol.

As of the religious buildings, I myself said that I'm NOT sure whether I want that fixed to begin with - I was more like wondering as to WHY it happens.
But it depends on whether you think more players tend to stick to one religion (there IS a religious victory, after all), or maybe they want to have as many as possible.
In the latter case, they definitely would want it fixed - while in the former (and my own), it's a nice fool-proof against ACCIDENTAL adding of "wrong religion" buildings.
So I can't exactly tell you my opinion on this one.

 

[raxo2222]

Those building icons sometimes tend to reset themselves, especially if you click multiple of them quickly.

 

[tmv]

Would it be possible to include buildings that could only be added to the end of the build list (because prerequisites need to be built first)? There are cases where you cannot give a city a build list because there are crucial dependent buildings, and if you always have to go back to the city to add newly buildable buildings you lose most of the advantages of a build list.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Would it be possible to include buildings that could only be added to the end of the build list (because prerequisites need to be built first)? There are cases where you cannot give a city a build list because there are crucial dependent buildings, and if you always have to go back to the city to add newly buildable buildings you lose most of the advantages of a build list.

Not the way the 'canconstruct' filter currently works to feed into the python UI from the dll. Billw might know a way to make that work, but I would think it might be a little challenging and could present some unique hurdles to overcome.

 

[Somebody613]

Not the way the 'canconstruct' filter currently works to feed into the python UI from the dll. Billw might know a way to make that work, but I would think it might be a little challenging and could present some unique hurdles to overcome.

I think an "add everything I can see on the screen under current filters" button would be much better than making programmed lists that would devour memory and processing for endless unnecessary list-to-fact checking.

 

[tmv]

Take e.g. the Rock Gatherer. In a new city in Late Prehistoric that should probably not even take a full turn to build, but it can unlock the Stone Tools Maker, which you probably want to build next. In the current system you need to revisit the city the very next turn to put the new building in the list.

There are other examples in later eras where you probably have a lot more cities, and this can become inconvenient. You also lose gametime (the two buildings might have been completed in the same turn), and you could end up wasting hammers (at least if you are at a bottleneck regarding the buildings you need in the city). I think if that could be solved - somehow - this could really improve things. Of course I don't mean new resources as requirements, but that should only happen once per resource in your empire anyway.

 

[billw2015]

I think an "add everything I can see on the screen under current filters" button would be much better than making programmed lists that would devour memory and processing for endless unnecessary list-to-fact checking.

What is this assumption based on exactly?

Would it be possible to include buildings that could only be added to the end of the build list (because prerequisites need to be built first)? There are cases where you cannot give a city a build list because there are crucial dependent buildings, and if you always have to go back to the city to add newly buildable buildings you lose most of the advantages of a build list.

I do really want to do this, I don't understand why it doesn't already work this way really.

 

[Somebody613]

The dumb truth is that I haven't yet actually tried out those build lists myself, loool.
But judging by other comments, those are far from being as effective as I would WANT them to be.
As in, I'd love to be able to build a queue of buildings from the list of EXISTING buildings (maybe adjusted to your current culture and resources, but NOT to the city's ALREADY BUILT buildings) - and then AI builder would simply add those buildings that are BUILDABLE at the given time (namely, at the start/end of each turn).
Yet I have no clue how those actually work now, loool.
Gonna look into it later, if necessary, but really doubt it already works this way, no?
I still find it much better to just add a BUILD_ALL button and get over it - it's much less of a pain to simply click ONE button once every few turns (when the queue gets empty), than to click DOZENS of buildings PER turn (and PER city, dammit).
Really, lol.

 

[billw2015]

Gonna look into it later, if necessary, but really doubt it already works this way, no?

It doesn't work this way, but I was really asking about your claims about memory and processing.

I still find it much better to just add a BUILD_ALL button and get over it - it's much less of a pain to simply click ONE button once every few turns (when the queue gets empty), than to click DOZENS of buildings PER turn (and PER city, dammit).
Really, lol.

Yeah but as a feature it is a hack to patch over one or more underlying issues. One issue is that we have so many buildings that this is a problem in the first place, another is that the build queue can't accept buildings that haven't got all prerequisites already built, which breaks the building lists from working effectively.
If the player (in this case you) just wants to auto build everything, we should look at why. What you build in a city is meant to be an important component in strategy, and if we are at the point where it is really just busy work for the player then we should be addressing that.

 

[Thunderbrd]

If the player (in this case you) just wants to auto build everything, we should look at why. What you build in a city is meant to be an important component in strategy, and if we are at the point where it is really just busy work for the player then we should be addressing that.

In part, my answer to this is that there are always going to be differences of opinion on what is and what is not 'busy work' vs 'play'.

We can, however, address both of the things you mentioned.

1) As for number of buildings, I have proposed a morphic building system that will make more buildings automatically become better versions of themselves with tech advancements and possibly even other factors like city size advancements and so on, eliminating the need to build upgrades, while at least a current valid building in the building chain must be built to begin with. Furthermore, a zoning control system that enforces that buildings each take up limited space in particular zones designated by build choices and on the types of land being worked (another way to stimulate larger city spacing as well.) This will limit how many buildings overall can be built and make some of the choices not just what order to build them in, but WHICH they want to build and limiting how many of a particular zoned type can be built in the city at all. Very big project for that though. Generally speaking, I like the amount of buildings we have and don't find it's hard to manage adding them to the queue but I'm a more patient player than some.

2) The ability to see and select a building you can't currently build would have to be able to then automatically queue up the buildings (assuming its only buildings) that are buildable and not yet constructed. It would have to restrict seeing such a building with an unconstructed building prereq unless it can see that every building required is also possible to construct. I mean, cool if you can pull that off. I'm sure it's doable. And it would be awesome if done, quite miraculous I would feel in play. Being able to add that visibility for the AI's determinations on what to build would be great for them too. I think it's a little weak how that goes now.

 

[raxo2222]

Building upgrades is MUCH smaller problem than building/resource REQUIREMENT tree - in most extreme case it starts in Ancient era and ends in Transcendent era, it gets densely tangled after Renaissance era though (it gets denser as time progresses).

 

[Snofru1]

There are some great ideas here !
What also bothers me concerning the build lists is that there are a lot of buildings you would never want to build. If you are handling a big empire with many cities in the later game you will have to maintain a big number of build lists and then it adds up that you have to always click away those buildings you don´t want to build but are 1st on the list. It would be great to either be able to hide these buildings or - maybe better - change those buildings so that they are more interesting or find other ways to get them "off the list".

E.g. there are those Atomic Age Reclamation Plants and there are really many of them. Apart from providing a resource they have only negative effects. If you have that resource already you would never want to build them - especially not in every city. Could they at least be made to National Wonders?
Another example: The Breeding Programs (there are 30 of them!). Their benefits for the cost are laughable (1 1 1-1 air and -1 water pollution) but they are replacing Camps which often give better benefits (e.g. and ).

 

[raxo2222]

There are some great ideas here !
What also bothers me concerning the build lists is that there are a lot of buildings you would never want to build. If you are handling a big empire with many cities in the later game you will have to maintain a big number of build lists and then it adds up that you have to always click away those buildings you don´t want to build but are 1st on the list. It would be great to either be able to hide these buildings or - maybe better - change those buildings so that they are more interesting or find other ways to get them "off the list".

E.g. there are those Atomic Age Reclamation Plants and there are really many of them. Apart from providing a resource they have only negative effects. If you have that resource already you would never want to build them - especially not in every city. Could they at least be made to National Wonders?
Another example: The Breeding Programs (there are 30 of them!). Their benefits for the cost are laughable (1 1 1-1 air and -1 water pollution) but they are replacing Camps which often give better benefits (e.g. and ).

Those reclamation plants reduce air pollution though.

 

[Snofru1]

OK, but they cost 100 each turn and bring 1 and +15 fire risk for just -3 air pollution. Definitely not worth it.

 

[raxo2222]

OK, but they cost 100 each turn and bring 1 and +15 fire risk for just -3 air pollution. Definitely not worth it.

Gold and unhealthiness is absolutely not a problem in Atomic era unless pollution and crime is rampart, and fire property seems to loose teeth as more potential events can be triggered.

 

[Somebody613]

It doesn't work this way, but I was really asking about your claims about memory and processing.


Yeah but as a feature it is a hack to patch over one or more underlying issues. One issue is that we have so many buildings that this is a problem in the first place, another is that the build queue can't accept buildings that haven't got all prerequisites already built, which breaks the building lists from working effectively.
If the player (in this case you) just wants to auto build everything, we should look at why. What you build in a city is meant to be an important component in strategy, and if we are at the point where it is really just busy work for the player then we should be addressing that.

I meant something very "simple" (from the UI point of view, lol).
You filter out what buildings you WANT to build - and they are EXACTLY those that are currently SHOWN in your city view suggestion area.
Then INSTEAD of clicking each and every of them (aka dozens of clicks), let's make THAT PART automatic:
One meta-click that simply clicks on everything that is CURRENTLY SHOWN in the suggestion area (and buildable, of course).
That way the CHOICE (and FILTERING) is still the player's - but the CLICKING is automated to achieve EXACTLY the same result, but in ONE click instead of DOZENS.
I'm quite sure this ISN'T that hard to program, no?
It simply calls out "what is currently shown as filtered AND buildable" - and then just adds it to the queue in the order that is selected in the filtering choice (say, by COST).
It does NOT check for UNBUILDABLE buildings whatsoever - because that's not what is SHOWN in the filters either (assuming everyone chooses HIDE UNBUILDABLE).
Is this really THAT hard to do, I wonder?
Oh, and this is HUMAN-only, obviously, not that the Autobuild AI was any worth ever, lol.

 

[billw2015]

Not sure what in my reply made you think I thought your suggestion was difficult, or that I didn't understand it. I'm not personally going to implement something that is requested just because its easy, if it isn't the correct solution. "Build all" isn't an appropriate player action and shouldn't be encouraged in my book. The current desire for it appears to stem from underlying problems, and I want to address them instead. Definitely we have too many buildings that build too quickly, and too many cities for most players to reasonably manage them manually without being bored or frustrated. The AI governor and build lists are meant to help address these problems, and although they have issues, I think they are the correct approach.

 

[Somebody613]

That's beyond subjective, sorry.
For me, that button is EXACTLY the one and only feature that my game lacks - I don't want anything ELSE to be changed, except for the time I spend on CLICKING.
If you think differently - then it's YOU who thinks that way, not ME (and an unknown number of other players).