Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[Optional]

lurker's comment: That looks much better set up for attack!
What surprises me is that Alex hasn't called you and asked about all your units on his borders. Normally you get this in a situation like this, with 2 choices for answer: "You're right, we're here to attack you (declare)," or "Our units are only passing through."
If you take the second choice and still declare, that's obviously something Alex will not take kindly to. If you take the first option and declare, then you can't ask Catherine or Napoleon what they're willing to pay for you declaring on Alex. So it's better not to get this dialogue box.
I would ask you neighbours now what they're willing to pay and go for it. This should still not be easy campaign with The Great Wall there.

 

[AlanH]

lurker's comment: That looks much better set up for attack!
What surprises me is that Alex hasn't called you and asked about all your units on his borders. Normally you get this in a situation like this, with 2 choices for answer: "You're right, we're here to attack you (declare)," or "Our units are only passing through."
If you take the second choice and still declare, that's obviously something Alex will not take kindly to. If you take the first option and declare, then you can't ask Catherine or Napoleon what they're willing to pay for you declaring on Alex. So it's better not to get this dialogue box.
I would ask you neighbours now what they're willing to pay and go for it. This should still not be easy campaign with The Great Wall there.

From the turn log:

IBT:
Alex doesn't like the troops amassing at his borders. I tell him not to worry about it, we are not ready to declare just yet, or so I think.
Russia protects Cape Town and makes peace with Genoa.

Turn 103 300 BC

Sounds as if we may already have taken option 2.

 

[a space oddity]

Sounds as if we may already have taken option 2.

Yeah, we did. How long does it last though? I take it that doesn't mean we can't attack ever. I have a feeling Alex will be upset anyway if we declare war upon him...

 

[leif erikson]

Who cares what Alex thinks.

It is nearly time to brush him into the dustbin of history...

Yes, due to Great Wall, we will need reinforcements to finish him, it will be expensive.

 

[mad-bax]

OK - I've got it. Small delay due to family engagement I forgot about. Nevertheless I will post within 24 hours.

Nicely played Space. You've given me no excuses unfortunately

MB

 

[a space oddity]

I have every faith in you General Baxter, experience or no.

 

[Optional]

lurker's comment: Ah, it seems I missed that in the turn log (it had already been in the previous one, I see now)! No, I don't think it matters a lot what Alex thinks, as I'm not seeing you get back to good terms with him anyway, and there's no general reputation hit as far as I know.
Your goal should probably be to take his capital, and if you sign peace with him after that he will denounce you anyway. A denounciation will have some effect on how other civs are viewing you, but I'm not aware of any way to avoid this denounciation. And completely destroying a civ could give you an even worse tag.

 

[mad-bax]

200BC:
I'll put the spear that has movement left into MBR and send the Pike north A few of us will get that joke.

We call up Alex and tell him the good news.

We then move various units into something resembling the dotmap. I stick a sword into the front line just in case we get lucky.
Bombard Corinth with Cat. Bombard Novogrod with Trireme just for experimentation purposes. The cat was more effective.

IBT: lots happens.
We learn construction
Pike completes in MBR
Napoleon declares war on Catherine
A barbarian encampment is discovered near Monaco and they don't like it.

175BC:
Bombard Corinth and take it with a sword for no loss. It has a library already.
It is now our puppet and we have 6 unhappy faces. Yuk.

MBR - Lighthouse
Research - Theology to follow Space's plan of getting to education quickly.
I want to take Novogrod. It has silver, marble and iron. We can think about Argos after that but it will not be in this turnset I think.

IBT:
Kate wants a research agreement but we are negative gpt so I refuse.

150BC:
The long march north begins.
TK finishes cat (which is immediately promoted) and starts a library

IBT: A greek scout shows up on the hills SW of Corinth.

125BC:

The long march north continues. The northern pike is very slow (moving I mean, obviously).

Greek scout is killed with Cat. This will delay the cat getting to Novogrod so may be a bit of a I just want to cause Alex as much pain as possible as quickly as possible.

IBT:
A greek companion cavalry attacks our fortified sword. It's a tie, but both are yellow lined. A hoplite also turns up but runs out of movement points and cannot attack.
MBR finishes lighthouse
SS finishes Stone Works

100BC:
We take a time out to review troop logistics. Units are beginning to fall over each other in their eagerness to get to where they are going.

MBR starts colloseum for happiness.
SS starts market

Retreat sword out of range of hoplite, but still in range of cavalry.
Bombard hoplite with archer assuming cat would kill the cavalry
Bombard cav with cat. Didn't kill cavalry. This was just dumb by me.

IBT:

Cavalry runs away. Hoplite attacks archer - another draw.
The pearls and open borders deal with Cathy finishes.

75BC:

We promote our brave archer to barrage 2.
Sell pearls back to Catherine for 71 gold and open borders. We need this for attacking Novogrod. We don't open our borders to her as this would only get us 23g extra.

IBT:
Napoleon completes the pyramids.

50BC:
kill the retreating cavalry with the chariot.
Take a risk with a cat to save a movement turn.

IBT:
Alex wants peace. No deal.
MBR finishes colloseum

25BC:

The risky cat gets bombarded and yellow lined. Hmmm....
Start bombardment of Novogrod.
TK is 4 turns from library. Don't know what to start in MBR...

OK - I'm going to risk the collossus. I don't need a unit and temples look expensive to keep. Could be a bad move. Dunno.

IBT:

Yikes! I lost a catapult! Can I show my face around here again...?
So - to redemption...

1AD: Christ is born again.

We bombard Novogrod to a yellow and attack with single sword to red line. Just failed to capture.

IBT:
A sword is killed by catapult. Good grief. KMN.

Redline Novogrod

IBT:

We learn Theology, which must mean my ten turns are up... aah just one more turn, puh-lease?


50AD:
Novogrod is our puppet. It has no Library - so we may need to annexe it.


So that's it... Didn't cover myself with glory.

TK gets it's library next turn.
There is a red lined cat that needs dealing with. I have it cornered I think.
There may be some mm opportunities. Growth is slow due to negative happiness of course.

Our new lands, as fair as ever I have seen.


And the save

View attachment Space 5 Montezuma_0117 AD-0050.Civ5Save

 

[a space oddity]

We almost doubled our civ, I'd say that's glorious whatever you may think!

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work MB.

Looks like you taught Alex a lesson about picking on us. And I like my little vacation city on the coast, hope they have nice beaches and plenty of sunshine...

A couple of things:
Puppeted cities do not count towards the total for National Wonders, so next turn Ted's Keep completes its Library and we can start on National College. The question for us is whether we should first complete Colossus in MB or move immediately to National College. Should probably complete Colossus as we need the gold, but it delays the additional Science.

Concerned over Cathy's attitude towards us, she now bears watching. Our advisers are telling us that Russia and France do not have significant military strength. How much further do we go with Alex? Wipe him out? Need some more units, 1 or 2 Cats.

Need some happiness. May have to build some Colosseums, but it will cost maintenance.

edit - forgot to ask what you thought of the combat system? You seem to have figured it out pretty well.

 

[mad-bax]

I will comment more in the morning (for me). It's past my bed time.

Nappy and Cathy are hurting each other. They have both lost several units to each other. Consequently I don't feel threatened by either.

The library in TK is four turns away and the Colossus 7 turns and so we will lose 3 turns only on research. We could then enter into a research agreement perhaps.

I think our priority should be to get happy positive again to regain our growth rate as this will help science long term I think.

Not sure about taking out Alex completely. What are the pro's and cons?

As for the combat system - I like it more than Civ III where you stack as many units as you like on the best tile and that's as clever as it gets. With Civ 5 much more thought, planning and care in the execution is required. I made 3 mistakes that I could pick out in my turnset - but this was a really good lesson. Logistics and making sure the units don't trip up over each other is important. Neutral units occupying tiles that you need control of have to be dealt with - and of course how you play the gambit of having to put units in harms way before using them to attack. This is the best difference. I think the AI's choice of target may be researchable - in other words - predictable.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun. I lost a couple of units, but I think one was unavoidable. Overall we are on plan I think.

 

[a space oddity]

Roster:
a space oddity
mad-bax
TedJackson <-- UP (but needs a skip maybe?)
AlanH
leif erikson
ainwood

 

[AlanH]

Good work MB!

I have a pretty heavy schedule for he next week, but I hope to be able to fit a turn set in. If Ted's in need of a skip, that will need to come sooner. I'll download the save and have a look in case I need to get involved.

Do we want to extend the next three turns sets to 11 turns each to get back onto a ten turn multiple? (If so, MB could have had his "one more turn ...")

 

[mad-bax]

We almost doubled our civ, I'd say that's glorious whatever you may think!

Wars are won in the preparation Space. So thank you for setting it up so well.

I want to discuss the war. I don't see the point of continuing against Alex. We would have to take cities with very few lux resources and our happiness problems will be compounded - his outlying cities are near worthless (IMHO). Also, he will be confined to a corner of the map and will not challenge us for the rest of the game. So I would just kill his redlined cat and see what he wants for peace.

Cathy is weak, and not going to help us get to Space. I'm really wondering if we could just march on Moscow in an Alliance with the French. I like Moscow (and Alan needs a place to call his own also). My view is that two more cats would be ample (4 in total). The issue is that TK is not very productive and it would take time to build them. SS is a long way away and MBR is building infra and shouldn't stop. I would build one cat in SS and send it North on the roads we have. Continue to build roads North - we need to connect Leif Springs anyway. Heal our troops and then go for it. The swords can attack by sea, and the ranged units can lay seige from the landward side. If this were single player I wouldn't even wait for the next cat.

Anyway, I'm rambling now.

I won't play another turn, but I agree that we can play 11 turns to get us back on the pattern.

[Edit] I forgot to say that after Moscow, I would take out Cape Town also.

 

[ainwood]

Great stuff all!

Sorry - I've had a pretty heavy week. Am going on leave for a couple of weeks (which means I'll need a skip), and have been rushing around trying to get a whole lot of work stuff done before I go, and now have to rush around this weekend getting a whole lot of home stuff done.

My only thoughts for consideration: Capturing Argos might be nice, for the gold (resource for happiness) that it has, and capturing Athens is great, because capital cities are generally the best cities. Think this is doable with our current forces.

Alternatively, Catherine is the globally weakest civ. Would prefer to keep her as a research partner though, although it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Moscow, and its not winter.

 

[leif erikson]

[Edit] I forgot to say that after Moscow, I would take out Cape Town also.

Interested to hear why you wish to take out a City-State?

Sorry - I've had a pretty heavy week. Am going on leave for a couple of weeks (which means I'll need a skip), and have been rushing around trying to get a whole lot of work stuff done before I go, and now have to rush around this weekend getting a whole lot of home stuff done.

Hope you get it all done and have a great time.

My only thoughts for consideration: Capturing Argos might be nice, for the gold (resource for happiness) that it has, and capturing Athens is great, because capital cities are generally the best cities. Think this is doable with our current forces.

Athens and Sparta both have gold, and they are river cities (food + commerce ) Thinking we could even raze Argos? (enough unhappiness now?)

Alternatively, Catherine is the globally weakest civ. Would prefer to keep her as a research partner though, although it's only a hop, skip and a jump to Moscow, and its not winter.

The thought makes me shiver.

Once Alex is gone, then Nappy, especially since Cathy has been cutting him down to size for us.

 

[a space oddity]

I have a pretty heavy schedule for he next week, but I hope to be able to fit a turn set in. If Ted's in need of a skip, that will need to come sooner. I'll download the save and have a look in case I need to get involved.

Thanks Alan, it seems like Ted is still busy. Can you fit in a turnset sometime this week? Can be later in the week too, there's no rush.

Do we want to extend the next three turns sets to 11 turns each to get back onto a ten turn multiple?

I thought MB would seize the chance to play 13 turns, but 11 a piece will do the job nicely too.

 

[mad-bax]

I can play another 3 turns if you like. It's just that we are in the middle of a war and I wanted to give other people the opportunity to have a go.

Let me know what you decide. I can play in a little over 24 hours. Do we go with ainwoods view or Leifs (former wants to capture Argos, latter wants to raze it)?

No rush by the way. Just trying to help out.

 

[AlanH]

I can play a set later in the week or at the weekend. If MB is available to play another three turns, that would be great. I'm sure there will be other opportunities to put our enemies to the sword.

I'm not sure about razing. What happens to the space you leave if you raze? Do you settle it, or leave it for others to take over? How important is territory?

In Civ3, I would only raze if I was going for conquest. For any other VC, I preferred to capture to gain the territory, as razing would leave a space to be refilled by that or another civ. Raze-and-rebuild would be an alternative to avoid culture flips if I wasn't planning to kill the civ in the short term. But this isn't Civ3, and that sort of conquest doesn't even apply.

 

[a space oddity]

Please take those three extra turns then, MB.

I'm with Alan, I don't know what razing would mean for the game, although happiness seems to be the short term issue. The AI usually is not as good a a human player to build up new city in a razed spot, although again I don't know how well CiV does it.