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Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by a space oddity, May 25, 2013.

  1. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Nice work. :goodjob:

    Well, there really are other, sort of, hidden penalties such as research as it is directly modified by our population size, so slow growth means less research over time. :sad:

    Perhaps we should switch gears and think about taking on Alex while he is at war with Cathy. We *could* backstab him for a change. :)

    Have not looked at the save but we probably need to try and find other civs? Do we need to build another Trireme for exploration?

    Yeah, had to skip. :blush:
     
  2. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    More than a full rotation in one week?? :eek: Am I in the right place?

    Got it. I have to do quite a bit of reading first and will be back with questions later. :help:
     
  3. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

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    Your cat was fine - I was actually meaning the one that I started once yours completed. Actually, in hindsight we have built a barracks in our lowest production city (although I was the one pushing for this....)

    Yep.

    I thought about this, but no-one was willing to pay very much for it. Alex now has iron at Novgorod, so we can't trap him in the resource shortage, although we could do it to Nappy.


    Yes - but the point is that there is no need to avoid going negative at all costs (ie. prevent growth).

    :goodjob:


    Probably need to be able to cross oceans first.
     
  4. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    We could send a couple of pillage parties out to destroy his Iron mines and leave him with less effective Iron units, if he has built enough of them?

    Looking at the save, first thing I noticed is Alex built Great Wall, that will complicate things for us. In his territory it costs us an extra movement point per hex and gives him free walls in the city he built it in. Slows us down. :(

    Agree with your point.

    Now that I am looking at the save, see this is the case, or at least I think it is. Need to move that Trireme north to see for sure.

    If we go for Alex, there are still some cities we can bombard with Cats from outside his border, or 1 tile inside. Corinth and Sparta it seems.
     
  5. TedJackson

    TedJackson Cunning old Celt

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    Sorry I've been out of touch guys,

    but I got called away on Friday with a family emergency :(

    Looks like you've managed OK without me so I'll try and get caught up over the next couple of days.


    Ted
     
  6. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    Sorry to hear that Ted, there's no rush. And no need to worry much, I'm up and I need some time to get back in it as well. Someone needs to get the speed of this game back to normal... :mischief:
     
  7. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    OK, so I've read all the reports and looked at the save. What I would like to do, before getting to the nitty-gritty, is discuss long-term strategy. We have played 1/5 of the available turns already and we seem to waver between peaceful and warlike play.

    The ultimate goal is to build a Space-ship (yay! :D) and the rather war-like civs we found on our continent have forced us to focus on military builds the last half of our turns. We now have the most units of any civ in the game. Since war is the way we usually play and Alex has grown powerful by making short work of the Russians, I suggest we try to take on France. And I guess the earlier we start the easier it is.

    My feeling ATM is that in contrast to a civ3 game, trying to take the whole continent will take too much time. So what I suggest we aim for is taking out France, and since I suspect Germany will eliminate Russia at some stage, we could have a powerful research ally in Germany if we are strong enough to discourage his usual back-stabbing.

    So what do you guys think? Nonsense or viable?

    We could in contrast try to weaken Germany to try to be the main power on the continent and force a pax-Azteca where we try to co-tech with many smaller civs rather than one big one, but the stats the game shows is making me fear we will have stiff competition of the other continent.
     
  8. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    I'm not sure we've deliberately wavered between war and peace. Civs declared on us, and we had to defend. We've actually taken peace pretty fast when offered. The level of military production is probably my fault. But we were defending on two fronts, against two civs at once, so they seemed necessary at the time.

    I assume you meant Greece? We haven't met Germany.

    I suspect that Alex is going to continue to try to take us out as long as we let him, and that will deflect our efforts to get to a science victory. If so, we may have to eliminate him just to get some peace and quiet. But what do I know?
     
  9. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    Yes, I meant Greece. :blush:

    And you're right, we haven't deliberately chosen for war, but I don't think we explicitly chose a builder strategy either. And I would feel better if we chose one or the other in a long-term strategy. Having the units isn't a bad thing, so well done! :D We as a civ don't have many natural advantages, so I would think that we would have to fight to get some anyway. I think it would help if we would choose a definite target. If it is to be Alex, I think it would help to choose now.

    I would very much like to get out of the defensive stance and into a more offensive mode. We need to be sure we target Alex not only because he bothers us, but because he has stuff that is helpful to reaching our goal.
     
  10. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    You indicated that it may be possible to harness Alex as a research partner. Is that a well-trodden path in Civ5? If it can be achieved, then we may do better to roll over France, and then collaborate with Greece.
     
  11. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Alex is a known warmonger and his UA allows him to gobble up city-states, giving him extra resources and happiness. He is going to come after us at some point unless we have an army large enough to make him think twice.
    edit - and before he gets superior in tech, making it harder for us to defend.

    Alex has also built the Great Wall, so attacking him will be costly, but even more so later. Or at least until we get Dynamite. Taking him on now may be advantageous because his culture in some cities has not extended far enough to cause us too much grief in trying to take his cities. It will be a tough slog though.

    Our second choice is to take France and help Russia contain Greece, declaring on Greece if he attacks Russia in order to preserve Russia as a partner.

    If we are planning to take France, once we have enough units, we need to turn to Science development to get us to Dynamite. We should initially Puppet French cities while we get National College built in the capital.

    So I guess I am for France first while keeping an eye on Alex and being prepared to repel any aggressive actions by him.

    Would like hear ainwood's take before deciding.
     
  12. ainwood

    ainwood Consultant. Administrator

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    Of the three on our continent, Catherine is probably the most likely to be a long term partner. She can (and does) back stab, but I think she is a bit more rational than the others, but it depends if she gets taken out or not.

    With regards to alex vs nappy, we are the strongest in terms of military strength now, but not in terms of medium term potential. With Alex's expansion, at the expense of cathy, I think he is the biggest threat over the next fifty turns. He is somewhat depleted and distracted at the moment due to his Russian war, but once that is over, he will grow quite strong. His war has given him iron, which he hasn't done much with at present, but he will do.

    As such, I think I'd like to pull alex back a bit, and I think that now is our best opportunity. I. The observations of his assault on Moscow, he seemed to be depleted in units, and sending them to the front lines one by one. I didn't have intel on his inner lands, but this observation is supported by the military demographics.

    Nappy is a valid alternative, but I expect that taking him now allows alex time to regroup, and ultimately makes him more of a threat later.

    With reference to our long term goals, what we need is research agreements, which requires partners with decent relationships, and cash. I'm not really to sure how to reliably promote this with our neighbours, given that they are so hostile. However, the point is that having them strong is not as important as having them rich, as we are not pegged directly to their research rate (as per other civ versions).

    Agree re puppeting now, annexing later.
     
  13. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    Hmmm. I'm thinking we should take out Corinth and Novogrod. Maybe we finish Cathy later. Novogrod looks to be a big prize to this newbie. If we're going to war, then let's go to war - we should probably just pump out cats and swords (until we run out of iron). Probably need a couple more cats. The one in SS is ready in 3 and the one in TK is ready in 7 so should be able to set up in 10 turns. Maybe a dot map of where we want units prior to original engagement will be a good idea. Should also decide how to play the great general.
     
  14. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Do I hear war drums beating in the north? :hammer:

    We should also take along some Archers, to weaken those who dare come out to meet us. ;)
     
  15. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    It sounds like we are coming to a consensus, Alex it is. :) We can decide later whether we save Russia for a more reliable research agreement than Nappy can offer. Does it matter to our diplo relation when Russia asks us to join the fight against Alex?

    A dotmap for unit positioning is a good idea, now that we have a clear target. We can also use it to time our declaration based on the turns we need to get them there.
     
  16. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Yes, Civ5 does give some positive diplo for shared enemy, although that still does not prevent nor lessen the chances of a back stab. :shake:

    Long term plans should include a tech path to Astronomy so we can meet our fellow civs and find more CS'.
     
  17. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    Does it matter whether we say yes to a request or just declare on our own account? Since in both cases we share an enemy.

    I'm all for Astronomy! :D
     
  18. Optional

    Optional Deity

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    lurker's comment: I think I've sometimes seen a 'we fought together against a common foe' modifier, but not often. More common is 'we denounced the same enemies'.
    If you declare war, I would shop around and see who's willing to pay most for this, then at least you get something for it. 200 gold is the max you'll get for it, I believe.

    The diplo in Civ 5 is a lot less refined than in Civ 3. The 'common foe' concept isn't worked out well at all. You can answer a request to go to war in Civ 5 and then be called a warmonger by the same civ who invited you. Also warmonger penalties stay with you for the rest of the game, and when you meet the folks on the other continent they know all about your past and can denounce you for your crimes, even when they can't reasonably know anything about it.
    Luckily for research agreements you don't need to be friends in vanilla, that'll change with Gods & Kings.

    About war tactics; personally I like fighting with a mix of ranged units and horses. Especially when fighting a foe with The Great Wall horse units would be much better. The Great Wall takes off 1 movement point, so 2-move units will become 1-move units, and 4-move units will become 3-move units. 3-move is still not that bad, but 1-move is frustrating and can cost you units. Once you get 3-range artillery you'll make fun of The Great Wall, but that's still a long time away.
     
  19. a space oddity

    a space oddity Deity GOTM Staff

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    Guys, I am busier than expected but I will try to make a military dotmap tonight, in about 12 hours.
     
  20. mad-bax

    mad-bax Deity GOTM Staff

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    Having had another look at the save, we have another policy to adopt in Space's turns and a new tech to start research on. I also believe that we should stop building military units as they are beginning to hurt our finances in upkeep. We have a lot of swords - Probably too many. I think we should put a library in TK once it's finished it's cat.

    No clue what social policy to adopt, and not sure what to research. Compass is tempting.

    Tactically, despite the river, I would attack East to West and avoid getting units between Corinth and the Greek wall. I'm not sure what a great general does so would be interested in finding out.

    We have a lot more units milling around than I thought. I'm no expert but I think my earlier comment about waiting 10 turns is a bit soft. I think we can probably have a go in say 5 turns - particularly if we don't mind losing one or two units.
     

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