Space 5 - Old hands can be newbs too, getting back in the game

[ainwood]

It does stack, afaik. Haven't played Aztecs in a long while, and probably not under current patch. Note that barb farming can be hazardous, given that it takes several turns to kill them, and they will probably fortify.

@Space: yes, you can change builds without penalty, but those hammers dont get applied to the new building or unit, and pre-production is stored and avialable when(if) you switch back. Stored hammers decay after a period of time (can't recall exact numbers) but not significantly enough to be a major deterrent. Nice start, btw.

Also fwiw, I have no problem with the chosen tech path, just wanted to flag that need to consider worker techs if going to build a worker. I would probably get a few worker techs and perhaps something like bronze working or perhaps writing before rushing to optics. Optics costs quite a lot (although it is the cheapest classical era tech). Not a big deal however, and I won't object if someone wants to go for it.

I like writing to get libraries, and start on scientists for an academy. We should find a decent food site for our second city and build an academy there - the north one looks good for that.

 

[a space oddity]

According to the Civilopedia you can't

Bummer

yes, you can change builds without penalty, but those hammers dont get applied to the new building or unit, and pre-production is stored and avialable when(if) you switch back. Stored hammers decay after a period of time (can't recall exact numbers) but not significantly enough to be a major deterrent.

OK, so, maybe we should put that one turn before sailing to a worker, which at some point in the near furture we will always build, or maybe even a settler.

 

[leif erikson]

It seems to me our priority is to get Sailing and get some Work Boats built. On way to hurry that a bit is to research Mining and chopping the forests into Work Boats, as well as mining a few hills, after Sailing.

Do like the idea of Writing and Library, but it may be a bit of time before we can build it in the capital.

Initial reaction is that we should stick with the Social Policy path to Citizenship and free worker before deviating to Honor. Farming Barbs is fine, but you need more units to do so effectively. Also, with nothing to pillage in our city, would send the Jag exploring rather than watching the barb camp. If a barb wanders into the city area, the city can handle him easily, requires 4 turns of bombard to kill him usually.

Not much time atm, will check game save and think about it some more this evening.

 

[a space oddity]

Just out of cutiousity: will we get culture from a Barb that is killed by the city's bombardment too? That way we'll get best of both worlds.

edit:Tried it in a test game and the answer is: no.

 

[mad-bax]

So....

Granary -> workboat
Sailing -> Mining
Social policy - legalism - landed elite
Exploration - Jag1 North, Jag 2 clear fog locally to be available to escort settler?

I'm going to play soon.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry I took so lang to get back to this.

If you haven't played, we should meet the city-state to the north and clear the fog around the river to see what sites might be there to settle. Same to the east for the southern Jag. All those flood plain tiles look juicy if there are any resources available to us, plus Floating garden can be built in a city next to a lake or a river.

I'm a bit rusty on vanilla, only play G&K myself. No Composite Bows in vanilla.
With Nappy so close, may want to think about an early war, Cats, Archers and Warrior/Swords?
Puppets give us their research and gold output and do not tax happiness too much.

 

[mad-bax]

I've just completed the turns. I will post the turnlog and save immediately and at screenies in the next hour or so.

OK here we go.

3600BC:

Jaguar 2 south to forest, reveals ruin.
Jaguar 1 north to borders. We meet Cape Town.



IBT: Nothing of note.

3560BC:
Jaguar 2 North - discover Grand Mesa. How lovely!



Jaguar 1 to ruins - discover survivors - +1 pop in capital. Unit then continues SE to hill - we are now on the coast. To the West it appears to be a peninsula which may be a land bridge, but is more likely to just lead to the ocean. So We're going East.
We are trespassing apparently. I did wonder what would happen if I walked through Cape Town.

IBT: Nothing of note.

3520BC:
Jaguar 1 north.
Jaguar 2 East revealing barbarian horde and blue border under the Fog.

IBT: Barb horde attacks Jaguar 2. It's not pretty - see screenie.



3480BC:
Jaguar 2 cannot run away to the easterly hill (zone of control). All I can do is fortify and hope for the best.
Jaguar 1 North East.
Adopt Social Policy - Legalism.

IBT: Barb Horde loses interest and moves east.

3440BC:
Jaguar 1 goes north revealing barb camp and ruins. Dare I visit the ruins next turn?



Jaguar 2 still in a bad way, remains fortified.

IBT: Meet Alexander of the Greeks. He is neutral. He has appeared from the west and now occupies the ruins tile. I guess my valour will not be tested on this turn.

3400BC:

Jaguar 1 - NE revealing ruin.
Jaguar 2 - still yellow with barbs on adjacent tile. Remain fortified.

IBT: The barbs attack Jaguar 2 again. This time we win decisively.
The Capital grows. Still +3 happy.

3360BC:



Move Jaguar 2 to Easterly hill and meet Venice.
Jaguar 1 explores ruins and discovers map. meh! - as my kids would say.

Discover I can zoom the view with my middle mouse wheel and take a screenie to prove it.

Spoiler :

IBT: Nothing happens

3320BC:

Since there is coast to the north East, Jaguar 1 turns West.
Jaguar 2 heads NE.
The Granary is due next turn - but I can find no advantageous micromanagement tweak.

IBT: Sailing is researched

3280BC:
Granary is completed - next up is workboat due in 8 turns. I was really tempted to pump a settler out to get that city location to the NE.

Research set to mining due in 5 turns.

Jaguar 1 West
Jaguar 2 East

IBT: Nothing happens

3240BC:
Jaguar 1 NW
Jaguar 2 NE

Greece appears to have units all over the place.

IBT: all quiet

3200BC:

Jaguar 1 NE - it's getting cold up there.
Jaguar 2 E. - Desert turns to plains

End of report.

I won't add a screenie of the finish position as it's too big and there is not much going on.

Save is here. Screenshots to follow

View attachment Space 5 Montezuma_0020 BC-3200.Civ5Save

 

[a space oddity]

An extra citizen and some extra happiness, all scouts survive. Well done!

Will check the save later.

Roster:
a space oddity
mad-bax
TedJackson <-- UP
AlanH
leif erikson
ainwood

 

[TedJackson]

I've picked up the save and plan to play tomorrow evening (about 36 hrs from now) to allow discussion of our position and way ahead.

@M-B: looking good lad


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Ted,

Since you are going to play soon, I thought I would put my tuppence in.

I think the continent we are on is Z shaped. The Greeks came at me from the North West. I think we are at the upper elbow of the Z - if you see what I mean.

Venice is in trouble. The barb camp near them is spewing barbs all the time. They may ask for help - but from my experience in that part of the map it's not a good idea to get involved in fighting there.

The advisors keep asking us to build a military unit for our territory. I feel quite uncomfortable continuing to improve the capital without getting at least one settler out. There is a site about 4 tiles NE that is on a hill south of the river with 2 cattle in its first ring. Probably not a brilliant site, but it would kind of cut the north from the South eventually - It could be good strategically.

I was tempted to build Jaguar - then - settler in the capital, and just use the third jaguar to escort settlers back and forth, keep the barbs suppressed, and discourage opportunistic attacks. Once cities are founded they can look after themselves to some extent. One of the reasons I would pump a settler is that looking at the city, it's going to be difficult to keep it growing until it has had massive improvement.

There is a lot of desert to the south and tundra to the North - we need to explore the horizontal legs of the continent (assuming I'm right about the shape).

Given the above build orders, I would research AH after mining to give the 3 cattle pastures. Somehow we need to build a worker for that. Perhaps that could be done through the pre-requisite social policy - but I'm not sure how long that would take - It would be 2 policy steps and I'm not sure how long that would take. I don't have the game available to check.

Anyway, have fun, and keep away from Venice's barbs - they are hard people of questionable parentage....

 

[a space oddity]

I agree on the need to settle a second city on the cows soon. It's not brilliant, but it'll have to do. It'd be interesting if the continent is the shape MB thinks it has. Squeezed is the word I'm thinking of, but good on the long run, hopefully.

 

[leif erikson]

Upon having a good look at the save, a couple of recommendations.

Settling - Our Unique Building is the Floating Garden and requires that we build next to a river or a lake. Thinking we should consider settling our next city on the desert hill located 2 east of the Wheat tile and 3 tiles north of Venice. It is loaded with food (the flood plains) and also brings Wheat, Marble and Banana. With that much food, we can also work the hill tiles in the area once mined. Also brings in commerce due to the river.

If we still wish to settle near the Cows to the northeast, would like to clear the fog east of Cape Town to see what resources are available to the city. Should settle it on the river, probably on the east side, perhaps on the northern most plains tile we can see. Again, depends upon the resources?

Not sure we are ready for another city yet, we need to grow the capital some and get at least one happy resource. But if we choose the site near Venice, we should do it fairly soon to prevent Venice from spreading its culture too much.

Tech and defense - With Barbs and potential enemies close, we should consider getting Archery soon. In the early game, Archers are the best defenders and can help take out cities. Setting up a couple of Archer/Jaguar teams to take Barb Camps would get us experience and, hopefully with some City State missions to clear Barbs, an Allied Maritime CS to give us some food.

Should also consider the need for Writing and Libraries. As our population increases, Libraries become more productive.

Social Policies - With a second city, we will need Workers. Should adopt Liberty and Citizenship for free Worker.

Workers - Need to watch the Barb Camps because if they capture a Worker, we can take that Worker by capturing the Barb Camp. It may pay to leave the Barb Camps alone until we either get a mission to destroy one for a CS or one has a Worker present.

 

[TedJackson]

Thanks for the input guys & gal

I've had a quick look at the save this morning and here are my initial thoughts.

MMM M-BR setting focus to Production and locking Cattle, Stone, Whale and one of the fish tiles to ensure food supply

Let the Workboat complete then switch to Jag followed by a Settler to take the hill on the Floodplains to the East (as per Leif's suggestion) and pop a Settler from this new city ASAP to capture the 2 cows site.

We should get an SP opportunity in a couple of turns and think the best use is either Honour (for the barb & culture bonuses) or Liberty (culture bonus and leads to Collective rule or citizenship).

I tend to agree with Leif that Archery should probably be our next tech to allow combined arms.

Exploration is a problem. The Northern Jag can either: head NE hoping to find ruins or a wonder; head S then SW to fill in the map above Cape Town (avoiding the barb camp for now). I'n not sure which is likely to be more profitable but feel that maybe the latter choice would be better.

I'll be playing in about 8 hours so keep the suggestions rolling in


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

Let the Workboat complete then switch to Jag followed by a Settler to take the hill on the Floodplains to the East (as per Leif's suggestion) and pop a Settler from this new city ASAP to capture the 2 cows site.

The southern Cow will be in the Capital's third ring.

We should be a bit judicious in settling cities with no luxury resources as Civ5 uses collective happiness. Getting into unhappiness is not terrible, we lose production and food for growth, for temporary situations. Trying to stay just above the happy cap should be our goal.

So settling cities without some happy resources should be done if that city provides excellent production, or provides some other advantage that we can use.

 

[TedJackson]

... We should be a bit judicious in settling cities with no luxury resources as Civ5 uses collective happiness. Getting into unhappiness is not terrible, we lose production and food for growth, for temporary situations. Trying to stay just above the happy cap should be our goal.

So settling cities without some happy resources should be done if that city provides excellent production, or provides some other advantage that we can use.

Point taken leif. Still got my Civ 3 head on I guess


Ted

 

[AlanH]

Well played so far, Space and M-B.

Sorry I've been quiet - I'm still here, and I've been lurking, and downloading the saves. I haven't had time to do any serious research on the options yet, so I had nothing to contribute to the discussions. But I'm on deck, and I'll get my thinking head on in the next day or two - if I can find it - and try to work out how to screw up my turn set after Ted has played a blinder.

 

[mad-bax]

OK - so maybe we can make the play something like this

Research: Mining -> Archery -> Writing
Social policy: Liberty -> Citizenship -> Collective rule (for free settler)
Production: Finish workboat -> Archer -> workboat

Settler goes to Leif's suggested site.

I am still not sure where we are going to get the food from to grow the capital past pop 5.

In any case the above plan goes way out past Teds turns. I would just like to get a feel for some longer term strategy, rather than just tactical empire management.

 

[TedJackson]

Space V - Old hands can be newbs too

Pre-flight checks… OK

Switch Mad-Bax' Return to Production Focus and Lock Cattle, Stone and 2 Fish - F:5 P:6 G:5 S:7 C:6. Workboat & growth due in 6 turns.

Press the big, blue button…

IBT: NTR

1 - 3160BC
Northern Jag NE2 - spots CS border NE
Southern Jag Se, E - spots barbs 2SW & Greek Archer E, NE

IBT: Greece announce they are protecting Genoa

2 - 3120BC
Choose Liberty as our next SP leads to Collective Rule (free Settler) or Citizenship (free Worker) - F:5 P:6 G:5 S:7 C:7
Northern Jag E2 - discovers Genoa (Maritime, Neutral, Dyes x1) who gift us 15g - spots Barb camp 2E of our position
Southern Jag heals

IBT: Discover Mining , Greece founds Sparta 4S, 1E of Athens

3 - 3080BC
Set research to Archery
Northern Jag 2SE
Southern Jag heals

IBT: Borders expand to capture Whale

4 - 3040BC
Northern Jag 2SE (following the coast 2 tiles in)
Southern Jag heals - spots French Warrior W, NW & bar camp pops barb Warrior W, SW

IBT: We're the World's 3rd busiest nation

5 - 3000BC
Northern Jag E, SE - spots Marble, Sheep, Cattle and Silver on coast, sigh
Southern Jag SE, E (to hill) - discovers Tyre (Militaristic, Hostile, Dyes x1) who gift us 15g and are plagued by barbarians. Jag also spots Southern coast.

IBT: Workboat completes & Population grows

6 - 2960BC
MM M-BR to lock Whale
Start anther Workboat (hope to get lucky and be able to buy a Jag)
Northern Jag SE - meets Russian Warrior (friendly, no trade possible) - continues SE - spots Russian border 2E
Southern Jag 2E following French (I think) borders
Send Workboat to Whales (sic), will arrive in 2 turns - spots Barb camp & barbs SW of Capetown

IBT: Border expands to capture NW Pearls

7 - 2920BC
Northern Jag SE, SW
Southern Jag 2NE
Workboat arrives at Whales and creates a Fishing boat - F:6 P:6 G:7 S:8 C:7

IBT: Archery discovered

8 - 2880BC
Start researching Animal Husbandry
Northern Jag SE, SW - spots wounded barb W, SW - an opportunity for some action maybe?
Southern Jag NW to hill - spots Paris (pop 3) on a river

IBT: NTR

9 - 2840BC
Northern Jag NW, W to attack wounded barb - success!
Southern Jag NE - spots Wine

IBT: Alexander enters the Classical Era

10 - 2800BC
Northern Jag SW, SE - spotted Greek Settler & escort N, NW and barb E, SE
Southern Jag 2NE - spots more Wines

Notes:
next Citizen due in 6 turns, Workboat due in 4 turns.
Gold 139 (+4)
Happiness 6
Golden Age 119/500
Culture 64/105 (+7)

I went with another Workboat hoping to get lucky and be able to purchase a Jag but that didn't work out

Greece seem to be settling quite aggressively - Sparta founded and I caught sight of another Settler & escort. Athens is at pop 4

France are only pop3 but seem to have a fair few military units roaming around.

I didn't get close enough to Russia to spot Moscow but I saw 2 or 3 Russian Warriors out exploring.

The Whales are still only producing 2g - it's probably some secondary rule I'm as yet unaware off but I thought it should have improved to 3f, 3g

Addendum:
PhotoShop is throwing a Hissy Fit so no pictures I'll see if I can get some sorted tomorrow.

The save is here: View attachment Space 5 Montezuma_0030 BC-2800.Civ5Save


Ted

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work Ted, now we have some decisions to make. First, some advice. Instead of the fishing boat working the whales to start, we probably should have worked one of the pearl tiles because of trade considerations below.

Trading - Both Alex and Nappy have nearly 300 Gold each. We can trade the whale to them for 240 gold, enough to purchase a work boat, or added to our gold at hand, a worker. If we trade away a pearl, we can replace it with a second work boat, but if we trade the whale, we lose it for 30 turns unless we decided to break the deal by declaring war (this is a bit cheesy to me, but it is how some play).

Should think about an Archer in the capital when we can.

As we are not quite ready to build a settler, perhaps we should consider trading the whale to Alex (see if he becomes more friendly?) and purchasing a Worker with the cash, get a hill mined, see if any horses appear and then pasture horses or cow south of the capital.

Hope Legalism works as it does in G&K, giving a free culture building to our first four cities as we build them. In the initial release, it gave a free culture building to up to four cities, if they existed. They did not save them for later like G&K does. When we build a new city, need to check and see if we received the free Monument.

Before we can get the free Settler, we have to go through Collective Rule.

The potential city site up east of Cape Town looks pretty good now, wheat on a river tile is always nice. If we can only find a happy resource to the east, will be very happy to settle there.
Venice is creeping towards our second city site.

Paris looks like a nice place to conquer.

 

[Northern Pike]

{delurk}

Some great discussion so far, basic enough to enlighten even a non-player.

{lurk}