Specialist Economy? - What am I doing wrong?

[Kallikrates]

I was never interested in a high score. I am interested in winning somewhat consistently on immortal (not only on very favorable maps). As I didn't get specialists at all when I started the game on noble or so (I thought they were popping up completely at random...) and am still at a loss with some specialists I am interested in all kinds of tricks with them. But it seems that the "traditional" options (bulbing, trade mission) are the best.

On isolation games the early GM can be used for bulbing Currency or Metal casting. Or if one has caste available and enough food, probably trigger a Golden Age hoping to generate a Scientist.
I am not sure about later GM bulbs because I guess with caravels a trade mission usually yields more gold than the available bulb beakers and gold is more flexible.

The problem are priests. One is sometimes needed for a shrine. Also settling them is not too bad, I guess. 5 gold independent of the slider and two hammers are not bad in the BCs. When I tried a bulbing path to CS wiht prophets desribed somewhere a few weeks ago I ended up doing something else. It seemed very situational but there are some bulbs prophets can be used for. Unfortunately one often has to avoid some important techs or be able to trade quite early for the cheap religious techs (if one gets Poly and Priesthood for the oracle, an early priest from the Oracle GPpoints one still needs meditation, masonry and monotheism before having anything worthwhile to bulb).

Overall I think that prophets and artists are too weak in most games. They should have some better mid/late bulbing options.

 

[Lennier]

When the stars align, I sometimes use a GPro to bulb theology and then follow up with a GE to build the AP. But I usually use GPros and GAs for GAs.

 

[Bibor]

Hi CrazyDazz and welcome to the forums.

Don't let these people confuse you. I bet they forgot those heated discussions that happened here many years ago.

To answer your question, SE (Specialist Economy) is not a basic economy type in CIV4. Obviously you can go and try how far SE gets you, but if you want the "clear answer", here it is.

In most of your games, you probably shouldn't strictly focus on any sort of economy type anyway. The primary effect on what you do will be dictated by what your cities' terrain can sustain and/or create. From there, you tune it to your wishes, civ traits, leader traits, political situation, desired victory type etc.

If you plan to play a long game (i.e. not a fast conquest/domination victory), some transitions in your economy will occur. Real civ4 masters (which I am not) are going to seamlessly use high advantage economy types for each part of their game, maximizing their effect.

** Major Economies:
There are two major economy types in Civ4: The Cottage Economy (CE) and Food Economy (FE). Following the logic that a tile can either hold a cottage or farm, but not both at the same time, this division makes the most sense to me.

Food Economy (FE)
FE presumes that you generate a high surplus of food which, in turn, is used to sustain specialists, production (working mines and workshops), or converted into production by whipping. It's flexible in citizen allocation and it's easy to rebuild if pillaged or nuked. At some point, in its pure form, it loses its "oomph" to CE. If your game extends to modern times, you'll have to transition into a hammer economy (State Property+Espionage) or into CE.

Cottage Economy (CE)
In the CE your aim is to work and grow cottages as fast and as much as possible. If you are aiming for pure science or culture output, CE eventually beats FE. However, its very inflexible with its citizen allocation: cottages have to be worked if they are to grow. Any population loss, pillaging, nukes or switching to production hurts your economy.

Hybrid Economy (HE)
As you get into higher difficulties, you'll mostly use a Hybrid Economy which uses components of both. Chris' deity videos on youtube are all fine showcases on how to do both FE and CE at the same time, balancing the advantages and disadvantages of both from the very start.

** Minor Economies:

Plugging into the above mentioned two economies, there are numerous minor economies. Each have their strenghts and weaknesses, but the reason why they are minor is that they usually don't last through the whole game. Instead, you should use them when they are strongest and then switch out of them when not needed anymore. Some wonders are so powerful that they merit an individual mention. Even if I tried to list them all, I'd probably miss some, but here are some general guidelines on what I've read, viewed or played so far:

Religious Economy
Specialist Economy (SE)
Wonder Economy (WE) in general
Hammer Economy
Pyramids
The Great Lighthouse
Espionage
War (pillage, city capture, extortion)
Bureaucratic cottage capital
Trade research (deliberate detour to trade magnet techs)

 

[Seraiel]

You forgot the hammer-economy, which is one of the best economies, especially when playing a space race. Hammer economy is also good for Domination / Conquest games though, because in those games, additional hammers are worth more than anything else, because they're all about troop-buildup. Ofc, the Food-economy when whipping is a little stronger in the last two, but Hammer-economy is better in terms of happiness.

 

[Bibor]

You forgot the hammer-economy, which is one of the best economies, especially when playing a space race. Hammer economy is also good for Domination / Conquest games though, because in those games, additional hammers are worth more than anything else, because they're all about troop-buildup. Ofc, the Food-economy when whipping is a little stronger in the last two, but Hammer-economy is better in terms of happiness.

You're right. In my defense, I did mention it in the Food Economy segment.

 

[DrCron]

The reason specialist economy is so important, EVEN specialist-ONLY economy, is because sometimes you MUST run it successfully in order to win. If you roll a start that has zip CE potential and your surrounding land is the same, you better damn well run some specialists to get your economy going.

Which kind of map would this be? How can one recognize a start that requires an early SE?

And following on a related topic: when would you guys run Caste System instead of Slavery? Are cultural victories and GAs the only scenarios in which this makes sense?

 

[bhavv]

For what it's worth, (Great) Scientists don't really benefit from Bureaucracy. The civic boosts and , whereas Scientists produce .

A settled Great Scientist adds 1H, but that's not the most convincing reason to settle.

The beakers a settled great scientist provides also get multiplied by science buildings. With a library, university, observatory, oxford and an academy, each one can provide 27 bpt.

 

[Izuul]

Which kind of map would this be? How can one recognize a start that requires an early SE?

And following on a related topic: when would you guys run Caste System instead of Slavery? Are cultural victories and GAs the only scenarios in which this makes sense?

IMO it's not good to get locked into this thinking of CE and SE. Anytime you play a map you need to look at what you have available to work with (both lands and leader traits), and from there look at all viable sources of commerce. Sometimes you will benefit from running more specialists, but even so that does not mean you are running an "SE" nor does it mean you shouldn't be doing other things to generate commerce while running those specialists.

As for Caste vs Slavery, that can be difficult. Spiritual leaders can switch back to forth to leverage both. If not spiritual you can sometimes switch into caste after the initial expansion/building phase once your core cities are settled and the important buildings (granary, maybe library, etc) are built.

 

[yyeah]

As for Caste vs Slavery, that can be difficult. Spiritual leaders can switch back to forth to leverage both. If not spiritual you can sometimes switch into caste after the initial expansion/building phase once your core cities are settled and the important buildings (granary, maybe library, etc) are built.

I would only add here 1 more thing witch is v importand to me, amount of forest in your core cities.
If i have decent amount of forest its easier to make decision running caste/pacifism(probably) instand of slav/org rel, beocuse it doesnt hurts your producion power that much.

 

[Erlend78]

As other have said; hybrid economy is usually the best approach! Strong capital with cottages and hammers, and Bureaucracy!

SE can be fun though, as a variation. I would only consider SE if philosophical and much food+stone (pyramids) nearby, and thats not that often. If someone "steals" the pyramids (which is a risk, especially at higher levels) i would give it up. Go back to CE or restart