Speculation on civ unlocks in the base game

[Siptah]

On this part, I don't mind requirements being too similar. But I think they need to be more gameplay than thematic. For example, the idea of having settlements on the new continent unlocking America makes sense thematically, but don't think it is a good choice for unlock if it is doesn't work gameplay wise. If America is a civ that bonuses are focused on having cities in multiple continents and the like, then that would work, but if not then I think the unlock has to be something else.

The reason being, I think the unlock works better if they are well tuned with the bonuses the civ gives, so you naturally unlock civs that work well with what you have accomplished so far. Sadly the only example we have been revealed for gameplay unlock so far is Mongolia, and horses is something that would likely work with it both thematically and gameplay wise, so we don't know exactly if they will work on one way or the other.

So for example, if America has no bonuses about having cities in multiple continent I would rather the unlock have nothing to do with that. Instead, it be an unlock for lets says, Britain, if it has bonuses for that if the civ is based on Britain imperialism.

Yeah, you're right with the unlocks being tied to civ gameplay - that would be cool and automatically lead to having civs available that build on your current strengths/achievements instead of being like civ VI eureka (condition fulfilled, you can now forget about it). But then again, the one example we know is quite dubious here. Mongols require horses, but horses might be obsolete in the exploration age? I mean, if any resources have to become obsolete with ages, the ones that give bonuses to units seem prime candidates.

 

[stealth_nsk]

And then, at least from what I got from one interview, the unlock system itself is, partially, to limit too much choice at once, to not get the player overwhelmed with what they would pick next. In particular when they're new to the game. If you go next age and has 11 options, it would take a long time analyzing every one, what each them do, and can lead to someone just picking any instead of evaluate the options they have. And that is at release, later on the options will just increase more and more.

There's a difference between new and experienced players. New players will face only limited set of civ / leader unlocks and that's ok, while experience player will have an opportunity to unlock any civ they want through quests. Looks quite good to me.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

And then, at least from what I got from one interview, the unlock system itself is, partially, to limit too much choice at once, to not get the player overwhelmed with what they would pick next. In particular when they're new to the game. If you go next age and has 11 options, it would take a long time analyzing every one, what each them do, and can lead to someone just picking any instead of evaluate the options they have. And that is at release, later on the options will just increase more and more.

On this part, I don't mind requirements being too similar. But I think they need to be more gameplay than thematic. For example, the idea of having settlements on the new continent unlocking America makes sense thematically, but don't think it is a good choice for unlock if it is doesn't work gameplay wise. If America is a civ that bonuses are focused on having cities in multiple continents and the like, then that would work, but if not then I think the unlock has to be something else.

The reason being, I think the unlock works better if they are well tuned with the bonuses the civ gives, so you naturally unlock civs that work well with what you have accomplished so far. Sadly the only example we have been revealed for gameplay unlock so far is Mongolia, and horses is something that would likely work with it both thematically and gameplay wise, so we don't know exactly if they will work on one way or the other.

So for example, if America has no bonuses about having cities in multiple continent I would rather the unlock have nothing to do with that. Instead, it be an unlock for lets says, Britain, if it has bonuses for that if the civ is based on Britain imperialism.

This shouldn't be an either/or situation. Good game design is supposed to achieve both thematic and gameplay relevance.

 

[chaosprophet]

This shouldn't be an either/or situation. Good game design is supposed to achieve both thematic and gameplay relevance.

Oh yes. it actually expected to be so as the abilities of each civ are themed to that civ history. I think would be better for me to have said just thematically unlocks. Which I go with the example of America again. We don't know how the particular implementation of it will go this time, but the idea of unlocking it by having cities in a new continent is more about how america formed, and now how it is, so likely to be something that fits it only thematically and not gameplay wise.

Yeah, you're right with the unlocks being tied to civ gameplay - that would be cool and automatically lead to having civs available that build on your current strengths/achievements instead of being like civ VI eureka (condition fulfilled, you can now forget about it). But then again, the one example we know is quite dubious here. Mongols require horses, but horses might be obsolete in the exploration age? I mean, if any resources have to become obsolete with ages, the ones that give bonuses to units seem prime candidates.

You make a good point about horses that we don't know yet. But at least from this point of the history build in layers stream, when he gives the example of mongolia and horses, ED comments how if you built a strong cavalry and collected all those horses resources you may want to keep that momentum going and select Mongolia, seems to imply they are still a thing in exploration. But at least, they probably won't be a resource anymore on Modern.

 

[Krikkit1]

Oh yes. it actually expected to be so as the abilities of each civ are themed to that civ history. I think would be better for me to have said just thematically unlocks. Which I go with the example of America again. We don't know how the particular implementation of it will go this time, but the idea of unlocking it by having cities in a new continent is more about how america formed, and now how it is, so likely to be something that fits it only thematically and not gameplay wise.

You make a good point about horses that we don't know yet. But at least from this point of the history build in layers stream, when he gives the example of mongolia and horses, ED comments how if you built a strong cavalry and collected all those horses resources you may want to keep that momentum going and select Mongolia, seems to imply they are still a thing in exploration. But at least, they probably won't be a resource anymore on Modern.

That depends on Americas bonuses.
If they get bonuses for rapidly razing and recolonizing and/or naval defense of a continent (would make sense for 1800s focused America), then that would make sense.

 

[Siptah]

You make a good point about horses that we don't know yet. But at least from this point of the history build in layers stream, when he gives the example of mongolia and horses, ED comments how if you built a strong cavalry and collected all those horses resources you may want to keep that momentum going and select Mongolia, seems to imply they are still a thing in exploration. But at least, they probably won't be a resource anymore on Modern.

Yeah, it's just loose speculation from my side at this point, because I think it's the empire wide resources (like marble, iron, and horses) that become obsolete. In than vein, Ed's comment could also be understood as: you had many horses, which gave you good cavalry units in antiquity. Now, horses are obsolete, but you can upgrade all your cavalry to this cool unique mongol horsemen unit - or Mongols getting +CS/+MP for Cavalry units in general. If you become Ming instead, your fine horsemen will become merely average.

 

[uppi]

I think every civ will have a gameplay unlock, no matter how many DLC civs are in the game eventually. Maybe some are just pretty easy/similar to unlock and the unlock is not that interesting. E.g., 20 pops on the new continent might unlock Brazil, 5 mines on the new continent might unlock Australia, 2 cities (not towns) might unlock America, and often you'd get all three with the same strategies. I don't think it's a problem if the player has usually 15+ civ choices per era.

Countexample: We have seen what appeared to be the exhaustive list of what unlocks Songhai and it was Egypt, Aksum and Amina with no gameplay unlock. Although gameplay unlocks could easily be added later (you would just need to come up with something unique). Or might not even appear on this screen (although I think they should)

Hmm. Now that I think about it, Normans not unlocking America kind of makes sense.
America can be a gameplay unlock (something-something other side of the map). And leader unlock. And then in Crossroads of the World we get exploration England, which will have America and Britain as historical paths.

I do not doubt that exploration England will come at some point, but I do doubt that it will be part of the first DLC packs. Not when there are other, much more blatant holes to fill.

 

[Evolena]

Countexample: We have seen what appeared to be the exhaustive list of what unlocks Songhai and it was Egypt, Aksum and Amina with no gameplay unlock. Although gameplay unlocks could easily be added later (you would just need to come up with something unique). Or might not even appear on this screen (although I think they should)

That's my personal hypothesis: this screen only list "play as (Civ/Leader)" unlocks, and one gameplay unlock for every civ displayed separately.

 

[Krikkit1]

Yeah, it's just loose speculation from my side at this point, because I think it's the empire wide resources (like marble, iron, and horses) that become obsolete. In than vein, Ed's comment could also be understood as: you had many horses, which gave you good cavalry units in antiquity. Now, horses are obsolete, but you can upgrade all your cavalry to this cool unique mongol horsemen unit - or Mongols getting +CS/+MP for Cavalry units in general. If you become Ming instead, your fine horsemen will become merely average.

Not every empire resource goes obsolete

 

[Siptah]

Not every empire resource goes obsolete

Is that a fact? Or speculation?

 

[Krikkit1]

Is that a fact? Or speculation?

Speculation, like the idea that every empire resource would go obsolete.

All we know is that some resources will go obsolete.

Maybe all empire resources do, and no city resources do, maybe some empire ones do and some don't. Maybe it only happens in the Third Age, etc.

That said looking at horses in the Second Age specifically, no good reason for them to obsolete or not. (Third Age they probably would based on both less relevance and ability to maintain populations of desirable breeds more easily)

 

[Kulko]

After this weeks stream, it is confirmed that greece and rome leads to spain. which begs the question who leads to the normans. With greek influence in Sicily it would make sense to have greece unlock them, but I would find both rome and greece leading to the same unlocks very boring but it seems we have those pathes in there?

Also are we sure yet that the Incas are in the game? With Maya and Mexiko in the game I would assume tthe aztecs are the more likely exploration Civ I would think. They would also be a better fit as an unlock for the Mississippian.

Rome	Norman
Rome	Spain
Greece	Spain
Greece	Norman?
Persia	Mongols
Persia	Abbasids?
Egypt	Abbasids
Egypt	Songhai
Aksum	Chola ??
Aksum	Songhai
Maurya	Chola
Mayrya	Majapahit ??
Han	Ming
Han	Mongols ?
Khmer	Majapahit ??
Khmer	Ming ??
Maya	Inca/Aztec ?
Maya	Hawaii ??
Mississippian	Inca/Aztec ??
Mississippian	Hawaii ??

 

[Evolena]

which begs the question who leads to the normans. With greek influence in Sicily it would make sense to have greece unlock them, but I would find both rome and greece leading to the same unlocks very boring but it seems we have those pathes in there?

Don't we already know that from the Age transition during the Antiquity stream? Norman were unlocked by playing as Rome, Greece and a hidden thing (probably a leader).

 

[Kulko]

Don't we already know that from the Age transition during the Antiquity stream? Norman were unlocked by playing as Rome, Greece and a hidden thing (probably a leader).

Ah yes, you are right. How uninspired.

 

[Archanist]

[Table of Civ Unlocks]

Here's a quick visualization of how this looks, and this looks like a good estimation if each civ unlocks 2 and gets unlocked by 2.

Three islands: Europe, Americas, and Africa/Asia. This looks good gameplay wise if a player uses a civilization unlock, but I'm not sure how the AI will choose if a player uses a leader unlock.

Ex:
Player playing Isabella (Han) and chooses Spain. What civilization will AI Franklin (Greece) and Machiavelli (Rome) pick for exploration?

 

[Krikkit1]

Khmer should probably unlock Chola as well
and Greece should probably unlock Abbasids as well
Hawaii should probably be unlocked by Maya and Majapahit, Mississippi can just be Inca (or Inca and Norman)

 

[Ronaldo_]

I know there's still supposedly on 30 at launch but this has been my speculations for a while now. Really hoping we get Goth, Habsburg, or German/Prussian representation in the base game without DLC, although that seems less and less likely.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Also are we sure yet that the Incas are in the game?

We've seen something that looks pretty much as Terrace Farms.

Now this would be enough to justify it being a unique Suzerain bonus BUT, I also believe we've seen Incan looking Units, and we have Macchu Picchu as a Wonder, which points to Incas being a playable civilization.

It's also not clear if Independent Nations get their own unit art.

 

[Kulko]

Here's a quick visualization of how this looks, and this looks like a good estimation if each civ unlocks 2 and gets unlocked by 2.

Three islands: Europe, Americas, and Africa/Asia. This looks good gameplay wise if a player uses a civilization unlock, but I'm not sure how the AI will choose if a player uses a leader unlock.

Ex:
Player playing Isabella (Han) and chooses Spain. What civilization will AI Franklin (Greece) and Machiavelli (Rome) pick for exploration?

Thanks for the cool visualization.
As for your question, in that case the AI chooses a civilization it unlocked through gameplay, although I wonder what happens when the AI doesn't manage this. For instance Xerxes in the last livestream didn't look like he had an empire that would fulfil a lot of requirements for a civ unlock. But I assume there is a failsave built in for him to choose any other civ.

Khmer should probably unlock Chola as well
and Greece should probably unlock Abbasids as well
Hawaii should probably be unlocked by Maya and Majapahit, Mississippi can just be Inca (or Inca and Norman)

It maybe that some Civs unlock 3 option in the base game already, but I doubt it. But I am pretty sure they said in one of their first streams about CIV unlocks, that each Civ always unlocks 2 options.

We've seen something that looks pretty much as Terrace Farms.

Now this would be enough to justify it being a unique Suzerain bonus BUT, I also believe we've seen Incan looking Units, and we have Macchu Picchu as a Wonder, which points to Incas being a playable civilization.

It's also not clear if Independent Nations get their own unit art.

Sounds convincing. I just wonder, if you are at the point where Spain and Inca are in the game and you are looking for a modern civ both can unlock, how you end up with Mexiko instead of Colombia or Argentina.

Anyways I am still missing an exciting eastern unlock for Greece Something along the ways of Byzanz -> Ottomans/Modern Russia) or even cooler an unlock into an exploration age Russia exploring siberia. Hopefully something like this will come out in the Crossroads of the World.
And looking at this list, they are massively underrepresenting the real powers of the exploration age. Europe is only shown with spain and early medevial britain. No dutch, no portughese, Not the england of Elizabeth and Drake, which would fit perfect into a piraty naval gameplay which they want to push. Some very peculiar choices madein that age.

 

[Evolena]

But I am pretty sure they said in one of their first streams about CIV unlocks, that each Civ always unlocks 2 options.

However the Songhai selected screen shown in the Gameplay preview only had Buganda listed as a Modern unlock. One could say it was an early build, but In the Exploration stream we've seen the Spain selected screen and yet again only one Modern unlock, Mexico... (Norman in the Antiquity stream had 2).