*Spoiler1* Gotm17- Early Specific Map

[cracker]

Looks like Cramus Yndius to me!

And since you have absolutely no military in any of your cities I would point out that some other people could pay close attention to what you may be doing.

 

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by cgannon64
Thebes was a size 5 city on a hill. 10 Mercs attacked, 10 Mercs went down. I didn't kill ONE Egyptian Spear. There were three Spears in total.

I would also be careful about rivers. In my game Thebes was on a river in the hill area which due to city, hill, and river overlaps made it hard to see if I was attacking across a river.

The difference for you thanks to the combat calculator http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html is -
With a Veteran unit with an attack value of 2 against a Fortified Spearman in a town, on a hill and across a river you have the following chance of success: Veteran Defender - 17.3%, Regular – 32%, Conscript – 53.9%, Redlined – 80.2%

Even without the river the odds are: Veteran Defender – 22.3%, Regular – 38.1%, Conscript – 59.7%, Redlined – 83.6%

Still while not guaranteeing taking the town the fact that you did not defeat 1 defender was a bit of bad luck. My guess is that your defenders had several promotions which meant that several units effectively remained at full strength for each round of combat. By round I mean that the three strongest defenders takes out three attackers, three and a bit times.

Now, with a Veteran Sword (not across a river) you have a 41.7% chance of taking out that Vet sucker.

 

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Going for a single city cultural win in monarchy instead of republic?

Not a bad idea as Sir Pleb has indicated the happiness requirement. Happy faces mean more shield tiles can be worked to get that improvement quicker.

Also for a 20K culture it is the early stuff that is important – those early temple, library, GL, Colosseum and Gardens double every 1000 years. Monarchy as a leap into the medieval stage is enough to get to Sistines, Bachs and Shakespeare (especially on Regent). These plus Universities and Cathedrals are enough to put SP’s city well on the way (29 cpt already). My guess by then it will be trade which allows the change of government.

 

[cracker]

FYI, for anyone who may be keeping a unit names list, the players who found the eqWorker hiding under the volcano with Aeson should recognize that eqWorker as really being "Creepster" in disguise.

Creepster and Aeson went to Mardi Gras together and Creepster got so wangdoozled that he forgot what his name was.

Or perhaps the story should be that Creepster worked so hard on receiving all the Gotm16 game files that this made him want to forget what his name was.

 

[Txurce]

TWO QUESTIONS.

Building Carthage close to the flood plains, as opposed to on the coast, seems to have made the biggest single difference in early exapnsion and research rate. Everyone who did so first moved the worker onto a mountain. Had the worker revealed nothing good, the move would have been a complete waste. So my question is, why did all of you do it anyway? Do you always take an elevated gander, if one is possible? Or was there something about the map or (avergae) starting postion that made the risk seem worthwhile?

Indy and SirPleb (and maybe others) also built cities so close to each other that mid-game development will be compromised. I've never done this for a dubious reason - the aesthetics bother me - but I can get over that. What makes you not care about stunting a city (or cities), apart from the immediate advantage of milking rich tiles?

 

[Yndy]

@ Txurce
Q1. I did not scout with the worker. I stated in the Pre-game thread that going south would be my preference in order to clear the jungle. I was just stubborn but the truth is that a power tile make the movement of the settler and of the worker worthwhile.
Still, if the starting position was a bonus grassland instead of a hill I would have started to work the tile with the worker and moved the settler.

Q2 My plan was to use the 5 floodplains as soon as possible. That made it worthwhile as I had extra food to expand very fast even without a granary (no granary built on my map). The other reason may be high score, more towns sharing one luxury = more happy people.

After testing I found that the early advantage makes up for any stunting in the future and I just stuck to that building pattern.

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Txurce
Building Carthage close to the flood plains, as opposed to on the coast, seems to have made the biggest single difference in early exapnsion and research rate. Everyone who did so first moved the worker onto a mountain. Had the worker revealed nothing good, the move would have been a complete waste. So my question is, why did all of you do it anyway? Do you always take an elevated gander, if one is possible? Or was there something about the map or (avergae) starting postion that made the risk seem worthwhile?

I won't usually waste a worker turn taking a gander. There were two reasons I did so on this map:
1) The area Carthage could work from the start position did not include any food bonus. If a food bonus were available by moving a bit the advantage is very large: No need to start by expending effort on granary, can pump settlers right away. I would probably move my settler at the start just to get an unirrigatable wheat.
2) I had worked out in advance my build sequence using the start position. Going flat-out from the start position I figured it would produce:
turn 14 (3350), learn Pottery
turn 18, build Granary before second growth
turn 20, build warrior
turn 25, settler1 produced
turn 31, settler2 produced
Then I worked out what would happen if I wasted a worker move first. Everything came out the same except the date for learning Pottery, which was one turn later. The production all came out the same! (Because there'd been production overruns when the worker wasn't moved first.)
So that meant it was a fairly cheap thing to look with the worker, not much lost if he saw nothing useful.

Originally posted by Txurce
Indy and SirPleb (and maybe others) also built cities so close to each other that mid-game development will be compromised. I've never done this for a dubious reason - the aesthetics bother me - but I can get over that. What makes you not care about stunting a city (or cities), apart from the immediate advantage of milking rich tiles?

This does not necessarily stunt the cities. It would stunt them if you kept on repeating it. But suppose all you have on a big landscape is two cities two tiles apart - they'd each have a very large area to work, in the direction away from each other. They'd have more than you could work before Hospitals in fact.

You can compensate for the tight spacing by placing subsequent cities further out. (Or not, which can also be a very powerful style, but that's another story, with that style you won't have powerhouses later in the game unless you eventually abandon some of your early cities.)

The advantages of the tight placement are:
1) You settle faster. The settler gets to the second location very quickly, in one move if you've roaded appropriately.
2) You can share your best tiles between the two cities. If you have three very good tiles (due to bonuses or your worker's first tasks), you might have one of your first two cities pop a settler and be size one. Now you can only use one of the good tiles in it. But the other city might be size 2 or 3 at the time and can use the other ones. You can keep the best tiles in constant use this way.

Just how strong those advantages are depends very much on the map of course. On this map I found the tight placement of the first two cities very powerful.

 

[Phantom Lord]

Originally posted by Shillen
"Originally posted by Soandso."?

@Shillen: Just use the "Quote" button in the upper right corner of the message you want to quote.

 

[Singularity]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


According to my note:

3450 BC: Discovered Pottery
3450 BC: Finished the Granary
2800 BC: Carthage finished 1st Settler
2750 BC: Founded Utica
2590 BC: Carthage finished 2nd settler
2470 BC: Founded Leptis Magna
2430 BC: Utica finished 1st Worker
2150 BC: Carthage finished the barracks

This is probably the most extreme expansionrate I've seen so far. I guess luxury tax was an important tool to make this possible

 

[Matt P]

Amazing effort Yndy to get 14 cities on that island. I'm starting to use a version of ICS but that takes the cake.

I'm probably one of the few that hasn't decided to have a go at the Egyptians. I wanted to try to grab as much land as I could so I played peacefully building towns and infrastrucutre. Then, with all the land taken, Egypt launched an attack.

I fought a defensive war and after one of my mercenaries won a battle, I began my golden age.

I love the idea of the fog and the volcanoes and I hope that remains for all future GOTM's. The map is certainly a challenge. It wasn't quite what I was expecting. But I suppose, that would have made it too easy.

Great work Cracker !

 

[flexo]

I had a little looksie with my worker and decided to stay in the starting place founding my capital there. It turned out to be quite well, Cathage developing into the wonder capital of the world.

The Island hopping order where: Main island, island just north, the one north of that, the one east of main island, last the one with the wheat that egypt had a culture border on.

Feeling closed in by the ocean and having that religous civ next to me I realised I would have to defeat Cleo. The urgency for that raised as I failed to build the great lighthouse and feared that someone would hail marry their way up to our corner of the world. But with a horde of galleys and swordmen I managed to take Cleo out. Then it was a lonely time until future techs.

Yeah that Great library turned out to have been a great investment in shields, for it I got 0 new techs. Whoohoo!

A total of 0 great leaders so far. I'll save my timeline for the QSC.

Originally posted by Yndy
Takeo wrote:
Cleo had a city on the small island to her south, but she did not have Mapmaking! Her culture must have popped a settler out of a hut?

Confirm. I thought he had an extra settler?

That exact same thing happend to me to. I don't know how the heck it happend but my guess is that the capital radius expanded, hit a hut which became a settler. There is no other explanation for this (except that Cleo is a cheat!).

HUT POPPIN'
I poped two huts, both gave me low techs I had ignored to research, don't have my notes here right now but I think the techs where Warrior code and Ceremonial burrial. I found no other huts to pop.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I've tried playing a few recent gotm's though never posting results cause in the end the result was pretty much a mess. I got to say the regent setup is much more appealing to n00bs like myself

I'm in the process of eliminating Egypt, but went for catapults instead of swordies. You may well say the results of trying to bombard their capitol on a hill with 4 fortified spearmen were less than satisfactory. I'll try to get back with a more detailed report of my progress so far after I've taken out Egypt (wishing). Swordies are in the making

 

[Borealis]

Looking at the thread, I suspect I did something sort of similar to Yndy... I only built 2, maybe 3, military units before leaving the first island, and two of them were MP for the city building the Lighthouse. The other warrior hopped in the galley and popped huts- not really worth it as I got barbs and maps, but the barbs slowed Egypt's settling down.

In my game, Cleo didn't get Map making until very late, and built wonders instead- I now am the proud owner of the Oracle, the Hanging Gardens, and the Great Library, all built by Egypt. In order to stop flips, I took the two cities with wonders in the same turn, sending 8 vet swords at each. Shortly afterwards, Egypt attacked my other city, impaling a warrior on my NuMerc.. and starting my Golden Age when I'd just reached the Middle Ages. The 16 swords I'd originally built were more than enough to take the rest of Egypt, and prepped galleys brought NuMercs for garrison duty in the out of the way cities. The Golden Age allowed me to collect cash to rush temples, which avoided cities flipping back to faraway capitals. Cleo wasn't very far behind me in tech- I went for Republic and she went for Monarchy, and I sold tech cheaply for the sole purpose of getting help doing my research. However, she had no iron hooked up to a harbor, and her War Chariots were not in evidence. Until just before I researched Republic, almost all my cities were bare and naked, without garrisons. Then, I poprushed garrisons and temples like mad.

The Great Lighthouse not only speeded up conquest of Egypt, it also helped link up the incense in the south, which allowed me to poprush and put off cathedrals/colosseums until after markets, and markets + harbor=$$$. I didn't get a leader, despite a respectable number of elite promotions, so I'm going to have to hand-build my Forbidden Palace in Memphis.

Some pictures from my game:

The First Encounter of the Third Kind: A Fog Bank Appears

The Second Encounter of the Third Kind: An Evil Volcano

Carthage vs Egypt: The Preliminary SoD

Edit: Fixed picture to avoid horizontal scrolling.

 

[Borealis]

4000 BC: I decide to chance losing the worker movement, and send it to the mountain, revealing wheat on a flood plain and ivory on a forest, as well as more flood plains... I decide to move the settler two squares in order to get a coastal, high food, river city. I'm on Regent, so moving the settler twice won't hurt me as much, and having a coastal first city is essential: the water percentage, and the game description, suggest strongly that I am either alone on an island or with only one other civilization as compared to experiences in the past with similar map settings. This might turn out to be total weed, as it's described in the SG forum, but I'm going to run a farmer's gambit. With this in mind, moving the settler is both viable and desireable. I'll build at least one settler before building a granary, so I can have another settler factory. The worker will walk to the wheat and irrigate it first before anything else.

(IT): Wow, I'm glad I turned all 'show moves' and animations off... as it is the lag is at least 15-20 seconds. The maxed-out civs and huge map SG I'm currently in doesn't lag as much, with multiple cities- I guess the new features, whatever they turn out to be, take a lot of memory.

3900 BC: Carthage founded, starts settler. Pottery started at 100%... I have to assume that I might be alone, and will need Map Making ASAP. The AI shouldn't attack me immediately on Regent, and getting another fast city will help more than exploration- the spot near the starting location at the river's end looks good, as do the flood plains to the west, as far as another city.

3650 BC: Having irrigated the wheat, the worker crosses the river to develop flood plains for a possible new city. Carthage, at size two, will grow in 5 and produce a settler at 8 turns working the wheat and the forest. When the cultural boundaries expand, it will be able to have good food and shield production, grabbing forest tiles and flood plains. I'm going to go for a dense build, and may disband cities later- I've already decided not to try for a cultural victory, and so probably won't have many buildings early on other than granaries or harbors. An odd temple or two might help large wonder-building cities.

3450 BC: Slider MM as we can get Pottery and 4 more gold in 1 turn. Every little bit helps when negotiating with miserly AIs.

3400 BC: Carthage grows to size 3, the cultural boundaries expand, and I assign lux tax to 10% as a citizen's unhappy. Potteryis discovered and break-even research started on Writing.

3350 BC: Some MMing of Carthage to time the settler build with growth.

3200 BC: Carthage builds settler; starts another.

3100 BC: Utica founded; starts granary. Once it grows, I will let it use the ivory forest, and Carthage can use the river forest. The worker starts connecting the ivory, so no more lux tax is necessary.

(IT): My palace gets a lawn, in celebration of our expansion.

3000 BC: Perfect worker timing: Carthage grows to size 3 just as the worker finishes the Ivory road.

(IT):Lord McCauley makes a list of the most advanced nations of the world, and we aren't even in the top 8. We appear to be facing tough competition.

2950 BC: Carthage MMed to grow and build settler in 4. Worker starts developing area around Carthage and will soon head east.

2750 BC: Carthage builds settler; starts another. Utica and Carthage MMed to share tiles appropriately, and Utica swapped to settler. Building a granary would take too long- I might build one before I send out settlers into the jungle to the north, but right now new cities will be able to help build settlers themselves.

2710 BC: Sending the worker east is vetoed in favor of developing Utica. The new city to the east will have sufficient shields to make its own.

2630 BC: Leptis Magna founded; starts warrior to explore fugly jungle, and queues worker. This city will actually build a granary as its terrain is shield-heavy rather than food-heavy, but needs a worker to develop it.

2550 BC: More MM of Carthage and Utica- dense builds, to be effective, are extremely time-consuming as the AI does not know how to MM effectively. The goal is to keep each city either at or close to size 3.

2510 BC: Writing discovered; Map Making started.

2430 BC: Leptis Magna builds a warrior, our first military unit, and starts a worker. The warrior heads north along the coast, into the jungle.

2390 BC: Carthage builds settler; starts another. Settler heads southeast, to look at what appears to be a hill under the shadows next to the elephant. Utica MMed.

2310 BC: Utica builds settler; starts another. Settler heads north into the jungle.

2230 BC: Leptis Magna builds worker; starts granary. Theveste founded on hills to southeast in order to grab whales; starts granary prebuild for galley, MMed for shields.

2150 BC: Hippo founded near Utica; starts granary. The good/evil Cracker, map creater, has created an island all to ourselves, but a small island all to ourselves, and no barbs have shown up... the farmer's gambit wasn't even a risk, but I didn't know that when starting up. It seems my strategic gamble has paid off- I'm happy with the amount of cities I have right now, and industrious workers will make jungle clearing easier.

2030 BC: The first sign of the 'special units', fog appears, menacing whales. We'll probably have to clear it before we can use them.

1990 BC: Warrior can see most of everything, and is now sent to the southeast cities to get on a galley when we get them.

1950 BC: St. Augustine reports that we are the 4th happiest Civ in the world; this is good,as it means not may civs have more than one luxury.

1870 BC: Slider MM to get gold when we get Map Making next turn.

1830 BC: Map Making discovered; Literature started as I need a probable safe backup in case I miss the Lighthouse. Plebius Magna founded. Production in Theveste swapped to galley, due in 5.

1790 BC: Utica builds settler; starts another. Settler heads to middle of jungle.

1700 BC: Sabratha founded; starts granary.

1675 BC: Hippo builds our first galley. The warrior gets in, ready to come out if he sees any huts, and Hippo starts another galley to act as ferry. We're going to run out of space on the main island soon.

1650 BC: Galley defeats unit of fog, losing 1 hp. The one attack/turn of the galley really slows it down battling its way through the fog as it goes west.

1600 BC: Leptis Magna builds a granary, and starts a warrior for MP- it will build the Lighthouse after it gets a garrison of 2. The next big push will be clearing the jungle.

1575 BC: Our galley redlines, but makes it out of the fogbank. Slider MM as Lit is due in 1 turn. Bamicus Speedica founded. Our galley decides to head south, as the minimap shows us to the north.

1525 BC: Warrior jumps out of galley, popping hut and getting barbs, but seeing yellow borders. This is probably Egypt.

1500 BC: The warrior survives multiple attacks, and rejoins the galley, which goes to find the mysterious foreigners. Leptis Magna builds its second warrior, and starts the Great Lighthouse. Lux tax to 10% as Utica has grown too fast, even with MMing.

1475 BC: Carthage builds settler; starts another.

1450 BC: Utica builds settler; starts worker production.

1425 BC: Contact with Egypt! We trade her Writing + 19 gold for Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, and her World Map. I decide to trade Literature away- if she builds the Great Library I'll capture it from her, and she doesn't know any other AI civs, and I don't want to give her galleys. Philosophy + Literature gets Iron Working, The Wheel, and 12 gold. She still has Mysticism and Warrior Code, but I don't want to trade away Map Making yet. She is building the Oracle in Thebes, but we don't have enough cash for an embassy yet.

She has very few cities on a tiny island, horses, and no iron.

1350 BC: Rusicade founded, the last city on the main island.

1325 BC: Utica builds worker; starts barracks; MMed for shields. I need defense to stop aggravating AI threats, and a possible invasion once Cleo gets Map Making. Hippo builds granary; starts worker production and is a worker factory from now on.

1300 BC: Plebis Magna builds worker; starts another- it's too corrupt to get anything else out of it. Galley, dropping off settler, sees Mt. Etna, holding Yndy and Karasu captive. (SS)

1275 BC: Emanidae founded right next to Mt. Etna; starts Numidian to dispose of the threat and defend the city.

1225 BC: Slider MM as Code of Laws is almost done.

1200 BC: Code of Laws discovered; research started on Mathematics- I want temples and/or another luxury before I revolt. Warrior pops hut northeast of Egypt and gets maps.

1175 BC: Egyptians start Colossus and Great Library. Great- Cleo won't be building much settlers or military anytime soon.

1150 BC: The Theon Oikema is spotted, holding Creepster and Aeson captive. (SS)

1125 BC: Code of Laws traded to Egypt for Mysticism, WM, and 1 gold.

1100 BC: Creepster and Aeson are liberated as our valiant warrior braves the volcano. Thymiaterium founded; starts Numidian. Workers start building road to get off the hill.

1075 BC: Utica builds barracks; starts Numidian. Galley picks up warrior and sends it to brave Mt. Etna.

1050 BC: Mathematics discovered; Currency started. Warrior redlines, but liberates Yndy and Karasu from Mt. Etna; they start roads to get out. Another galley sees Mt. Vesuvius, holding a barbarian warrior, a PhilMartin, and an Ainwood. There are horses and incense on this fertile island.

1000 BC: I give Cleo Math for Warrior Code, WM, and 49 gold, mostly to see that she does inded have Horseback Riding but not Polytheism yet. QSC save made, and screenshot. Lux tax up temporarily before Carthage builds its settler.

The Carthagnian Despotism in 1000 BC:

After this, I took sparse notes. And yes, I do leave the reasons I do things down if I think I'll forget them later to avoid brain spazzes.

975 BC: Carthage builds settler.

950 BC: Sabratha builds a temple, our first cultural building.

900 BC: Emanidae builds Numidian, our first UU.

775 BC: Caricus Murus founded near incense on southern island.

730 BC: Currency discovered. Research started on Republic- when Caricus Murus gets a harbor, we'll have two luxuries, and with the jungle clearing operations almost complete, our cities can afford to build infrastructure now. Cities building workers swapped to Numidians, and Caricus Murus swapped to worker to connect the incense as a warrior has arrived to protect the city from barbarians. Much whipping occurs between now and Republic as cities need Numidians and temples to go into a representative government.

630 BC: Great Lighthouse built in Leptis Magna. PhilMartin and Ainwood are liberated from Mt. Vesuvius.

610 BC: Gytta founded.

530 BC: Thebes builds The Oracle.

470 BC: Acra founded.

450 BC: Melitta founded.

370 BC: Arambys founded.

330 BC: We discover Republic and revolt immediately into 3 turns of anarchy! Cleo has Polytheism and Construction, but I don't trade yet.

290 BC: Karkon Teichos founded.

270 BC: Moscow builds the Great Wall. Ok, that means Cleo and I are way behind. I should trade soon if I want any of the Middle Ages wonders.

250 BC: Temple rushed in Karikon Teichos, and Currency + all of my leftover gold but 8 traded for Polytheism and HBR. I'm going to research Construction myself. Sabratha starts palace prebuild for Middle Ages wonder.

After this, while researching Feudalism, I saved the gold to upgrade 16 warriors to swords, built the SoD, took Egypt's main island, and left the spoiler thread as far as the tech qualifications.

 

[Renata]

I noticed that some of the screen shots had the city of Leptis Minor. I think in my game (PTW 1.14) I got Plebis Major instead.

Renata

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by cracker
FYI, for anyone who may be keeping a unit names list, the players who found the eqWorker hiding under the volcano with Aeson should recognize that eqWorker as really being "Creepster" in disguise.

Creepster and Aeson went to Mardi Gras together and Creepster got so wangdoozled that he forgot what his name was.

Or perhaps the story should be that Creepster worked so hard on receiving all the Gotm16 game files that this made him want to forget what his name was.

Thanks for clearing that up. Since I didn't see Creepster there but I saw "eqWorker" and Aeson instead, can I just go ahead and claim credit for finding both Creepster and Aeson? Does anyone have any objection to this?

 

[alamo]

Build Carth on flooplain - disease 3-5 times early, none in last 1000+ years.

Found Egypt w/4 isles - focused on exapansion instead of explore.

Had to settle for GrLib - turned out to be ok later.

Took Egypt in 2 wars - their GrLight was invaluable to promote trade within my empire.

Never got a GrLeader, even though I prolonged the war a looong time.


I wanted a FP early on the Egyptian isles. Oh well, I guess that just means I'll have to conquere new lands for the FP.


I did get Leonardos, which will be useful for keeping the troops current w/o the hassle.

Found an unexpected seafaring trait that broadened my horizons - not sure how much to spoil this one.

 

[dales]

Following up on my quick start post.

I continued my expansion, building another city on the main island, two more on the island just to the right, and another on the island just to the right of that one. I got the Great Lighthouse, and was well on my way to building the Great Library while I researched up to Republic. I had one galley making efforts to cut through the fog to get to the island to the south, but it was slow going as I often had to send it back to Utica for repairs.

Then I met up with the Egyptians, and suddenly went into a panic. It was good that they did not have map making, since this allowed me to neglect defense for a while longer. But the problem I saw was that they had no contact with anyone else. Suddenly my Great Library decision was not looking too hot.

What's up with them having cities on two different islands though, when they don't have map making? They had built the Great Wall already (and other cultures had built the Oracle, Colossus, and Pyramids). I traded Philosophy for Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial. I considered continuing to trade, but decided to keep them as backwards as possible since once they finish expanding we were likely to have to fight. Further exploring by some galleys told me they had room to grow for a bit more.

At 50BC I had reached as far as I can speak for this thread by the spoiler conditions. I had 5 cities on my main island, 3 on the next one over, one on the island over from that, and one on the island to the south, for a total of 10. I had the Lighthouse and was a turn away from the Great Library. Egypt had 6 cities, and there were two islands to the east and southeast of Egypt which were still waiting to be settled. And my gallies were poised to try to brave the oceans to see if I could salvage some use from the Great Library that was about to be mine...

 

[pilferman]

Yndy - I couldn't help but notice that you didn't have cities named "Bamicus Speedica" or "Plebis Magna" on your home continent. What's wrong? Can't stand the thought of these players "assisting" you in accomplishing whatever goals you set? My, my.....

 

[Shillen]

NeoCarthage didn't have those city names.